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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/10/2009 12:00:55 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

The problem with drawing a gun in self defence is that you had better be sure the other person backs down or you are faced with few choices all of which are bad.


Not if you follow two simple rules:

Rule number one - no bluffing or attempts at negotiation. If the situation is serious enough that you have to pull your gun out then it is serious enough to shoot.

Rule number two - shoot to kill. If the situation is serious enough to shoot then it is serious enough to kill. Don't give the bastard a second chance. If by some miracle of God he survives then whoop-de-fucking-doo for him. Otherwise, say hello to Jesus for me, asshole.

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 8/10/2009 12:02:09 PM >

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/10/2009 1:16:24 PM   
Starbuck09


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Status: offline 		That is fair enough in of itelf Michael but to make those kinds of judgements, in my opinion, requires training. Training provided by the military law enforcement and possibly a strict civilian programme. The vast majori of people purchasing weapons have no training whatsoever and so dreadful mistakes are the order of the day.

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/10/2009 1:32:28 PM   
DMFParadox


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

That is fair enough in of itelf Michael but to make those kinds of judgements, in my opinion, requires training. Training provided by the military law enforcement and possibly a strict civilian programme. The vast majori of people purchasing weapons have no training whatsoever and so dreadful mistakes are the order of the day.


'Dreadful mistakes are the order of the day' is a myth.

However, I agree that some basic training in both the care and operation of a gun, and in your legal rights when using it to defend yourself, should be mandatory. I'd love to see a class like that in high schools across the country. It should dispel a lot of misperceptions.

Oddly enough, I just wrote a journal entry about firearms, and then I see this scroll by. Neat.

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/10/2009 1:35:54 PM   
Starbuck09


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Status: offline 		Is it though Paradox? If i'm wrong on that issue then fair enough but the prerequisites for owning a firearm in america don't seem stringent enough to ensure that it is only people who know what they are doing handling them and that must surely be a recipe for accidents?

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/10/2009 1:50:31 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

That is fair enough in of itelf Michael but to make those kinds of judgements, in my opinion, requires training. Training provided by the military law enforcement and possibly a strict civilian programme. The vast majori of people purchasing weapons have no training whatsoever and so dreadful mistakes are the order of the day.


I've got nothing against training but just because some dim bulb accidently shoots someone is no reason to violate my rights. I got plenty of good training from my father and grandfather. From them I learned, amongst other things, that:

"There is no such thing as an unloaded gun."

"Don't point it at anything you don't want to kill."

"Guns don't kill people. People kill people. But guns make it a hell of a lot easier to kill people."

Start training them young, I say, like the girl in this video.

Some people will be aghast at this but I applaud her parents. There wouldn't even be a gun issue if everybody trained their child like this. There would be a lot less crime too. Ten or fifteen years from now when she is on her own and some creepzoid rapist comes crashing through her door - he's going to be one sorry assed mother fucker. You could almost feel sorry for him. Almost.

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/10/2009 8:26:00 PM   
Irishknight


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Status: offline 		FC, I have yet to claim that a gun is anything but a weapon. I refuse to blame a piece of steel and plastic for the actions of the person using it. Blaming the object is a copout. Its another piece of "Society made him do it" bullshit. The killer made himself do it and he would have found a way regardless. Instead of worrying about getting rid of objects, we should be getting rid of people who go into health clubs and kill productive members of society.
Who gives a shit why the bastard killed 3 women or what he used? The reality is that he chose to do it. That means he needs to made to go away to protect other women at other health clubs. Whether we lock him up for life or (my vote) put him down like the rabid animal that he is, make hiom and people like him go away in a manner that makes them no danger ever again.
Am I an advocate of training every person who buys a gun in safety and their responsibilities? Hell yes.

The truth is not a "tired old argument." People, not objects, are to blame for murders. That is reality no matter how you want to color it.

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 6:37:15 AM   
DomImus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rikigrl
that we have to inure ourselves to the everyday slaughter


Less than 3 out of 100,000 or 0.0027% . That's a slaughter, alright. This is why I am not afraid of the anti-gun nuts taking my firearm from me. They cannot discuss this issue in reasonable and rationale terms and as long as they cannot my rights are safe.

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 8:38:56 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zenny

What stops a person with a gun who is shooting innocents the fastest?
a) dropping to the floor and crying
b) calling 911
c) pulling out your gun and shooting back

And remember kids, there are no wrong answers. Except for the wrong answers.



How about

d) we maker it harder for disturbed people to acquire guns?

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 9:15:37 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		rml, not in this country. That's how it is.

Speaking of firearms rules, I agree, if you pull, use it and use it right away. First of all there are people into martial arts who can get across a room in a half a second, I have seen it. Once they see that gun, if you don't use it they might shove it down your throat.

Buddy of mine was talking about his Dad. Drinking, but not established that he was drunk, gave him a loaded gun and did not tell him. Said just practice with it out the window. Then you squeeze the trigger, not really pull the trigger. All that. I guess he almost had a heart attack at age twelve when the thing went off. So he is bitching about it but I saw it another way. By now this guy knows for sure to ALWAYS assume the gun is loaded, and if applicable, chambered. Alot less accidents that way.

There are also alot less acidents if 80 year olds don't shoot people for simply walking on their property. I don't fucking care, gun rights are rights, but that was, as far as I can tell, completely uncalled for. That's why I lay in wait the other night rather than grabbing the .38. Because if I do, it will be the last thing somebody sees.

What gets me is that people in other countries are so braiwashed or something. They really think it is better to be defenseless. Well maybe not the Swiss. There and in a few towns in the US each home with an able bodied male was required to have a firearm and ammunition. Such places have enjoyed the lowest crime rates in the world. The numbers do speak for themselves I think.

This guy in his eighties, maybe was just stupid. My buddy Jim Watt was among the worst pragmatists I have ever known. He would've said "This guy is eighty and he is that stupid, I bet he was a real fucking idiot in the past".

People, if you have guns, use them responsibly, don't make our ongoing fight to keep the right even harder. If you don't like guns don't buy one. Likewise if you don't like abortion, don't have one. Nobody is going to strap you down and......... wait, this is CM so maybe I'll just stop there.

T

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 9:23:58 AM   
zenny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: zenny

What stops a person with a gun who is shooting innocents the fastest?
a) dropping to the floor and crying
b) calling 911
c) pulling out your gun and shooting back

And remember kids, there are no wrong answers. Except for the wrong answers.



How about

d) we maker it harder for disturbed people to acquire guns?



That is such an idiotic response to my statement that it is hard to formulate a succinct response about how idiotic it is. It's just dumb and shows ignorance on so many levels; even the ones it tries to segue into. Oh well. You still have someone killing innocence, care to try again?

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 9:35:50 AM   
Starbuck09


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Status: offline 		Why is it idiotic to suggest that stricter gun laws are needed Zenny?

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 9:47:15 AM   
Starbuck09


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Status: offline 		Termyn8or people in other countries are not brainwashed because they dislike citizenry having ready access to firearms.  Out of interest have you ever killed someone? If a time comes when you have to pull your .38 and you have not you may find the act harder to commit than you think. A firearm is a weapon of enormous power in my opinion it should only be wielded by someone who has had the strictest training in doing so. I think such training should be mandatory before being issued a gun.

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 9:59:37 AM   
Irishknight


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Status: offline 		I just realized how all of us seem to have completely overlooked the fact that the crazy old man was firing bean bags. People cry out for less lethal ammunition then they grow angry when it gets used. I'd be a lot happier being shot with a bean bag for trespassing than I was when a farmer shot me in the butt with rock salt for stealing apples as a teenager.

Starbuck, I agree with the training idea. Every year we have hunting accidents all over the country because some guy from the big city decides to buy a rifle and go hunting for the first time with no training in hunting safety. I would bet many of the other "accidents" come from a similar lack of training. Had I not recieved the training I was given when I carried firearm as part of my job, at least one person would have been killed. Since that same training also saved my life more than once, the number is at the very least up to two.

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 10:16:35 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		Star, I don't really disagree. I think that there should be no such thing as a driver's license either though, it should be taught in school. After that, fuck up and either pay or go to jail. Same here.

As far as killing someone, except in self defense I can say no. I would rather not go into the details but just so you know, I did not do it with a gun.

We can go into what I think should be required to get a high school diploma though real quick.

Drive a car
Handle a firearm
Balance a checkbook

Among other things of course. In the US, the educational system fails on all three. This should be part and parcel of becoming an adult. You are responsible for your actions, so should not school teach you what those actions should be ? If niot we should just abolish the whole damn system.

I am not saying that teens should carry guns to their parties when they are young and dumb and full of cum. But I wish my 68 year old Mother could just have a gun strapped to her thigh as she goes shopping. If someone really got the drop on her she would be a catch.

I will reiterate a true story. My buddy Tony was at an ATM, took out some money, turned around and was faced with a robber who said "I'll take that money". Now if you know me and my ilk you know better, but this poor sap didn't Tony is really quite tough and he said "Got a knife ?"., "Got a gun ?". With answers in the negatory he proceed to kick the living shit out of this would be robber and took his money !

With Mom it would be BOOM. And as much as she would not take this advice, I say just get in your car and go. Let them deal with the corpse in the morning. Of course use hollow ponts to not worry abut ballistics. If you intend to rob and steral, this is the risk you take. Personal responsibility, which is being addressed in another thread so I won't go into it here.

There is a charge in Ohio called strongarm robbery. That is when somebody is big and tough or adept at the martial arts who beats people up and takes their money. If they would have used a gun you would say not to let them have a gun. But they didn't use a gun, so what do we do, cut their arms and legs off ?

After going through kitchen knives and getting pushed out of windows, this cuts it all the way down. If you want to argue further, it is VERY indicative of brainwashing. Think strongarm robbery. And think when people get sent to prison they have plenty of time to work out and get tougher.

Addtionally, I have several saws. Does that mean I just go around cutting up pieces of wood ? I have a razor knife, keep me out of them warehouses because if someone takes my parking place I might just open evey fucking box in there.

Get my drift ?

T

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 10:38:23 AM   
Starbuck09


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Status: offline 		My views on firearms are nothing to do with brainwashing term they are simply my opinions from my own experiences with them. A gun gives anyone the power of life and death over another in a way that knives stones baseball bats do not. The latter are all tools that just release and hone your own stored up power in your muscles. A firearm is something different it is a weapon designed soley to kill and it is very effective. If someone is adept at martial arts they must go through rigorous training and discipline and by the time they have learnt to be dangerous using their body they have also learnt discipline. Those that choose to use their skills for crime are a very small percentage and are simply criminals. A gun in America at the moment requires no discipline just a modest cash sum. It requires no respect or responsibility nor for that matter ability and that is a serious problem. You yourself use and are trained in the use of firearms and so you know as well as I do that comparing them to melee weapons is ridiculous. The equivalent would be to say all citizens should be granted main battle tanks as after all you can still kill someone with a screwdriver. There is a reason that modern armies are equipped with battle rifles and not swords Term. Weapons of this power should be limited to only those who can prove that they are both responsible and well trained and that's it, at least in my opinion. I personally feel that most civilians drawing a gun to defend themselves fom an attacker pose more of arisk to themselves than anyone else. I think it immediately elevates a dangerous situation to a lethal one.
I must also say how sorry I am that you have had to kill someone and I am glad that you survived such a situation.

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 1:44:56 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zenny

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

How about

d) we maker it harder for disturbed people to acquire guns?



That is such an idiotic response to my statement that it is hard to formulate a succinct response about how idiotic it is. It's just dumb and shows ignorance on so many levels; even the ones it tries to segue into. Oh well. You still have someone killing innocence, care to try again?



Awww!  Well humor me and try your best anyway, huh?

Since it is so idiotic maybe your response might include why, so we can actually discuss it.

Instead of dismissing what you don't agree with.

By the way, were you trying to say killing innocents when you said "killing innocence"?

Or did you have some deeper philosophical meaning that I, in my dumb ignorance, missed?

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 3:07:43 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09
Loki I bet what those women really wish is that this person did'nt have a gun in the first place. Pesonally I think America could do with having much stricter gun laws.


I seriously doubt that. When you have laws that restrict guns, the only people who obey them are the innocent ones who end up becoming the victims of those who would break the law anyway.

Colleges in the U.S. are "gun free" zones. Yet we've had a bunch of college school shootings. Seems those signs that read "gun free zone" don't do much when a guy has his mind made up to shoot a bunch of innocent people.


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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 3:11:23 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09
My views on firearms are nothing to do with brainwashing term they are simply my opinions from my own experiences with them. A gun gives anyone the power of life and death over another in a way that knives stones baseball bats do not.


Wanna bet? Anyone who wants you dead is going to accomplish that goal, regardless of what they have.


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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 3:19:04 PM   
Starbuck09


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Status: offline 		When you have gun laws that restrict firearms sales to those who can prove they have no criminal record, no psychological problems, and adequate training to competently operate a gun then far more innocent people will be protected. People don't respect no gun zones because anyone can have a gun and it is easy for those who have criminal intentions to do so. I would be seriously interested to see if there are any statistics that demonstarte how many crimes a year are prevented by citizens with firearms.
As for your wager Loki I would be more than happy to take you up on it. What would you rather face a man with a pick axe or a man with a rifle? A man with a claw hammer or a man in a tank? THere are egrees of lethalitry and a firearm is about as high as you can get. As I have already said ther is a reason that modern armies are equipped with battle rifles and not swords...or baseball bats or razors e.t.c.

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 3:25:31 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09
When you have gun laws that restrict firearms sales to those who can prove they have no criminal record, no psychological problems, and adequate training to competently operate a gun then far more innocent people will be protected.


Not necessarily. Even 'normal folk' can snap and go on a rampage. Look at the recent school shootings. The shooters, most anyway, had no history of anything that would have prevented them from getting a firearm. And so they'd still have been able to shoot people at will.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09
As for your wager Loki I would be more than happy to take you up on it. What would you rather face a man with a pick axe or a man with a rifle? A man with a claw hammer or a man in a tank? THere are egrees of lethalitry and a firearm is about as high as you can get. As I have already said ther is a reason that modern armies are equipped with battle rifles and not swords...or baseball bats or razors e.t.c.


The reason your side of our lil wager loses already is that the criminals already have those guns. So to restrict guns to law-abiding people would only make them sitting ducks.

In your scenario, you say who would I rather face between a guy with an axe and a guy with a rifle. Well, in today's increasingly violent world, I won't likely be facing a guy with an axe. I'll be facing the guy with a gun. The question then becomes which would I rather do, face the gun-weilding criminal empty-handed or with a firearm of my own. And the answer there is simple: I'd rather be armed.

It doesn't matter how strict you make gun laws. The criminals will find a way to get them anyway. Do you think all criminals just walk into a gun store, show their ID and buy legal guns? No. They are illegal guns, obtained illegally and usually with the identifying information removed. If you make it harder for law-abiding people to get guns, you do nothing to stop the criminals who will do anything to obtain them.


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