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The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 1:12:58 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		This is the post some encouraged me to go on and post despite my apprehension of how this would go. I have searched and searched the archives, read many a thread on the subjects involved, and find myself less sure than ever. Part of this thread will hinge on some definitions. I would absolutely LOVE to give you my personal definitions for these items, but, as many know, I am not one for labels. I generally despise them and find no comfort at all in wearing them. Because of this, I haven't bothered to really compile my own kinky dictionary of terms. I have some general clue what is being discussed and go from there.

This isn't all about definitions, however, but delves into theory and practice as well. Again, this is controversial territory that can be equally explosive in discussions. I have kind of been going along doing what I do and what seems natural and right for me. Now, with this new concept I am having thrown at me, I now have to contend with the implications of what it means to be and do what I am. Okay, the above was fair warning.

On occasion my partner and I can be such a cutesy couple. He says something, I say no way. Uh huh! Nuh uh! I am constantly not very able to accept who or what I really am and this little game seems to be a good warm up for us. He gets to introduce it and see just how much I'm going to protest and a sneak preview of why. At some point, however, it is time for real confrontation and time for me to face myself. I know how it all sounds and thank goodness he is the incredibly patient person he is because I know many would not put up with me.

One of those moments has happened recently and, as much as I am trying to wrap my brain around it, I just seem to get myself hopelessly lost every time. He confronted me very seriously with the label of slave. He feels no need to label me, but rather he wants to help me get some kind of guideposts for me to understand some responses that I have had lately that I didn't know what to make of them. Well, that's just great! I don't even have a definition for what that term means in any formal sense for myself! What the heck do I do with this??? My first fall back position in response to him was that I was NOT a slave, but a submissive. He went on to tell me all the reasons why that just was not so. He asked me what was so troubling to me about being called a slave. I had no answer. Again, how could I?

This lead into me asking if I couldn't just be his submissive (like I have a definition for that one either! LOL). He said that no, I couldn't, because I WAS a slave... not just a slave but HIS slave. Before anyone brings it up, this is in the dynamic sense rather than the formal sense because we have not gone to the collaring stage yet. I asked him what would be so different between me being his submissive versus his slave. The answers were vastly different. The motivations seemed miles apart. The implications about me personally seemed frightening no matter which I was, but terrifying if I truly came to accept I was a slave.

So. what is the dividing line between submissive and slave? How does it change the dynamic based on this characteristic of the s party? How does your definition change your expectations, motivations, and practices? What does it mean in terms of the person (things like inequality, inferior, etc.)? I guess what I am asking for is an exaughstive delineation of submissive dynamic compared and contrasted to slave dynamic at each individual level, the relationship level, “lifestyle” level, and overall theoretical level.

There is a lot of confusion on this for me, so please pardon what will likely be a great deal of silence from me. I am taking in everything and trying to form my own conceptions. Of course, this is not my only resource and the most important one is the man I talk to every single night, but I have come to know and respect a lot of the personalities here and would value any and all input. Thanks in advance!

lovingpet


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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 1:15:19 PM   
leadership527


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Status: offline 		What a dumb-assed question. Use the search function why don't you?

*chuckles* sorry, I couldn't resist.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 1:16:27 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		Does he own your holes?

Serious question.

Does he own your mind and soul?

Seriouser question.


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Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 1:20:03 PM   
LillyoftheVally


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Status: offline 		Like you, I don't see the difference as much apart from to the individual, what you have bought to the table LP is that your partner see's you as that, and that to me is the most important thing. I have been called sub and slave and whatever, I self define as submissive and in that I also tend to submit my labels also.

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 1:23:55 PM   
Prinsexx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet


So. what is the dividing line between submissive and slave?


There are no dividing lines.
Just like there are really no red lines on a map.....just hillsides, oh and moumtains and valleys and rivers and trees and desserts and urban sprawl and green belts and lakes and oceans and seashores and shingle and grassland and deep frozen waste lands and and and....but no red lines.


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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 1:28:53 PM   
RedMagic1


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Status: offline 		Can you live just fine on your own, but do you thrive -- are you at your best -- when completely controlled by him?

If the word weren't "slave" -- which has a history full of human misery -- but something else, like "ubersub," would you be happy being called that, and would you think it fit?


_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 1:30:08 PM   
leadership527


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quote:

So. what is the dividing line between submissive and slave? How does it change the dynamic based on this characteristic of the s party? How does your definition change your expectations, motivations, and practices? What does it mean in terms of the person (things like inequality, inferior, etc.)? I guess what I am asking for is an exaughstive delineation of submissive dynamic compared and contrasted to slave dynamic at each individual level, the relationship level, “lifestyle” level, and overall theoretical level.

As you are well aware, there is no way to truly answer this question. I've gone back and forth on it myself. My own pesonal answer was to go back to the english language. About the only common demominator in all the historical usages of the word "slave" is that there is the implication of ownership... one human owned by another. Now, the word "owned" has come to mean pretty much any collaring in the BDSM world, but what I mean by it is specifically that both parties literally see the slave as owned property.

Beyond that, there are implications of something vaguely TPE-ish. But that's not really a part of my definition since a gazillion slaves out there don't practice anything even remotely like TPE. In truth, all of this is just dictionary games. Carol is ultimately my slave because it tickles my fancy to call her that. What she really is is Carol.

That's what it means to me anyway. Insofar as what impacts that has on the dynamic, the answer is none other than psychological. FOR ME, I equate ownership with TPE... but there's no rational justification for that stance in any sort of histroical context. In fact, historically, the role of "slave" in a society almost always came with various legal boundaries on what you may and may not do with your slave... in some cases, those boundaries looked pretty much like "free" they were so broad.

You want my best guess. Your master, like me, likes the term "slave" and he likes you. So whatever it is that you are is a slave in his eyes. I suspect that's kind of how it always goes *laughs*. What sets off your alarm bells with the word?

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 1:35:18 PM   
Prinsexx


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Joined: 8/27/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Can you live just fine on your own, but do you thrive -- are you at your best -- when completely controlled by him?

If the word weren't "slave" -- which has a history full of human misery -- but something else, like "ubersub," would you be happy being called that, and would you think it fit?


Being a slave (in my exeprience) has little to do with being controlled.
Dominants who attempt to control me get short shrift.
Being a slave is ultimately about my STATUS in relationship to my Master. As slave I do not need to be controlled. I know by instinct in relationship.



_____________________________

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Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
Free woman
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To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 1:37:23 PM   
Prinsexx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
So whatever it is that you are is a slave in his eyes.

Prinny stands on a chair and applauds you...can you hear that? did you get that?
Well said and well understood (in my humle opinion on the matter).


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Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
Free woman
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To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 1:38:29 PM   
lronitulstahp


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quote:

What's in a name? that which we call a rose
     By any other name would smell as sweet;

*hugs lovingpet*
i have found that living life and making the definitions together is all that counts and much more rewarding than any title, box, or "name". i'd much rather be "it" than call "it" anything.

He sees you as his slave. If i were you, i  would want to know what things over time have led him to that opinion, and what the distintion means to him. Perhaps the gradual change for him has been much more noticeable than for you. Often, when you're sinking and freefalling, you can't take time to notice that there are actually steps involved. He might have seen steps where you felt like you were floating above the ground. Congrats...from what i've seen of him briefly, he was quiet and thoughtful, and not in it for show. Best wishes to you both for every happiness.

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 1:41:18 PM   
catize


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What I see from your OP is a strong gut-level fear factor regarding your dominant’s use of the term slave to define *you*. 
I don’t have any answers for you, but you might come up with some of your own if you can analyze some things.
What makes it scary for you?
What do you believe will change in your relationship if your label is slave rather than submissive?
Do you have the same strong reaction to dominant vs, master as it applies to your partner?
Why or why not?

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 1:52:19 PM   
LaTigresse


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Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		There is a girl I know that considers herself my slave. I don't............yet.

She feels totally controlled by me, my words, the thoughts I express. She feels owned. She identifies as a slave.

For reasons that are my own, I have yet to lay claim to her as mine. When and if I do, and call her my slave, it will be on my terms. What that means to anyone else doesn't really matter to me.

You see, the thing is, I think it is too personally defined. If this girl and I cannot see the definition of her place in my life in exactly the same way, how can someone else far outside our dynamic even begin to define it in a way that matters to either of us.

I may be wrong but for the OP I am guessing it is the perception of what others think, in regards to how she wants to see herself, her control (or lack thereof) within the relationship that might be the scary part.

Some s types yearn for the absolutely release of all personal power over to a M type. Others want to submit but the idea of submitting all, is a scary thing. Some don't like the perceived stigma they see attached to being a slave versus a submissive. They somehow want to maintain, even if just as a public front, the perception of submitting on their terms. Regaining control of their submission. Kind of that old negative "doormat" concept.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 1:54:29 PM   
DavanKael


Posts: 3072
Joined: 10/6/2007
Status: offline 		I belive that power-exchange happens on a continuum. 
Also, some people just get off on certain terms.  My boy (Not currently active but Mine none-the-less) likes the term slave, so when we have used terminology in the past, because I know it does it for him and his desire to be pleasing is more cleanly cued, despite my knowing that submissive is a more accurate term.  Then, again, for as wound up as I get in certain definitions and sticking to them, I'm not so wound up on rigidity of roles as long as the people in the relationship are getting their needs met. 
Best wishes,
  Davan

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 1:59:41 PM   
RedMagic1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Can you live just fine on your own, but do you thrive -- are you at your best -- when completely controlled by him?

If the word weren't "slave" -- which has a history full of human misery -- but something else, like "ubersub," would you be happy being called that, and would you think it fit?


Being a slave (in my exeprience) has little to do with being controlled.
Dominants who attempt to control me get short shrift.
Being a slave is ultimately about my STATUS in relationship to my Master. As slave I do not need to be controlled. I know by instinct in relationship.



You serve no Master save your own emotional instabilities.  The OP, by contrast, is cocooned in a loving relationship and is conflicted about what she perceives as a change in it.  That is why I believe pointed questions will help her more than any conclusion I might provide her.  I think she needs extra tools to examine what is going on inside of herself.  Like Tulip, I am sure both she and her man (Master, Dom, cuddlebuddy, whatever) will be fine, no matter what they end up calling each other.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 2:18:29 PM   
Prinsexx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Can you live just fine on your own, but do you thrive -- are you at your best -- when completely controlled by him?

If the word weren't "slave" -- which has a history full of human misery -- but something else, like "ubersub," would you be happy being called that, and would you think it fit?


Being a slave (in my exeprience) has little to do with being controlled.
Dominants who attempt to control me get short shrift.
Being a slave is ultimately about my STATUS in relationship to my Master. As slave I do not need to be controlled. I know by instinct in relationship.



You serve no Master save your own emotional instabilities. 

Red: drop it. You obviously get a sense of power and well being from insulting me, a woman you have never met, never even mailed privately.
You are right; at the moment I do not serve a Master. And when I did and if I did now I certainly would not look to you to seek approval of my status.
How many slaves do you own at the moment whereby you could define slave for them, for me or for anyone else?
As for emotional instabilty; I do not feel the need to defend that either here or indeed in relationship to those who know me.
But if you have a need to keep on insinuating that I am unstable then I am sure there are systems in place here that will take care of that.
Now if you are mature enough for a debate, on the subject in hand, then shall we return to it?
Plain speaking enough for you?



< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 8/15/2009 2:21:02 PM >

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 2:20:04 PM   
MsMillgrove


Posts: 260
Joined: 5/27/2008
Status: offline 		Personal experience on this issue: Went to a meeting of a group of gay leather men. They recognize these two dynamics: Master/ Slave Master/Boy. Difference is level of commitment, obedience, level of surrender and limits. (use of word submit.. isn't done.. term surrender used instead) Program consisted of a discussion with various masters and their slaves or boys. I found their descriptions of their lives together, their dynamic... resonated with me. I came home and announced: "Wow, I am a gay man!"
Well of course I was kidding, but it was the only d/s dicussion I've ever heard where I could feel--yes, that's how it is with me and my girl (male cross dresser).

If I want to screw up our dynamic, i can insist that she calls herself a slave, because she is one, she has what the masters' spoke of-- "a slave heart". She has never refused me in Anything I might wish. Never used a safeword, never disagreed with me. Nothing. It is her pride and happiness to feel I truly own her as property. And I do.

Yet, I know that demanding her to say, "Yes I am your slave", will cause her to be upset. I know she will do it with only a moment of hesistation, but why do I want to spoil a near-perfect relationship by insisting on the use of a word? I think of her as my slave, I call her "my toy"or "my tresor" and rarely use the word "sub". when referring to her. She always calls herself a sub. This emphasis on words and definitions.. it runs thru society and is so strong in bdsm communities. Useful and necesary, it can also be incredibly pointless, even destructive sometimes. I've believe that each person has the natural right to identify themselves as they wish, to use whatever form of address suits them.

I edited a yearbook of old ladies in a club.. and as newer, younger women joined. they did not want to be identified by their husband's name only, as in Mrs. David Brown. Especially those with PH'd or Medical degrees. They wanted to be Dr. Susan Adajio. not Mrs. Brown. I talked the other members of the board into allowing everyone to define themselves as they wished. If someone wants to list as Sr. Maria Alvarez y Delgado, finero. They agreed--it should be up to every person how they want to be defined as a person. For some ladies..they'd always been a helpmate to the husband and they valued that name hugely and didn't want to be listed by their given name and surname. I think the same holds true in d/s. If you want to be called a sub, when the master feels you are a slave, why is it so important to him to have this designation applied to you?

Well it is important, obviously to Him, so perhaps you need to do what my toy would, take your moment of hesistation (which we are watching here) and then say, "Yes, Master" and make him happy. It's not my way, but he's your Master and you must obey.

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 2:24:35 PM   
Malkinius


Posts: 1814
Joined: 1/9/2004
Status: offline 		Greetings lovingpet...

Yes, there are definitions for someone who is a slave and someone who is a submissive. There are lots and lots of them and many of them sort of agree with each other. I use the following definition for the standard consensual BDSM Top/bottom, Dom/sub, Master/slave relationships and yes, people do blur them all the time and call what they are doing one thing when it is really another.

BDSM Relationshps:

Top/bottom is about what the Top does to their bottom. (Usually this is about what gets the bottom off sexually.)

Dom/sub is about what the Dom does with their sub. (Usually this is about what gets one or the other of them off sexually.)

Master/slave is about what the slave is for their Master. (Note the reversal of order and this one is not about sex for either party.)

Think about this for a while and think about people you know and what they do and why they do it....and why they say they do it. As I said, the lines do blur and yes, to some extent it is a continuum and people do slide from one to another in both directions. If you think this is harsh ask first whether or not it is true.

This is enough to get you thinking about what you are and what you want to be.

Be well....

Malkinius


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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 2:36:14 PM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline 		Dear Lovingpet
One of the most inspirational writers for me is Jack Rinella.
So see: Sometimes Master, sometimes slave 
http://www.leatherviews.com/cols/column.asp?id=19  

~His natural reaction demonstrated how we over-simplify the ways we relate. We want to closely define types and make everything "black or white." If we can label it then we can understand it. But the world doesn't work that way. Just when we think we have the answers, there are new questions. There are neither tops, nor bottoms, just men and women who choose to enter into relationships that to some degree or another fulfill one's need for dominance and submission, being served and serving.~ 

From: http://www.leatherviews.com/home.htm  

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Owner of asterion

Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
Free woman
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To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 2:36:59 PM   
Apocalypso


Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/20/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius
I use the following definition for the standard consensual BDSM Top/bottom, Dom/sub, Master/slave relationships and yes, people do blur them all the time and call what they are doing one thing when it is really another.
Obviously, everybody has their personal definitions.  However, if you're going to argue that other people are "doing one thing when it is really another", I think you need to back up that kind of claim with some kind of linguistic authority.  Unless it's entirely subjective, obviously.


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There's no "s", it's the Book of Revelation,
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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 2:43:32 PM   
beargonewild


Posts: 22716
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		I really don't think there's a clear delineation between the submissive and the slave, other then the importance that person places on their role in the relationship. For myself who identifies as submissive, this label has a deeper resonance then when I try to call myself a slave. Yet when I look at how my actions are outwardly expressed I really can't see any difference to when I was in a Master/slave relationship. The thought processes and such were really no different and any minor differences were not important in the grand scheme of things.
  I take the view that in a relationship that is based upon the D/s structure, if my dominant partner sees and thinks of me as his slave then no big deal. My main concern is to my dominant partner and to the relationship. Mt role in that relationship does span the gauntlet from slave/sub/lover/playtoy/home owner/cook/housekeeper etc. Yet in the end the most important role I have is that of being his.

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