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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/8/2009 11:22:02 PM   
Rule


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(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/8/2009 11:39:07 PM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		This subject was brought up years ago to the sitcom character Archie Bunker. As he so eloquently put it, "Would it make you happy if they were pushed out of windows?"

People kill people. They did it with rocks and sticks. Then they did it with knives and swords. Now they do it with guns. In the future, they'll use something else. Blaming the gun is like blaming the rocks and the sticks that the cavemen used to kill each other. The blame should lie at the feet of the jerk using the gun, not the gun.

As for this shooting in the op, there are still some unanswered questions. Was the person shot trespassing on private property? Why was the 82 year old running around with a shotgun? What factors are we not being told that are relevant to the total picture? As a horse enthusiast, I will not walk my horse on property that I am not 100% certain I have permission to be on. It is neither safe nor legal just to take my babies anywhere I want to take them.

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/9/2009 6:58:03 AM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
And I have stated in previous threads that there should be licensing, not waiting periods. Part of the vetting would be a check for mental health issues in the past. Regardless it should be the State, and not the Feds, that handle this for the local citizenry. I have also stated this countless times in other threads.

You've said previous archaic laws don't affect today’s society because new laws have been created in each state to deal with unprecedented issues that arise. The problem is each state creates it's laws by interpreting what it's pre-existing obligations are to the constitution. This is why the system varies state to state on an issue that needs to be dealt with by an overall centralised system of control. The fact is getting background checks is a pain because in one state there is the mechanism to do it quickly but in another state individual privacy take precedence. So you will never have this quick comprehensive backgrounds check centrally controlled because each state will argue it doesn't have to provide this exacting criteria of service to meet its obligations or that other issues such as privacy are more important and override such obligations.

The EU has a similar problem with the human rights act, some nation states decide that certain parts of it aren’t for them so they work around it in a way that basically plays only lip service to the intent of it. It isn't then even clear if each member state is meeting their obligations or if they are ok to interpret it the way they have. What is required is clarification of the pre-existing law by a consensus of state representatives.


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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/9/2009 9:08:41 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		Intersting timing for this thread. Friday night I was awoken by a loud noise. I almost grabbed my gun but I layed there for a minute, if someone were breaking in there would be some subsequent noise. Of course even if not it may have been one of my friends all drunk wanting a place to crash. At any rate I know better than to shoot first and ask questions later, but from what I am getting, the difference is that my firearms are lethal.

It will be interesting to see if the full story about this ever comes out. It may just go by the wayside and become a statistic like most issues. I for one, would be very interested in the details.

T

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/9/2009 4:44:12 PM   
rikigrl


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Joined: 5/14/2009
Status: offline 		This is a very emotional isuue for me at the moment, just a few days ago and only 20 miles away 3 women were slaughtered in a fitness center by a gun nut who had 30 round clips for his hand guns. The attempt to reason that people kill with knives, stones, or clubs is absolutely inane, (other adjectives come to mind but i'll be civil) give me one example of a drive by stoning that killed 3 innocent women. Yes, murders do happen by means other than a gun but a gun makes it so very much easier for those who intend harm to others. As for per capita statistics here's a link.. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders-firearms-per-capita  #8 on the list should be an embarrassment to any reasonable American. I realise that Pandora's box has been  open for so long that nothing can be done, that we have to inure ourselves to the everyday slaughter, it is just such a sad statement of our society. 

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/9/2009 5:04:49 PM   
zenny


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Status: offline 		That's your problem. You're too emotional to use logic. Cool down, sleep on it, and think about it.

To aid in your currently unstable thought process I pose a question and answers in multiple choice.

What stops a person with a gun who is shooting innocents the fastest?
a) dropping to the floor and crying
b) calling 911
c) pulling out your gun and shooting back

And remember kids, there are no wrong answers. Except for the wrong answers.

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/9/2009 7:09:56 PM   
rikigrl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zenny

That's your problem. You're too emotional to use logic. Cool down, sleep on it, and think about it.

To aid in your currently unstable thought process I pose a question and answers in multiple choice.

What stops a person with a gun who is shooting innocents the fastest?
a) dropping to the floor and crying
b) calling 911
c) pulling out your gun and shooting back

And remember kids, there are no wrong answers. Except for the wrong answers.



yeah, that's all we need, more nuts with guns walking around, anybody who thinks that that is a good solution is the one with unstable thought processes

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/9/2009 7:21:13 PM   
Joenextdoor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rikigrl

quote:

ORIGINAL: zenny

That's your problem. You're too emotional to use logic. Cool down, sleep on it, and think about it.

To aid in your currently unstable thought process I pose a question and answers in multiple choice.

What stops a person with a gun who is shooting innocents the fastest?
a) dropping to the floor and crying
b) calling 911
c) pulling out your gun and shooting back

And remember kids, there are no wrong answers. Except for the wrong answers.



yeah, that's all we need, more nuts with guns walking around, anybody who thinks that that is a good solution is the one with unstable thought processes
So in your mind everyone who owns a gun must be a nut?  You are free to chose to be unarmed all you want.  You are free to rely on 911 all you want.  Great Britain has gone down this path of disarmament which was an emotional reaction to a mass killing.  Since those "evil" guns were taken away from law abiding citizens, crimes have steadily gone up.  There are still gun crimes, but How can that be since they confiscated them???  Stabbing has also become a very popular method of murder, as well as bludgeoning.  You can take away one tool for criminals to murder with, but they will find another.  You have done nothing to address their criminal heart.  So three people were killed by a criminal with a gun.  I hate to tell you, but if he had a sharp samurai sword, the carnage could have been alot worse than three people.  You will never completely stop criminals, but if you put some teeth into punishing them, instead of coddling them, you will do more to reduce those numbers than taking the emotional road of banning guns. 

< Message edited by Joenextdoor -- 8/9/2009 7:23:17 PM >

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/9/2009 8:05:22 PM   
rikigrl


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Status: offline 		In the first place i don't believe that everybody who owns a gun is a nut, those who are so insecure that they want to carry their gun everywhere need a bit of counseling though. I have no problem with long guns...well some problems but we can't take away all the toys now can we? As for your statement about Britain perhaps we should read before we speak...  http://www.city-data.com/forum/politics-other-controversies/706150-murder-rate-england-wales-hits-20-a.html  648 murders inclusive of all methods in a population of over 54 million, while the U.S. on the other hand is on a par with some of the most backward third world countries. In other news, this is another pointless discussion which is why i normally refrain  from commenting in the forums. It all brings to mind a Popeye cartoon where Olive Oyl is elected president in one of Popeye's dreams, she makes a proposal in one of the houses and one side chants in unison "we accept it" while the other side pipes in "we reject it" and they go back and forth solving nothing...kinda like these days in Washington, and here, in the forums, so, this is my last comment on the subject. 

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/9/2009 8:20:50 PM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		Some people just insist that we bring a knife to a gunfight. They have never experienced anything like it and are operating solely on what they have been told. But the fact of the matter is if there is a gun nut shooting people, it takes a gun not nut to stop him, unless he runs out of ammo.

Refute that. Think they killed these shooters with knives, bows and arrows ? Hell no, they were in the sights of a real shooter who knows what they are doing. Only a gun works. I would be reluctant to engage in something like that because my euesight is not what it once was, but if I could get a clear enough shot I would. It just has to be clear to me. I could get the gunman off of you in notime flat with a gun. How long do you think it would take with a knife ?

OK I will admit I have a good IQ and alot of machines and tools. I could make a gun easily. They can't ban what people can make, at least not effectively. I could probably hide a gun in your shoe.

I have faced the life and death situation, and I would rather have a gun. And no matter how bad I was then, I have grown up, and really I never killed anyone out of spite or greed nor anything but self preservation. Am I a gun nut ? Do you think I would go into a McD's and open up on a bunch of people I don't even know just because I am in a bad mood ? Hell no.

Responsible gun owners also save more lives than LEOs because they are right there on the spot. Remember the joke, when seconds count the police are only minutes away.

It is a matter of personal responsibility, and of course sanity. Consider your actions carfully because they cannot be undone. If you can live by that I might even give you a gun. Because there ARE gun nuts out there, and people who go "postal". You can't stop them with anything other than a gun. You want to go reason with someone who just killed half your family even though he did not know them from Adam ? Or would you just rather drop him and be done with it ?

YES, guns kill people, that is what they are designed to do . They are a tool and when you need to kill someone they are quite effective. YES cars drive people to places they shouldn't be, they also kill. I can give you lessons on how to kill with a car that will make the car almost as dangerous as the gun, absolutely. Cars are great for that shit, and then you have a defense claiming it was an accident. My people and I know all about it.

Fact is, a killing machine is just that, but very few of them run on automatic. Mostly some person has to pull (squeeze) the trigger. I have never seen a car start itself and start runnng people over, except in that one movie, which really sucked by the way. Ruger for example takes great pains in their design to make sure that if their weapon fires, someone pulled the trigger. They used a floating firing pin to achieve this. So if you ever have a Ruger and you shoot someone, don't try to use the defense that it "Just went off". Many LEOs used to carry Rugers.

T

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/9/2009 8:26:54 PM   
Joenextdoor


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Joined: 9/8/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rikigrl

In the first place i don't believe that everybody who owns a gun is a nut, those who are so insecure that they want to carry their gun everywhere need a bit of counseling though. I have no problem with long guns...well some problems but we can't take away all the toys now can we? As for your statement about Britain perhaps we should read before we speak...  http://www.city-data.com/forum/politics-other-controversies/706150-murder-rate-england-wales-hits-20-a.html  648 murders inclusive of all methods in a population of over 54 million, while the U.S. on the other hand is on a par with some of the most backward third world countries. In other news, this is another pointless discussion which is why i normally refrain  from commenting in the forums. It all brings to mind a Popeye cartoon where Olive Oyl is elected president in one of Popeye's dreams, she makes a proposal in one of the houses and one side chants in unison "we accept it" while the other side pipes in "we reject it" and they go back and forth solving nothing...kinda like these days in Washington, and here, in the forums, so, this is my last comment on the subject. 
The murder rate may have dropped recently.  For a number of years following the ban, the numbers rose.  I have not looked at any data out of England in probably two years now.  The murder rate here is down too I believe.  Neither have anything to do with gun control.  You still cannot get around the fact that a gun is a mindless, inanimate object, and it does not cause a person to commit crimes.  A gun is no more to blame for a senseless death, than a car is.  Approximately 50,000 people die on the roads here each year, which is roughly the total number we lost in the entire Vietnam War, yet I do not hear a call for car control.  Cars would be easier to ban, since driving is a priviledge, and firearms ownership is a right.  I have guns, alot of them, and I have never killed anyone.  You can take guns away from people all you want, but criminals will still get them.  Drugs are illegal, yet the street is full of it.  They tried to ban alcohol in the 20's, and we see how well that went.  You will never end crimes committed by guns, whether you ban them, or simply leave things as they are.  You can make a difference if you put teeth into punishing people.  When the punishment is not worth the crime, you will make a difference.  The last point is, if gun ownership per capita is directly related to gun crimes, then Switzerland should have blood running in the streets, but it doesn't. 

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/9/2009 9:03:03 PM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		Term, Joe, some people cannot seem to understand that it takes a person wielding the object to make it kill. They want to believe that guns make people evil instead of believing that evil people murder people simply because they are evil. Murderers will commit murder regardless of what weapon they have to use.
Place any one of hundreds of people I know on a rampage, arm them with a sword, and you could have dozens slaughtered in minutes. Fortunately, these people are all respectable and responsible citizens. And not even one of their swords have leapt into the air and committed murder without them.
The weapon without the lunatic is simply a piece of metal and plastic.

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Soldiers died for your right to be ungrateful.

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/9/2009 9:35:09 PM   
couldbemage


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Status: offline 		I'm quite certain I could kill more than 3 unarmed women with one of my swords.

...and how has that drug war been working out? Take away rights from everyone to accomplish nearly nothing?

...and we don't need cars. They are wasteful and deadly. Nearly as dangerous as swimming pools.


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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/9/2009 9:43:28 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
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Status: offline 		IK, my expoundment may astound.

I have been accused of being racist, anti-Semitic and sexist. All for good reason of course, but what I am about to say is from a Jewish Woman who is a licensed psychiatrist, and writes for JPFO. If you don't know JPFO is a group of Jews who do NOT want gun rights taken away. I think they are an ORG. They have a website.

I read her article on the subject and found it quite good, compelling and informative. In it she asserts that people who support gun control are projecting. To illustrate she used the example of someone shooting another over a parking place. What she said was that the person does not feel confident in their own mind that they will not shoot someone for a parking space and since most people assume that everyone is just like them, project that image upon everyone. It is a matter of fear, it is a basic non-confidence in the people around you, brought on by your own mental hangups, and as I said, people tend to think everyone is just like them. She also has a program to introducde new people to firearms and disuade those fears, and teach.

I have it printed, to find it in electronic form would be hard, unless of course it is still up on JPFO org. People think that I would pull out a gun and say "I'll take that last Beanie Baby", when it is actually they who might be tempted to do such a thing. That is defined as projection.

Little do they know I was there for a can of nuts and I don't care about anything else, I am a Man and I do not shop. There is nothing in that store worth raising a gun over, and that includes the money. It can be tempting, but to give up my home, my life and all that for what, a hundred grand ? Think again.

But that is not the way they see it. You are a threat just by having something capable of killing them. I don't know how many ways everyone around here knows to kill someone with their bare hands (ex Marines excel at this) but I know about seventy.

So do these people want me cut my arms off or would they rather just lock me up for life, IN CASE I decide to kill someone ?

Look in my silverware drawer, in there is a knife that could easily kill someone. So this means that I can't have a good knife with which to cut pizza because of their paranoia ?

That is not how this country is supposed to fucking work.

T

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/10/2009 12:07:59 AM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rikigrl

Why is it that the people who are in favor of sanity as far as gun ownership goes are referred to as "nuts"??? The number of people killed by guns in the U.S. is an abomination when compared to the sane, civilised, countries of the world. The N.R.A. is akin to a terrorist organisation imho.


And just how many times has the U.S. been invaded by foreign army's?

Just how many "gun" crimes are committed by criminals who aren't supposed to have them in the first place?

BTW there's no such thing as a "30 round clip" for a handgun, handguns don't use "clips".

The NRA is as much of a terrorist organization as the Rainbow coalition.

The burden of a free society is having to deal with the good as well as the bad.

< Message edited by subrob1967 -- 8/10/2009 12:14:36 AM >

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/10/2009 5:00:59 AM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus
You foist Celine Dion on us and have the nerve to complain about this?





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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/10/2009 5:05:02 AM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967
handguns don't use "clips".


Sure they do. It's where you put the bullets for a semi-auto handgun. You load them into the clip and then insert that into the bottom of the weapon. The clip, or cartridge clip is of course also known as a magazine by the overzealous who insist that theirs is the only accepted terminology, despite clip being increasingly accepted vernacular "off-range."

http://www.answers.com/topic/cartridge-clip


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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/10/2009 5:08:01 AM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rikigrl
In the first place i don't believe that everybody who owns a gun is a nut, those who are so insecure that they want to carry their gun everywhere need a bit of counseling though.


I bet those three women wish they had one with them.


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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/10/2009 9:52:11 AM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight
Term, Joe, some people cannot seem to understand that it takes a person wielding the object to make it kill. They want to believe that guns make people evil instead of believing that evil people murder people simply because they are evil. Murderers will commit murder regardless of what weapon they have to use.
Place any one of hundreds of people I know on a rampage, arm them with a sword, and you could have dozens slaughtered in minutes. Fortunately, these people are all respectable and responsible citizens. And not even one of their swords have leapt into the air and committed murder without them.
The weapon without the lunatic is simply a piece of metal and plastic.

Well I wasn't going to say anything more on this thread but then this tired old argument above came up.

A gun has one function to pretend it is an object similar to a hammer or a car is nonsense. Yes people can kill with cars and hammers but such items were not created with that specific design intent.

A man that buys a gun has indicated to me that he is dangerous by the fact he has bought a weapon capable of killing someone. You see you've got it back to front guns don't make people evil or dangerous all the do is helpfully label all the dangerous people for us in society, so that the government knows who to spy on.

Except for that crazy Mr Smith he bought a gun thinking he could use it to nail he's roof tiles down.

To be carrying swords is also illegal here.

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 8/10/2009 9:54:43 AM >

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/10/2009 11:02:58 AM   
Starbuck09


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Status: offline 		Loki I bet what those women really wish is that this person did'nt have a gun in the first place. Pesonally I think America could do with having much stricter gun laws. In the U.K. we have not been invaded by a foreign  army for 1000 years. That is not down to the fact that we have armed citizens. I would be genuinely interested to knnow if there are any available statistics that show how many crimes are prevented by the victim having a gun versus the amount of crime commited by someone wielding one. Most people handling a gun are as much a danger to themselves as others and too many [not all] see a weapon, a gun in particular as an extension of their penis. The problem with drawing a gun in self defence is that you had better be sure the other person backs down or you are faced with few choices all of which are bad.

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