RE: "Leave My Family Out Of It (Except When I Want To Use Them)"

RE: "Leave My Family Out Of It (Except When I Want To Use Them)" (Full Version)

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Arpig -> RE: "Leave My Family Out Of It (Except When I Want To Use Them)" (8/9/2009 3:07:23 PM)
None of what you said has anything to do with her morals... quote: quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig Simple, she can stand up and preach it because she believes it. She believes it despite medical and societal evidence to the contrary. Utterly irrelevant to questioning her morals, her intelligence yes,but not her morals. quote: quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig The fact that her daughter chose to disregard her teachings is in noway relevant. So why the double standard. Nice bit of selective editing here, you left out a very important part, the part where the double standard was pointed out. What I said was: quote: Simple, she can stand up and preach it because she believes it. The fact that her daughter chose to disregard her teachings is in noway relevant. Assume you are opposed to the recreational use of heroin, and one of your kids becomes a junkie....does that mean you are some sort of hypocrite? That you should now support the recreational use of heroin? No,of course not. So why the double standard. Note how the underlined part defines the double standard I was pointing out. quote: This is apples and oranges. She's not just 'for abstinence,' she's for teaching it over and instead of anything else. And she has an example in her own home about why that doesn't work. You can 'suggest' abstinence and you can harp on it all you like, but if you don't teach kids the 'other ways' of preventing pregnancy when they have sex.....they won't be preventing pregnancy......they'll just be having sex. No it isn't apples and oranges. I grant that it is not the same thing,but it is germane to your original argument that it was fair to judge Palin's morals on the basis of her daughter getting knocked up. quote: Her daughter is a living example of why her approach to sex education doesn't work. She (presumably) taught and preached only abstinence in her home. So when her daughter made the choice to have sex anyway (as teens often do) she didn't know about how to prevent pregnancy and viola....pregnant. That, to me, is irrefutable proof that her way doesn't work. And that just makes her look more and more stupid. Now you're just twisting and dodging, this has nothing to do with your original assertion, to which I am replying. That assertion was as follows: quote: In her mind it's 'ok' to trot out her downs kid to win sympathy for her lies. But it's not ok during the election to question her morals based on the fact that one of her unwed teen daughters was pregnant while still in high school. Kindly explain to me how her daughter's pregnancy has anything to do with Palin's morals. Not her intelligence (or lack thereof), not the validity (or lack thereof) of her stated position on the issue,and not the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of abstinence-only sex education, her morals.

Sanity -> RE: "Leave My Family Out Of It (Except When I Want To Use Them)" (8/9/2009 3:11:50 PM)
Well, wait a minute. Sarah Palin has more executive experience than Obama, and I am sure she is considerably more intelligent than Obama, especially judging by the way Obama is handling the current health care debate. quote: 4) As for Palin, accepting her as any kind of expert on any kind of political subject is like accepting Fred Flinstone as a factual source about prehistoric life and conditions. Yabba Dabba Doo.

Lorr47 -> RE: "Leave My Family Out Of It (Except When I Want To Use Them)" (8/9/2009 3:31:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Well, wait a minute. Sarah Palin has more executive experience than Obama, and I am sure she is considerably more intelligent than Obama, especially judging by the way Obama is handling the current health care debate. I am now even more convinced we need health care passed.

Arpig -> RE: "Leave My Family Out Of It (Except When I Want To Use Them)" (8/9/2009 3:42:45 PM)
quote: Arpig, the projections from the White House and the Congressional Budget Office ten years out predict massive spending increases for the proposals that are on the table, adding between a trillion and a half to two trillion to the deficit ten years out. That's because the present proposal is for the government to assume the burden of insuring those who cannot afford to pay, while those who can afford to pay will continue to pay the insurance companies. The government assumes responsibility for the expenses without accessing any of the income. If they were to go to a single-payer system, they could charge a reasonable premium to everybody, and thus fund the insurance system. Come on people, this is not rocket science, its simple as can be, and it works. I can't find a simple total $ amount for what is spent by individuals and employers on health insurance premiums, but I am going to assume it is around 1 trillion each year (given the numbers I could find, which were 2.4 trillion in 2007 for total health care expenditures). Now if the government needs 2.5 trillion over ten years, well they can tap into that 10 trillion+ that is not being spent on insurance premiums. As I have pointed out before, which nobody seems to notice, single-payer health insurance is an insurance plan, a very,very large group health plan. And like any other health plan,you pay premiums. This can be done directly, by having an annual fee accessed as they do in Germany, Japan, and some Canadian provinces, or it can be done indirectly through special health care taxes, as they do here in Ontario. The method of paying the premiums in no way changes the fact that the premiums are paid. And just as with private insurance, the bigger the risk pool covered by any individual plan, the cheaper the plan is and the more comprehensive the coverage offered. Like I said before, imagine a comprehensive group coverage policy with 300+ million members.

SpinnerofTales -> RE: "Leave My Family Out Of It (Except When I Want To Use Them)" (8/9/2009 4:38:35 PM)
quote: Well, wait a minute. Sarah Palin has more executive experience than Obama, and I am sure she is considerably more intelligent than Obama, especially judging by the way Obama is handling the current health care debate. ORIGINAL: Sanity We have just left the realm of plausible discussion and into the realm of fantasy. As for executive experience, she must have had enough because she quite the governor's office to go do who knows what, betraying the very people who voted for her. Sounds like a perfect person to listen to.

Lorr47 -> RE: "Leave My Family Out Of It (Except When I Want To Use Them)" (8/9/2009 5:08:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: Arpig, the projections from the White House and the Congressional Budget Office ten years out predict massive spending increases for the proposals that are on the table, adding between a trillion and a half to two trillion to the deficit ten years out. That's because the present proposal is for the government to assume the burden of insuring those who cannot afford to pay, while those who can afford to pay will continue to pay the insurance companies. The government assumes responsibility for the expenses without accessing any of the income. If they were to go to a single-payer system, they could charge a reasonable premium to everybody, and thus fund the insurance system. Come on people, this is not rocket science, its simple as can be, and it works. I can't find a simple total $ amount for what is spent by individuals and employers on health insurance premiums, but I am going to assume it is around 1 trillion each year (given the numbers I could find, which were 2.4 trillion in 2007 for total health care expenditures). Now if the government needs 2.5 trillion over ten years, well they can tap into that 10 trillion+ that is not being spent on insurance premiums. As I have pointed out before, which nobody seems to notice, single-payer health insurance is an insurance plan, a very,very large group health plan. And like any other health plan,you pay premiums. This can be done directly, by having an annual fee accessed as they do in Germany, Japan, and some Canadian provinces, or it can be done indirectly through special health care taxes, as they do here in Ontario. The method of paying the premiums in no way changes the fact that the premiums are paid. And just as with private insurance, the bigger the risk pool covered by any individual plan, the cheaper the plan is and the more comprehensive the coverage offered. Like I said before, imagine a comprehensive group coverage policy with 300+ million members. And the CEOs of the insurance companies no longer get salaries of $11 million, $17 million and $30 million a year respectively. Those salaries go to ..."gasp" ...health care.

Arpig -> RE: "Leave My Family Out Of It (Except When I Want To Use Them)" (8/9/2009 5:17:54 PM)
quote: And the CEOs of the insurance companies no longer get salaries of $11 million, $17 million and $30 million a year respectively. Those salaries go to ..."gasp" ...health care. Well seeing as under a single-payer system, private health insurance is solely for supplemental coverage, the market is smaller, and I assume the overall profits are as well, so it follows that the CEOs would have their compensations adjusted accordingly, however, the profit margins are increased, since the plans are often rather expensive,and the things they cover are not the big ticket items. Supplemental health insurance under a comprehensive single-payer system is more of a luxury item than a necessity. I can't find any numbers as to profits for health insurers in Canada (Google is not being friendly to me today[:o]), but there apparently are over 140 private health insurance companies in Canada, so there must be a decent amount of money to be made. ~ Edited because my space bar isn't working right...I need to go dig up another old keyboard. [:@]

LaTigresse -> RE: "Leave My Family Out Of It (Except When I Want To Use Them)" (8/9/2009 5:21:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales quote: Well, wait a minute. Sarah Palin has more executive experience than Obama, and I am sure she is considerably more intelligent than Obama, especially judging by the way Obama is handling the current health care debate. ORIGINAL: Sanity We have just left the realm of plausible discussion and into the realm of fantasy. As for executive experience, she must have had enough because she quite the governor's office to go do who knows what, betraying the very people who voted for her. Sounds like a perfect person to listen to. Yes. And if there was a bet on the whole intelligence issue. While I am generally not a betting woman, I would feel quite comfortable placing my entire retirement account (which has almost completely recovered by the way) on that bet. I would have been comfortable with that bet after hearing her speak for the first time... I'm thinking she and Britney Spears probably score about the same on any IQ test.

rulemylife -> RE: "Leave My Family Out Of It (Except When I Want To Use Them)" (8/9/2009 5:24:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic [sm=rofl.gif] The conservative victim mentality. I love it, RML. If you are going to spout horseshit, by all means, go big. The bigger the lie, the apt people are to believe it. Pretty soon, black will be white, and wet will be dry. Firm I think that is a statement that very well sums up the conservative viewpoint, and from such an unexpected source. I would have never expected it from you Firm. If you need help getting your ACLU card let me know. So many converts, so little time.

Lorr47 -> RE: "Leave My Family Out Of It (Except When I Want To Use Them)" (8/9/2009 5:30:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: And the CEOs of the insurance companies no longer get salaries of $11 million, $17 million and $30 million a year respectively. Those salaries go to ..."gasp" ...health care. Well seeing as under a single-payer system, private health insurance is solely for supplemental coverage, the market is smaller, and I assume the overall profits are as well, so it follows that the CEOs would have their compensations adjusted accordingly, however, the profit margins are increased, since the plans are often rather expensive,and the things they cover are not the big ticket items. Supplemental health insurance under a comprehensive single-payer system is more of a luxury item than a necessity. I can't find any numbers as to profits for health insurers in Canada (Google is not being friendly to me today[:o]), but there apparently are over 140 private health insurance companies in Canada, so there must be a decent amount of money to be made. ~ Edited because my space bar isn't working right...I need to go dig up another old keyboard. [:@] I should not have assumed that insurance companies would no longer be making the usual amount of money and all proceeds would revert to actually paying for health care. But I like to dream. They have been playing this game since Truman.

rulemylife -> RE: "Leave My Family Out Of It (Except When I Want To Use Them)" (8/9/2009 5:31:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity The problem here is, the deficit. Financially, the United States is on a runaway train headed over a cliff. We can't pay for the social programs we have now, Social Security and Medicare are fast running out of money, and this vast new entitlement initiative will just be adding more fuel to the fire without finding any realistic kind of a way to pay for it all. That's why I'm saying that after everyone is on Obama's single payer system, the sacrifices that will potentially have to be made in order to keep it going are dreadful to have to consider. We can't pay for the programs we have now, and so its really the wrong time to be adding any more to the problem. What dreadful sacrifices did you have to make to fund the Iraq War? Because the cost of that over a ten-year period far exceeds the cost of the ten-year health care plan. And it seems we are winding down in Iraq.

Sanity -> RE: "Leave My Family Out Of It (Except When I Want To Use Them)" (8/9/2009 5:34:33 PM)
Whenever Obama tries to speak without his teleprompter in front of him every other word out of his mouth is "uh" and he stupidly steps on his dick every time, and so I advise those of you who claim to support the man to do everything you can to avoid rather than generate debates revolving around, uh, general, uh, intelligence. Uh, seriously.

Lorr47 -> RE: "Leave My Family Out Of It (Except When I Want To Use Them)" (8/9/2009 5:35:48 PM)
quote: We can't pay for the programs we have now, and so its really the wrong time to be adding any more to the problem. Sanity, why don't you answer Arpig's entry as to the single payer system? Also, include in the answer what you mean by "adding."

LaTigresse -> RE: "Leave My Family Out Of It (Except When I Want To Use Them)" (8/9/2009 5:41:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Whenever Obama tries to speak without his teleprompter in front of him every other word out of his mouth is "uh" and he stupidly steps on his dick every time, and so I advise those of you who claim to support the man to do everything you can to avoid rather than generate debates revolving around, uh, general, uh, intelligence. Uh, seriously. Acknowledging an inability to memorize and needing something to read and keep one's thoughts in order isn't exactly a sign of lack of intelligence. As opposed to the ahhhhh.......lack of reading......per the below quote. "All of 'em, any of 'em that have been in front of me over all these years." --Sarah Palin, unable to name a single newspaper or magazine she reads, interview with Katie Couric, CBS News, Oct. 1, 2008

Sanity -> RE: "Leave My Family Out Of It (Except When I Want To Use Them)" (8/9/2009 5:46:00 PM)
I bet she knows how many states there are though...

tazzygirl -> RE: "Leave My Family Out Of It (Except When I Want To Use Them)" (8/9/2009 5:47:12 PM)
Seems she forgot her own quite quickly.

LaTigresse -> RE: "Leave My Family Out Of It (Except When I Want To Use Them)" (8/9/2009 5:53:25 PM)
The strain was just more than she could bear... Of course it was in the best interest of her state yanno. (actually it probably was but not for the reasons she would admit)

rulemylife -> RE: "Leave My Family Out Of It (Except When I Want To Use Them)" (8/9/2009 5:57:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Whenever Obama tries to speak without his teleprompter in front of him every other word out of his mouth is "uh" and he stupidly steps on his dick every time, and so I advise those of you who claim to support the man to do everything you can to avoid rather than generate debates revolving around, uh, general, uh, intelligence. Uh, seriously. [sm=biggrin.gif] uh seriously: George W. Bush Stutters Over and Over YouTube - George Bush Stuttering Speech (Edited) Disturbing Video (Bush stammering while fawning over Alito YouTube - George Bush Stammers For 7 Seconds

Lorr47 -> RE: "Leave My Family Out Of It (Except When I Want To Use Them)" (8/9/2009 6:00:32 PM)
Hey, Sanity you have not responded to Arpig's 6:42 entry yet. This is not rocket science. Is your silence an admission that Obama should just try to force a single payer plan through?

Sanity -> RE: "Leave My Family Out Of It (Except When I Want To Use Them)" (8/9/2009 6:05:26 PM)
I'd love to, but there isn't a lot of time at present and that would be a very lengthy post to try to research and write out. I'll say this, I have immeasurable respect for Arpig and the things he writes, but single payer isn't what's being accounted for by Congress or the White House, even if that's the president's stated (but still quasi-secret) goal, and so its hard to debate numbers which aren't being published. I did ask Arpig what Canada's current financial situation is, and that has a lot to do with what I am getting at, but I haven't yet heard back from him on that. I'm curious what the real costs are for single payer, and how many of the countries which have it are going broke. And how many suffer rationing, and how severe the rationing is among those who do suffer it, and how the rationing is handed out, what criteria is used and how it works. And if things are growing better or worse under that system... So many questions, so little time as they say. quote: ORIGINAL: Lorr47 quote: We can't pay for the programs we have now, and so its really the wrong time to be adding any more to the problem. Sanity, why don't you answer Arpig's entry as to the single payer system? Also, include in the answer what you mean by "adding."

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