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Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 1:24:54 PM

DomImus

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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/14/nyregion/14shoot.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp

Harlem Store Owner Shoots 4 Robbers, Killing 2

"They strode into the restaurant supply store in Harlem shortly after 3 p.m. on Thursday, four young men intent on robbery, one with a Glock 9-millimeter pistol, the police said.

But Charles Augusto Jr., the 72-year-old proprietor of the Kaplan Brothers Blue Flame Corporation, at 523 West 125th Street, near Amsterdam Avenue, had been robbed several times before, despite the fact that his shop is around the corner from the 26th Precinct station house on West 126th Street.

Mr. Augusto, whom neighborhood friends call Gus, rose from a chair 20 to 30 feet away and took out a loaded Winchester 12-gauge pump-action shotgun with a pistol-grip handle. The police said he bought it after a robbery 30 years ago.

The first shot took down the gunman at the front. He died almost immediately, according to the police, who said he was 29 and had been arrested for gun possession in Queens last year and was the nephew of a police officer.

Mr. Augusto’s other two blasts hit all three accomplices, who stumbled out the door, bleeding. One of them, a 21-year-old, staggered across 125th Street and collapsed in front of the General Grant Houses, a nine-building complex with 4,500 residents, one of the city’s biggest housing projects. Someone called 911, and an ambulance rushed him to St Luke's Roosevelt Hospital Center where he was dead on arrival. The police said he had a record of arrests for weapons possession and robbery."
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Yeah, we need to take the guns away from those senior citizens and make sure that only the lawless young thugs have access to them.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 1:26:37 PM

Starbuck09

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No DomImus what you need to do is take away firearms from both so that this old man did not have to kill to protect what is his.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 1:44:54 PM

rightwinghippie

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Starbuck it is already completely illegal for criminals to carry pistols in NYC. How would adding new laws help?

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 1:47:30 PM

Starbuck09

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Adding new laws that severly restrict the sale and ownership of firearms crashes the rate of gun crime hippie. In Britain someone being killed with a gun makes front page news when it happens as it is so rare.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 1:49:17 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

Adding new laws that severly restrict the sale and ownership of firearms crashes the rate of gun crime hippie. In Britain someone being killed with a gun makes front page news when it happens as it is so rare.

How often did it happen before you took away all the guns?

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 1:52:23 PM

Starbuck09

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Reasonably so Panda. We had a very big problem with organised crime, particuarly in london and we had a few massacres where a lone guman went on a spree. I don't know the exact statistics Panda i'm afraid and i'm not sure where you'd get them from sadly.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 1:58:30 PM

rightwinghippie

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How can the ban be more restrictive than total?

3 Cheers for the Old Man!!

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 2:00:59 PM

Starbuck09

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It's the fact that there are hugenumbers of firearms floating around in america tat makes it so easy for criminals to arm thmselves. In Britian it is difficult for anyone to get their hands on agun civilian and crimianl alike.
As for the old man three cheers indeed I think he was very brave.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 2:12:39 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

Reasonably so Panda. We had a very big problem with organised crime, particuarly in london and we had a few massacres where a lone guman went on a spree. I don't know the exact statistics Panda i'm afraid and i'm not sure where you'd get them from sadly.

Fair enough. I didn't think you'd have actual statistics at your fingertips; i was just hoping for a rough idea of how much of a problem it was to begin with.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 2:16:10 PM

Starbuck09

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No worries mate. The two driving forces behind the desire for gun bans was the massacres like Dunblane and armed robbery which was a major problem for a while. One other issue is that we don'like our police to be armed, which is, in my opinion, pretty tough on the policemen but it's a cultural thing.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 2:20:21 PM

rightwinghippie

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I don't see how making guns available to only people who have access to criminal markets, would help. Cocaine is illegal also, yet plenty of it seems to come acrross our thousands of miles of borders.

But I guess this is a tired predictable argument, that changes no ones minds. So I will just say I am glad there was a dead and 3 wounded criminal thugs and a safe old man. Instead of a dead or beaten old man and 4 proud, richer thugs.

< Message edited by rightwinghippie -- 8/16/2009 2:21:16 PM >

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 2:27:44 PM

Starbuck09

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But look hippie the rate of gun crime in America compared to Britain is astronomical. Banning them does work. There are not thousands of shops across britian where one can purchase [relatively cheaply] a plethora of different firearms. The point is that there are so many of these weapons in circulation that it is incredibly easy for criminals to get access to anything they want. This isn't something that can change overnight obviously. I would start by having a mandatory life in prison sentence for possession of a semi automatic firearm. Concentrate on removing this class of weapon. Citizens can still be armed this way and will not be at a disadvantage to criminals. Once this class of weapon has been largely eradicated move onto another one and continue. Having gun amnesties would be a good idea as well where people are given freedom from prosecution if they hand in their firearm to be destroyed you can offer a small cash incentive to sweeten the deal as well.
I'm glad at the outcome of this particular case as well hippie.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 2:38:10 PM

IronBear

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Before we had the unnecessary restrictive gun laws here, the Queensland Govt was on the verge of passing laws allowing the use of lethal force to protect the home and car and especially so for home invasions. The fact that the young racial gangs are oft armed with pistols and in some cases with automatic weapons demonstrated the point which a good number of us had said: "Outlaw guns and only outlaws will have guns." Having said this, I am a firm believer on well policed gun licencinmg and the total bans of military type weapons and automatic and guns unless used for target shooting. There was a move to remove guns from Security Firms but thank God some common sence was in play and the restrictions for Security Weapions simply meant that we could only have a 5 shot pump action shot gun and that the hand guns were restricted to .357 magnum being the largest (I agree with this). This is especially advantagious seeing that so many Security Officers either patrol or do static gard duties on petrol stations and bottle shops solo with little back-up other than a 000 call for Police assistance. I know from personal experience that being licenced to carry a weapon on duty as a Security Officer saved my life on the occaskions when I was either stabbed or shot. Sadly in each case the offenders were youths. I have found that most of those who lead the way in desiring to bann firearms have either lost someone in a shooting icident (I can understand their desire in these cases) or have never faced a person or persons armed with either a gun, infected needle or a blade. One of my niche Counselling areas is dealing with people who have been threatened or assulted by an armed offender or who have used either a gun or blade to defend themselves. Removing guns from the polulation is at best a bandaid measure where as society itself needs to change so that people do not fear for their lives especially at night or opperatring a business at night (for example). There is no easy answers and it will sadly take time to deal with the issues involved.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 2:41:23 PM

ThatDaveGuy69

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I'm not a member of the NRA but I wholeheartedly agree with the statement: "Outlaw guns and only outlaws will have guns".
Here in Chicago, King Richard II did another photo-op gun buy-back over the weekend. It's completely meaningless to buy guns from honest people as they aren't the one doing the shooting out on the streets.

This has been a very deadly year for school students in Chicago, with literally dozens of kids being killed when caught in gang cross-fire. Not one of the guns turned-in this weekend will be found to have been involved in any of those shootings. Those guns are still in the hands of the gang-bangers, drug dealers, and hard-core criminals. More anti-gun laws won't make the streets any safer. And stepped-up enforcemnet of existing laws won't help much, either.

The real solutions aren't as simple as a 30-secong sound bite.

What is needed is a complete overhaul of education - it all starts with learning how to learn and how to succeed in school.

We also need to completely overhaul everything that has to do with manufacturing in this country. There is absolutely no reason why we can't make all those electronics here instead of paying the Chinese for them. We need to create a new foundation for manufacturing so that people will have jobs.

We also need to get serious about drugs in this country. Let's face it: the "War On Drugs" is over and we lost. We could put an end to at least 1/2 the crime if we legalized and regulated illicit drugs. Forget about the tax revues - just imagine the savings from not having the whole culture of illegal drugs.

But these are difficult issues that take real leadership to tackle. And let's face: leadership is the one thing that is profoundly lacking in this country on both sides of The Aisle.

~Dave

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 2:41:34 PM

Starbuck09

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Bear it is because of my experiences with firearms that I want them banned not my lack of them. The arming of the police with firearms is a slightly different debate and I think there is a good case [though not watertight]that police in Britian should be allowed to carry a side arm.

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Post #: 15

RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 2:45:36 PM

Starbuck09

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Outlaw guns and only outlaws will have them is true. But I think it's important to point outhatthat doesn't mean neccesarily thatall outlaws will have them. If the laws are properly thought out and properly policed an outlaw possessing a firearm should be a very rare occurence indeed. I think a good cultural change would be to promote a firearm as a coward's weapon rather than glamourising them and making them objects of power and desire not to mention sex appeal.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 2:49:44 PM

IronBear

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Fair enough Starbuck, I know I am biased and have handled guns of all sorts all my adult like from hunting rifles, shotguns for bird hunting, pistols at a pistol club and of course during my time in the Australian Army (SAS) and in the US Military (SF) and continually since with my merc Company and of course Security work. I'm a stickler on firearm safety. I can say with reasonable accuracy that the only people I have pointed a gun at were those I was prepared to shoot and the only people I have shot were those I intended to shoot.

Sadly, you could place a total ban on all firearms and criminals will still get them. I can get any firearm made and even grenades or rockets if I am prepared to pay enough money.

< Message edited by IronBear -- 8/16/2009 2:52:42 PM >

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 2:54:04 PM

Starbuck09

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No worries bear and I have no problem whatsoever with people who are properly trained and psychologically stable owning firearms. But like you say you are a stickler for firearm safety as a product of your time in the military which is the greatest way to learn respect for a firearm. Sadly though I think most people are a menace to themselves and others [whether they are criminals or not] with a gun in their hand.
On a different note Australian SAS? I am most impressed Bear good for you mate!

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 2:54:40 PM

DomKen

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Actually one simple gun control law will over time greatly reduce teh amount of gun crime. Simply ban the manufacture and import of handguns and handgun ammo period. We make most of the guns used in crimes, see specifically the so called ring of fire companies. With no new guns entering the mearket and police seizing and destroying guns when found to possessed illegaly the number of guns and the supply of ammunition will dwindle to nothing, as has happened in places like the UK with their almost complete ban.

The 2nd ammendment arguments are completely off base. Either it actually means what the NRA claims, in which case no restriction on guns of any kind is allowed and all the laws against military ordinance are unconstitutional (completely absurd), or it means what it literally says which means that police and the National Guard can be armed.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 2:56:32 PM

Starbuck09

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Sorry I missed your edit bear. I agree that you can never stamp out gun crime entirely, but I think strict laws can slash the figures for it. I would much rather have a very small percentage of criminals with guns and run the risk of not having civilians armed verus having virtually all criminals armed.

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