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ORIGINAL: Esinn

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incarnate

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ORIGINAL: eyesopened

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ORIGINAL: Monkeyontuesday

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I don't believe that God said any such thing because I believe this was a story Moses wrote long after the fact as to give proof to people that God was at least as powerful as the Sun or anything else people wanted to worship.  There are people today who believe hurricane Katrina was sent by God to punish the sinful city of New Orleans.  They would never have said prior to the hurricane that God will punish sinful cities by sending hurricanes.  It's like reading Nostradamas and saying "See!  He predicted 9/11 !"  But I can see where it would be a conflict to first believe the bible to be accurate history and the literal Word of God and then try to see God as something good.  I personally don't believe in a Cosmic Asshole, but I do believe in God.

Many of the people I have heard blaming September 11 and Katrina on "the fags, dykes, abortionists, et al" listened to Pat Robertson WAY too much.

That being said, oral tradition is surprisingly accurate and thus the main, key points would be kept. I pointed out previously that nothing was written down until the Babylonian Exile, but since then it's been fairly consistent to my knowledge.

So, my question for you is: how are we going to take bits and pieces of the Bible? In theory shouldn't it be either all or nothing?

Of course oral traditions keep main points, but what if we are missing those points?  See, maybe I read the bible differently than anyone else but what I see in the Exodus story is this.  People are inherently fickle, want instant gratification and constant reaffirmation.  The key point for me is that even with elaborate "signs and wonders" people in general will not believe in what they cannot see, touch, taste, smell, or hear.  It is easier to accept the physical than to examine the spiritual.  It would seem from the majority of the posts, that the majority of the people read the Exodus story as an example of God as an insane and/or evil asshole.

The entire bible speaks to me personally that God is god within, and that it is the continued seeking, questioning, and willingness to examine myself down to my core, my own soul, that is where God will be revealed.  So for me, the bible is by far one of the best resources in forming questions about the spiritual.  Why would this or that passage be written, what is its context, how would it relate to me on a personal level? 

I have already been called an idiot.  That's okay.  I can't explain my soul to others and if I were to tell my 'proof' of what I believe no doubt I would be bashed right out of these discussions.  I don't expect anyone else to see what I see or to know what I know. 

Because the bible is a collection of a variety of writings by a variety of people that has been copied, added to, deleted from, how could the whole be considered one work?  That the bible continues to be a best-seller tells me that there is something of interest within its pages but not everyone believes the same.  So no, I don't see the bible as all or nothing.  I also don't see the bible telling anyone of any one true way.  Just because I put together a collection of what a committee deems the best books on BDSM would that create just one way of doing what it is that we do?  Seriously?

"It's like reading Nostradamas and saying "See!  He predicted 9/11"

Every author who contributed to the NT had access to the OT.  I have never run across any modern day scholarship that disagreed.

The gospels were written by 4 anonymous authors, who were not witnesses, it is also believed by many they were not from the local area.  The gospels were written 70 - 90 CE(some say 90-120).  They had the OT and it is believed they shared the book of "Q" amongst them.

The Jesus Seminar attributed many or Jesus' sayings to to OT - not to his lips.

Hmmm, sound familiar?  After reading the OT the NT fit.

"Why would this or that passage be written, what is its context, how would it relate to me on a personal level?"
That is really cute.

Most likely you can not tell anyone your "proofs" because you realize how illogical and irrational they really are. I do not think you are alone in such a feeling.  Most people are ashamed of their faith when it comes down to it.

" I don't expect anyone else to see what I see or to know what I know."
No of course not you are privy to classified information from invisible beings whom none of us are in touch with - I get it.  That makes a lot of sense.  When my daughter was 5 she talked to aliens too.

The whole bible is not considered a whole book - I pointed that out already.  Something which you seemed unaware of when you suggested Moses had anything to do with writing it.

You just need a crutch to get through life.  You are intelligent enough to recognize if taken at its literal word the bible is a vile book.  You have no understanding of its history and it seems a 2,000 year old tradition - which is a little frustrating for people who try to have intelligent conversations with you.

You can make any book you want have special personal meaning to you.  The most violent, brutal & ignorant theists do it all the time. It does not mean the interpretation in your head is true though.  Instead it means your beliefs are meaningless.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Asserting that something is true without evidence to back up that claim is not the same thing as being skeptical of baseless claims. Lacking a belief in some sort of undefined or poorly defined Christian God isn't a belief, despite the propaganda some people put forth to the contrary, it's the lack of a belief.

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ORIGINAL: Esinn

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ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

People tend to assume that the bible is the be and end of all christianity. 
the.dark. 

They would be correct in that assumption.

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ORIGINAL: eyesopened

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ORIGINAL: Esinn

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incarnate

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ORIGINAL: eyesopened

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ORIGINAL: Monkeyontuesday

quote:



I don't believe that God said any such thing because I believe this was a story Moses wrote long after the fact as to give proof to people that God was at least as powerful as the Sun or anything else people wanted to worship.  There are people today who believe hurricane Katrina was sent by God to punish the sinful city of New Orleans.  They would never have said prior to the hurricane that God will punish sinful cities by sending hurricanes.  It's like reading Nostradamas and saying "See!  He predicted 9/11 !"  But I can see where it would be a conflict to first believe the bible to be accurate history and the literal Word of God and then try to see God as something good.  I personally don't believe in a Cosmic Asshole, but I do believe in God.

Many of the people I have heard blaming September 11 and Katrina on "the fags, dykes, abortionists, et al" listened to Pat Robertson WAY too much.

That being said, oral tradition is surprisingly accurate and thus the main, key points would be kept. I pointed out previously that nothing was written down until the Babylonian Exile, but since then it's been fairly consistent to my knowledge.

So, my question for you is: how are we going to take bits and pieces of the Bible? In theory shouldn't it be either all or nothing?

Of course oral traditions keep main points, but what if we are missing those points?  See, maybe I read the bible differently than anyone else but what I see in the Exodus story is this.  People are inherently fickle, want instant gratification and constant reaffirmation.  The key point for me is that even with elaborate "signs and wonders" people in general will not believe in what they cannot see, touch, taste, smell, or hear.  It is easier to accept the physical than to examine the spiritual.  It would seem from the majority of the posts, that the majority of the people read the Exodus story as an example of God as an insane and/or evil asshole.

The entire bible speaks to me personally that God is god within, and that it is the continued seeking, questioning, and willingness to examine myself down to my core, my own soul, that is where God will be revealed.  So for me, the bible is by far one of the best resources in forming questions about the spiritual.  Why would this or that passage be written, what is its context, how would it relate to me on a personal level? 

I have already been called an idiot.  That's okay.  I can't explain my soul to others and if I were to tell my 'proof' of what I believe no doubt I would be bashed right out of these discussions.  I don't expect anyone else to see what I see or to know what I know. 

Because the bible is a collection of a variety of writings by a variety of people that has been copied, added to, deleted from, how could the whole be considered one work?  That the bible continues to be a best-seller tells me that there is something of interest within its pages but not everyone believes the same.  So no, I don't see the bible as all or nothing.  I also don't see the bible telling anyone of any one true way.  Just because I put together a collection of what a committee deems the best books on BDSM would that create just one way of doing what it is that we do?  Seriously?

"It's like reading Nostradamas and saying "See!  He predicted 9/11"

Every author who contributed to the NT had access to the OT.  I have never run across any modern day scholarship that disagreed.

The gospels were written by 4 anonymous authors, who were not witnesses, it is also believed by many they were not from the local area.  The gospels were written 70 - 90 CE(some say 90-120).  They had the OT and it is believed they shared the book of "Q" amongst them.

The Jesus Seminar attributed many or Jesus' sayings to to OT - not to his lips.

Hmmm, sound familiar?  After reading the OT the NT fit.

"Why would this or that passage be written, what is its context, how would it relate to me on a personal level?"
That is really cute.

Most likely you can not tell anyone your "proofs" because you realize how illogical and irrational they really are. I do not think you are alone in such a feeling.  Most people are ashamed of their faith when it comes down to it.

" I don't expect anyone else to see what I see or to know what I know."
No of course not you are privy to classified information from invisible beings whom none of us are in touch with - I get it.  That makes a lot of sense.  When my daughter was 5 she talked to aliens too.

The whole bible is not considered a whole book - I pointed that out already.  Something which you seemed unaware of when you suggested Moses had anything to do with writing it.

You just need a crutch to get through life.  You are intelligent enough to recognize if taken at its literal word the bible is a vile book.  You have no understanding of its history and it seems a 2,000 year old tradition - which is a little frustrating for people who try to have intelligent conversations with you.

You can make any book you want have special personal meaning to you.  The most violent, brutal & ignorant theists do it all the time. It does not mean the interpretation in your head is true though.  Instead it means your beliefs are meaningless.

Please explain why you feel it necessary to continue to attack me?  Please explain how you are any different than any other religous zealot whose mind is so firmly shut that nothing can penetrate?  How do your attacks improve the quality of your life?  How do your attacks reduce the quality of mine?  Would the world be a better place if I were to get down on my knees and worship you, or declare to all the world that I am a worthless worm because you have declared it to be so?  Come on!  Who is using a crutch?  Who again is violent, brutal, and vile? 

I will refrain from joining intelligent conversations now since it appears you have declared that I have not the tools for it.

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"Why would this or that passage be written, what is its context, how would it relate to me on a personal level?"
That is really cute.

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ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

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ORIGINAL: Esinn

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ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

People tend to assume that the bible is the be and end of all christianity. 
the.dark. 

They would be correct in that assumption.

Explain why.
 
the.dark.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn

I really hate replying to you because it puts all of my text in bold.

Or post your answer and copy paste my text when you have finished.  It's the same you do with other people who have font or coloured text.

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What else does Christianity have?  There are lost books and gospel - are you calling upon them?  If so you were right - that is cool.  But, I believe you are going another direction.

 
Then it's all cool.  I'm right you were wrong. (that was me just teasing btw)

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I get it.... Christians can be good, helpful, sincere or devout.  However, suggesting this way of life is something which is unique or special to this religion is like running into outfield to allow the batter to bunt.

 
I don't see where anyone on this thread or any of the relgious threads made such a claim.  The only people making that claim on this thread are people who are either second guessing christians on here or are spouting doctrine that they have had externally from CM. 

At the end of the day, I find it really sad that all these threads are centred on christianity - and as much as I love the book myself, it does get a little tiresome that people do not discuss other religions.
I would start my own, if I actually thought that there would be more than one or two whom would either hold a reasonable debate or be able to hold a debate about anything else other than christianity.
But good or evil - insane or perfectly well rounded - that's not what the majority are interested in.  Just that they are right.
 
the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Esinn)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

The way I see it, we have a few posters who have spent countless hours finding links to bash christianity. It seems like the in thing to do these days, so I guess it was time well spent for them. Now you want them to go out and research other religions so they can tell those people how fucked up they are for believing in something, anything?  Do you have any idea how long it took them to find all the links they have posted so far? You don't ask for much, do you?

Meh.  Some people like a challenge.  Didn't say I was easy.

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ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

 I don't have an issue or even personally care if people argue over non belief being a belief or whether it isn't.  To me such arguements are a waste of time when there are bigger things happening around the world.

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ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
What is a fact as much as people want to deny it is that athiests have a fundemental element just as much as any other collection of people.

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ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
Fundementalism - although usually used for structures religious in nature - isn't always the case and its just a strict set of principles that someone follows personally - whether thats political, religious or non faith based.  If you embark on such in a one true way, and it's a core of your life.  It's fundemental.

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ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
And the same could be said for non belief being a belief in not believing. 

Not only is that a seriously convoluted statement, it's actually self contradictory.

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ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
Or that ALL christians are one true way.

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ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
Or that maybe athiests have become more motivated or pushing back - and in the context of your post - you made it sound like it's only a recent event.  That last one is yours.  It's not true.  Athiests have been motivated and pushing since the first one existed.  Just like christians.  Your statement was an example of something that is demonstratably false.

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ORIGINAL: rightwinghippie
Personally I am of the belief that the common oral stories shared among the various early Cristian communities, had to be included by Nicea when they Romanized Christianity.

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ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

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ORIGINAL: Esinn

I really hate replying to you because it puts all of my text in bold.

It's pretty simple.  Just highlight your words and change the font to a size you want.  Like I have
Or post your answer and copy paste my text when you have finished.  It's the same you do with other people who have font or coloured text.

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What else does Christianity have?  There are lost books and gospel - are you calling upon them?  If so you were right - that is cool.  But, I believe you are going another direction.

 
Then it's all cool.  I'm right you were wrong. (that was me just teasing btw)

quote:

I get it.... Christians can be good, helpful, sincere or devout.  However, suggesting this way of life is something which is unique or special to this religion is like running into outfield to allow the batter to bunt.

 
I don't see where anyone on this thread or any of the relgious threads made such a claim.  The only people making that claim on this thread are people who are either second guessing christians on here or are spouting doctrine that they have had externally from CM. 

At the end of the day, I find it really sad that all these threads are centred on christianity - and as much as I love the book myself, it does get a little tiresome that people do not discuss other religions.
I would start my own, if I actually thought that there would be more than one or two whom would either hold a reasonable debate or be able to hold a debate about anything else other than christianity.
But good or evil - insane or perfectly well rounded - that's not what the majority are interested in.  Just that they are right.
 
the.dark.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Yet you're the one putting the argument forth in multiple posts.

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ORIGINAL: Esinn
I hate replying to you.  Did I mention that? 

Uhuh.    See my attempt to assist above.

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Christianity is the focus, for me at least, because this nation houses more christians than any other country in the planet.  This is the country I live in, was born in and intend to stay in.  If I lived in another nation where I would not be tortured or jailed for speaking about their specific delusion I would.  I have already addressed neo paginism numerous times on this forum.  So, I explained why christianity is of the most importance.  It is christians not muslims, jews, hindus or pagans who want their commandments placed in public property.  It is not other religions who want their creation myths placed in our schools.  This is not a Muslim majority nation.  This is not a nation ran by Jews(or is it JK - shhhh).  Christianity, christianity.

I get that - in a sense.
I also get that christianity is the cool religion to fall out with.  Used to be Judaism or zionists - but do that now and be accused of being anti semetic.
Athiests (and others) can't win.

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I stand against any ideas which make explicit absolute claims for which there is absolutely no evidence.  The most dangerous one I am aware of to date is religion.

 
Again, I understand that.  However, you do so at the risk of becoming that exactly what you abhore and then no one takes you seriously.  I am sure that few people may take you seriously really doesn;t matter one iota to you - but neither does it to any other person with a objective.
In other words.  You aren't any different.

quote:

You kind of side stepped your question.  I answered why the bible is the center piece of christianity.  I answered why it is the absolute core and why it would not exist without it.  How do you think it could?

 
I do not understand this.  Sidestepped which question?  Please elabourate and I will endeavour to respond.

the.dark.


_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Esinn)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

The way I see it, we have a few posters who have spent countless hours finding links to bash christianity. It seems like the in thing to do these days, so I guess it was time well spent for them. Now you want them to go out and research other religions so they can tell those people how fucked up they are for believing in something, anything?  Do you have any idea how long it took them to find all the links they have posted so far? You don't ask for much, do you?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

The way I see it, we have a few posters who have spent countless hours finding links to bash christianity. It seems like the in thing to do these days, so I guess it was time well spent for them. Now you want them to go out and research other religions so they can tell those people how fucked up they are for believing in something, anything?  Do you have any idea how long it took them to find all the links they have posted so far? You don't ask for much, do you?

It has nothing to do with christianity.  It does not take hours to find the links, it takes minutes.  If so inclined to find truth it takes years to understand the concepts involved: biology, religious history, cosmology, physics, chemistry, evolution... 

As mentioned my problem is not with Christianity.  I have discussed in darks thread I believe why Christianity is the focus for me and I speculate most non-theists on this forum.  If needed I can cut and past.

I am against people who make absolute claims about an invisible personal uncreated thing(god) for which absolutely no evidence exists.

Even more importantly if with in my scope I will address or challenge any absolute claims of pseudoscience or any other field for which absolutely no evidence exist.

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ORIGINAL: rightwinghippie

You gave AN answer as to why the Bible is the centerpiece of Christianity. Yet it was not a very good one, and specifically ignored several challenges, that show why it is not as you say. Specifically, that there is no "Bible", there are several versions, that include or discard a number of books. Christianity predates the Bible as decided by Nicea, and later Modified by others denominations. and the fact that All religous texts are intended to be read along with learning and commentary. They are not intended to be read in isolation. Much of what is central to Western Christianity (which seems to be your fetish) has nothing to do with the words of the Bible.

I think you would get demolished in argument if you were to go against someone who actually does believe what you want to argue against. No one here is a "doctrine" literalist Christian, of the Nicean tradition.

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ORIGINAL: GotSteel

The Councils of Nicaea had nothing to do with what material was included in the bible. The first council had to do with dealing with the Arian controversy and the second was to restore the practice of honoring icons.