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RE: Have Fun Teabagging Washington - 9/14/2009 12:16:28 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

I don't think, Domken, that the democrats will see this as a small demonstration. I think they will see it as the excact opposite. We will soon see when it comes time for them to vote on this boondoggle health care plan. Cap and trade comes next. Then they all get shown the door.

ORIGINAL: servantforuse



Why would the democrats not see this as a small demonstration. It was a small demonstration. Compared to the crowds gathered by issues like reproductive rights, the war in Iraq, gay rights, black rights this was a  ripple in the pond. Without addressing the right or wrong of their position, why would the democrats view this demonstration as overly important?



Well, actually, many on the left wish to see it as a "small demonstration.

There are no official estimates.

The only "estimate" published by any US news organization is one from ABC in which "they heard from an anonymous Fire Department person" of about 60-70k. On the Fire Department's website, there is no such estimate (at least that I could find).

Unfortunately for the left, and for ABC, many other's heard from anonymous Police Department personnel that the numbers were much larger.

The UKs Daily Mail estimated up to 1 million people.

According to USAToday, back during the Obama inauguration, here is a method to calculate how many people attend rallies and protests:

Park service changes course, plans to offer crowd estimate

The "mouse over" is pretty neat on their graphic at the top of the story.

Here is how they verbally said the Park Service estimates capacity:

Estimating the size of a crowd requires aerial photographs, dimensions of the gathering space, and an estimate of the crowd's density.

If the National Mall is densely packed from Third Street to the Washington Monument, and if the area from the monument to the Lincoln Memorial has an average density, the space could contain 1.5 million people, Barna said. Average density is one person per 5 square feet.

There are plenty of graphics of the crowd on the net, but here is a time lapsed video:

1.5 to 2 million march on Washington D.C Tea Party protest rally September 12 2009

I'm not an expert on the Washington DC area, but the New York Times also gives a verbal description:

Thousands Rally in Capital to Protest Big Government

Here is what they say:

WASHINGTON — A sea of protesters filled the west lawn of the Capitol and spilled onto the National Mall on Saturday in the largest rally against President Obama since he took office, a culmination of a summer-long season of protests that began with opposition to a health care overhaul and grew into a broader dissatisfaction with government.

...

The demonstrators numbered well into the tens of thousands, though the police declined to estimate the size of the crowd. Many came on their own and were not part of an organization or group. But the magnitude of the rally took the authorities by surprise, with throngs of people streaming from the White House to Capitol Hill for more than three hours.



So, putting it all together, it appears - especially matching the NYT's verbal description, and the USAToday's graphic, that the low side estimate of people would be at least 240,000 people, and upwards to an excess of 1 million.

But ... I guess we just trust the anonomyous sources of ABC's "someone tole' me that someone tole' me" that it was only a small, minor demonstration of a few thousand petty, bickering assholes who don't even know what they are talking about ....

Marginalization, anyone?

Firm

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RE: Have Fun Teabagging Washington - 9/14/2009 12:41:55 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

Well, Bush, Cheney & Co. are war criminals.
Really? Wow! Don't know how I missed that...which court indicted them, which court convicted them?

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RE: Have Fun Teabagging Washington - 9/14/2009 1:05:36 PM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2009/sep/14/tea-party-photo-shows-large-crowd-different-event/

"It was an impressive crowd," he said. But after marching down Pennsylvania Avenue to the Capitol the crowd "only filled the Capitol grounds, maybe up to Third Street," he said.

Yet the photo showed the crowd sprawling far beyond that to the Washington Monument, which is bordered by 15th and and 17th Streets.

There's another big problem with the photograph: it doesn't include the National Museum of the American Indian, a building located at the corner of Fourth St. and Independence Ave. that opened on Sept. 14, 2004. (Looking at the photograph, the building should be in the upper right hand corner of the National Mall, next to the Air and Space Museum.) That means the picture was taken before the museum opened exactly five years ago. So clearly the photo doesn't show the "tea party" crowd from the Sept. 12 protest. Also worth noting are the cranes in front of the Natural History Museum (the second building from the lower left of the National Mall). According to Randall Kremer, the museum's director of public affairs, "The last time cranes were in front was in the 1990s when the IMAX theater was being built." That makes the picture at least a decade old. (We'll update this item if we find out when exactly it was taken.) The conservative bloggers who originally posted the picture have backed down.



I saw another supposed pic taken from the weekend, the only trouble was that it was easier to debunk, because all the trees were bare....

Lucy


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RE: Have Fun Teabagging Washington - 9/14/2009 1:14:58 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Status: offline 		So ... you dispute the USAToday graphic, and the New York Times verbal description?

Firm


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RE: Have Fun Teabagging Washington - 9/14/2009 1:20:13 PM   
FirmhandKY


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We spoke with Pete Piringer, public affairs officer for the D.C. Fire and Emergency Department, who said that the local government no longer provides official crowd estimates because they can become politicized. That said, on the morning of Sept. 12, Piringer unofficially told one reporter that he thought between 60,000 and 75,000 people had shown up.

"It was in no way an official estimate," he said.


You catch that?

We don't do estimates. It can become political. Here is the estimate. But we can't give estimates.

His estimate is then used to politicize the protest.

You think he knew that before he "unofficially" told one anonymous reporter?



< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 9/14/2009 1:22:30 PM >

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RE: Have Fun Teabagging Washington - 9/14/2009 1:40:10 PM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		Im just responding to the topic, Politifact has a page saying that "a picture"  was a fraud,
also ABC got the information regarding 60 -70,000 from the same place,
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/protest-crowd-size-estimate-falsely-attributed-abc-news/story?id=855805
All this stems from this ____________________ being 8 inches
people over exaggerate to get their own needs met....
Im not making guesses Im just showing alternate stories.
dont get so upset tis no big thing....
Lucy




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RE: Have Fun Teabagging Washington - 9/14/2009 1:52:28 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Im just responding to the topic, Politifact has a page saying that "a picture"  was a fraud,
also ABC got the information regarding 60 -70,000 from the same place,
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/protest-crowd-size-estimate-falsely-attributed-abc-news/story?id=855805
All this stems from this ____________________ being 8 inches
people over exaggerate to get their own needs met....
Im not making guesses Im just showing alternate stories.
dont get so upset tis no big thing....
Lucy


"No big thing ..." because you can't dispute the calculations of the USAToday for the Obama inauguration and the New York Times description of the crowd?

You do find the analysis of Obama's inaugural accurate don't you? You don't believe that the New York Times is lying or being partisan for the Tea Party, do you?

You claim to be "just showing alternate stories".

That rings kinda hollow over here.

Firm

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RE: Have Fun Teabagging Washington - 9/14/2009 2:06:26 PM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		I couldnt give a flying fart how it sounds to you.
I couldnt give a damn if it was one, two or three hundred thousand or million.
I mentioned the discrepancies and other reports
dont be so quick to make assumptions...
dick waving and chest thumping over who has the best political protest is just an exercise in mental masturbation and doesnt prove anything but does make the masturbator happy.
have at it.



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RE: Have Fun Teabagging Washington - 9/14/2009 2:13:42 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
Im just responding to the topic, Politifact has a page saying that "a picture"  was a fraud,
also ABC got the information regarding 60 -70,000 from the same place,...
Lucy

"No big thing ..." because you can't dispute the calculations of the USAToday for the Obama inauguration and the New York Times description of the crowd?

You do find the analysis of Obama's inaugural accurate don't you? You don't believe that the New York Times is lying or being partisan for the Tea Party, do you?

You claim to be "just showing alternate stories".

Firm


The news sources and 'reporters' strive to make themselves 'stars' and stories.

The result...
Similarly, only about a quarter (26%) now say that news organizations are careful that their reporting is not politically biased, compared with 60% who say news organizations are politically biased. And the percentages saying that news organizations are independent of powerful people and organizations (20%) or are willing to admit their mistakes (21%) now also match all-time lows. Hell, with the current state of media, you can always change the channel until you find a source where you can head-bob to the tune they are singing.

This is just like reelecting your local politician and sending him/her to Congress because they are "different" than the collective bunch of special interests lackeys running the show.

Consider this quote from the same source; "Just 29% of Americans say that news organizations generally get the facts straight, while 63% say that news stories are often inaccurate."
But of course - when the source backs your position - you're one of the 29%. When it doesn't...

Collectively they are no different, better or worse, than 'Kanye West' at advancing their own agenda - selling commercials. When people become their own best 'investigative reporters' and use any news source as the starting point of forming an opinion instead of head bobbing to what limited perspective you're being fed; maybe then we will have an informed voting public not motivated by 'buzz-words' and mud slinging.

Then again, that would require a desire for the facts instead of the news. An open mind would also be a good thing.

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RE: Have Fun Teabagging Washington - 9/14/2009 2:38:55 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

I couldnt give a flying fart how it sounds to you.

It seems that you do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

I couldnt give a damn if it was one, two or three hundred thousand or million.

Then why post about it, especially right after my post where I give some pretty reliable information that the "official" estimates were way low?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

I mentioned the discrepancies and other reports

Why, if you didn't "give a damn"?

Your "discrepancies" did not even address any of my post's points.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

dont be so quick to make assumptions...

What assumptions would those be?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

dick waving and chest thumping over who has the best political protest is just an exercise in mental masturbation and doesnt prove anything but does make the masturbator happy.

So why did you post, if not in an attempt to support the meme that the protestor was a "small, minor" event? Just "providing information", huh? Why all the anger, Lucy? You just expect to post a hit-n-run piece, and not have anyone challenge you? That's what the P&R forums are all about, the give and take of ideas.

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 9/14/2009 2:39:29 PM >

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RE: Have Fun Teabagging Washington - 9/14/2009 2:52:40 PM   
FirmhandKY


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More reality based estimates:

An Impression Of The Protest:

Analysis 1: This gives a range of 240,000 to 320,000 marchers down Pennsylvania Ave, and is based on the time-lapse march route video plus measurements of the route taken from Google Maps. The time-lapse sequence was taken from a webcam over Freedom Plaza at 14th St and E NW, looking ESE down Pennsylvania Avenue toward the Capitol.

Analysis 2: This one gives a range of 330,000 to 500,000 demonstrators in front of the Capitol, and is based on the NYT description of the crowd (”A sea of protesters filled the west lawn of the Capitol and spilled onto the National Mall) plus the first photo in the story at the Daily Mail, showing the Capitol West Lawn during the protest, plus measurements taken from Google Maps sat view of the area.


How many people were at the big 9/12 "Tea Party" protest?:

So, if, for the sake of argument, the Mall to Fourteenth, at [1.18 x 0.5 =] .59 sq. mi., holds 1.2M people, and Penn. Ave. to Fourteenth is [1.25 x 0.2] = .25 sq. mi., then you've got something just over 500K people in that picture.

So add that to 80K, and you're up around 600K.

Buuuuut, apparently there were people going from the White House to the Capitol “for three hours” according to the caption here.

...

So, if the 40-second video is an accurate time-lapse of the 210 minutes from 8:00-11:30, then the 21-36 second march portion actually represents the 78.75 minutes from 9:50:15 to 11:09:00—much less than three hours. Every second represents five and a quarter minutes. If our 500K/30 minutes is right, then there are 87,500 people leaving every second of the video. Which, by the end of the thirty-sixth second means that 1,812,500 people have left. We’re in territory close to the Daily Mail’s number.

...

If we treat the USA Today chart as authoritative, this shows well in excess of LBJ’s 1.2 million people. Doing a quick-and-dirty estimate of the amount of ground the crowds around the Washington Monument are occupying gives another couple hundred thousand, putting the total around 1.5 million.

...

Now. Here's what happens. If you use the usual method of computing massed crowds (the one the journalists use), you divide the square footage by two... and you get 1,175,035. That's where the 1.2 million number comes from.

...

We don't think this crowd is tightly packed, especially if it was walking and converging. We would say the crowd is tighter closest to the Capitol, and fading back to about 9 square feet per person. We boldly suggest there are between 600,000-750,000 people in this picture!


March on Washington: How Big Was the Crowd?:

There have been a lot of estimates, from the “official” one of 60 to 70 thousand, up to the rumored 2 million. Let’s see if we can make a plausible estimate with some rigor and some idea of possible error.

...

In that time, there would be enough people to fill that chunk of Pennsylvania about 8 times. That’s conservative, as what I’ve heard from people actually marching is that it was pretty packed; it wouldn’t be hard to believe the 1.5 million number either.

That’s 800,000 people.

The Park Service method, filling just the Capitol end of the Mall, is 250,000, but we have many reports of much overflow, and we also can figure that they wouldn’t have marched past for three full hours if there were only that many.

The legacy media estimate of 60-70 thousand is ludicrous: we have pictures of twice that. Still, it’s been reported, so we’ll keep it.

That’s a pretty wide range. To summarize:

Rumored number 2 million
“People meter” count 1.5 million
Eight “Pennsylvania Avenues” full of people 800 thousand
Grant Memorial area by Park Service method 250 thousand
Legacy media reports 70 thousand

Average all of those and we get 900,000 plus (924,000). Throw out the outliers, we get 850,000. And remember that the 1.5 million was a real count; it’s inherently a more believable number. Our estimate should be “pulled” upward by that.

Conclusion: probably well more than 850,000 in the crowd.


You can argue the math, and change the assumptions, but no matter how you slice it, the numbers certainly aren't "10's of thousands", but "100's of thousands".

Firm

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RE: Have Fun Teabagging Washington - 9/14/2009 3:14:57 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

There is no COLA for 2010 because there has been no inflation in 2009. That's what determines if a COLA is made. This isn't a decision by anyone but a statutory process that involves the official rate of inflation. Projections are that price deflation will continue into 2010 so a COLA won't be made in 2011 either unless the situation changes. However benefits won't be reduced and with prices deflating your elderly parents benefits will increase in buying power so they still come out ahead.

So if you're wrong about that maybe you should reexamine your sources of information on the rest.



LMAO. No inflation in 2009? Guess you don't do much food shopping.

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RE: Have Fun Teabagging Washington - 9/14/2009 3:33:17 PM   
MarsBonfire


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Status: offline 		Just a couple of observations: It has been found that the teabaggers released a supposed aireal view of their event on Saturday, showing the national mall clogged with their supporters. This was an official release by the organizations that sponsored it. (Apparently, Glenn Beck was involved, but is now distancing himself from the photo's release.) Upon examination, it was noticed that several constructions, including the new Native American Museum, were missing fromt he photograph, placing it as a view of a march that took place AT LEAST five years ago, if not more.

So, teabaggers, "You LIE!"

Secondly, most of the independant services that are hired to gauge the attendance to such things, have agreed that the Sept. 12  March ranged somewhere in the 60K range, with a probable fudge factor of + or - 5%. In comparison, San Diego Comicon '09 was attended by 175,000 people, and their numbers were down from previous years, thanks to the poor economy. So, this popcorn fart of a protest was less than HALF of an annual gatheirng of comic book fans.

Maybe you could get your attendance numbers up if you all dressed as "Fatman" (with his incredible windbag powers, and holding a golden microphone) or maybe "The Incredible Crybaby" or "Lady Death Panel."

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RE: Have Fun Teabagging Washington - 9/14/2009 3:34:34 PM   
Slavehandsome


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RE: Have Fun Teabagging Washington - 9/14/2009 4:01:31 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1213056/Up-million-march-US-Capitol-protest-Obamas-spending-tea-party-demonstration.html

My problem with this link....

The title of the article

quote:

A million march to US Capitol to protest against 'Obama the socialist'


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1213056/Up-million-march-US-Capitol-protest-Obamas-spending-tea-party-demonstration.html#ixzz0R7kHOVgw

The picture states another number....

quote:

Tens of thousands of people converged on Capitol Hill on Saturday to protest against government spending



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1213056/Up-million-march-US-Capitol-protest-Obamas-spending-tea-party-demonstration.html#ixzz0R7kHOVgw

And, if you look to the top of your browser, at least in IE, you see.. and i have to type this out...

"Up to two million march to US Capitol to protest against Obama's spending in 'tea-party' demons"

Seems within even the same article, they cant be sure...



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RE: Have Fun Teabagging Washington - 9/14/2009 4:03:15 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

So, teabaggers, "You LIE!"

So much attention and concern for something that allegedly doesn't matter. SOMEbody's lying for sure!


All of them, regardless of the number, "you" who should be "dressed as Fatman"; because their concerns and issues don't make your head-bob like those from your sources.

Meanwhile, unemployment at all time highs in many States. The only 'stimulus' has gone for paying out executive bonuses and bailing out union contracts. Not a peep out of the "Millions" (because obviously those numbers were correct) who where there in January expecting that by now there would at least be a start of the withdraw from Iraq, a winding down instead of escalation of the war in Afghanistan, and those people incarcerated at Gitmo (the FIRST thing signed) would be released. You wonder why exactly they weren't there to march against this Administration. Or perhaps they were, unless their tolerance for lying was agenda based.

Hilarious, like a Greek tragedy

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RE: Have Fun Teabagging Washington - 9/14/2009 4:27:28 PM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

Absolutely hilarious! ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY




Glad to see you in such good humor, Firm. If you think that's hilarious, you're going to love this. I do enjoy rip and read humor:

This is an article posted on foxnews.com
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/11/tea-party-rally-sparks-dispute-potential-turnout/

To sum up, let's look at some parts of this article.
"Democrats are sounding the alarms over the potential turnout at a planned protest in the nation's capital Saturday by opponents of President Obama's domestic policies, but protest organizers say the Democrats' numbers don't add up."

Yes, there was a memo made public that suggested that up to 2,000,000 people could possibly attend the tea party demonstration. What did the organizers of the demonstration have to say about this?

"It's an old political tactic to get out in front and make wild projections and when they're not met, claim their opponents don't have the juice," said Pete Sepp, a spokesman for the National TaxpayersUnion,one of the organizers of the rally.Sepp said there's only one reason to float a number that high."You set the bar at 2 million and anything under it becomes a failure," he said, adding that any event in D.C. that attracts 50,000 is considered a success.A crowd of 2 million people, he said, "would exceed our wildest dreams."

What did the organizers expect? According to their own words:

"FreedomWorks, the lead organizer who has largely bankrolled the rallies leading up to Saturday's march in Washington, D.C. has said it is expecting tens of thousands to attend. Adam Brandon, a spokesman for FreedomWorks, told Politico he expects the crowd to be in the 20,000-30,000 range."

So let's try to get a handle on this. The Democrats floated a number that the organizers themselves treated as ridiculous as a plan to make the demonstrators look bad. The very organizers of this march only expected 20,000 to 30,000 attendees. Then, lo and behold! A crowd 40 times greater than the most optimistic estimates of the organizers of the protest themselves suddenly and unexpectedly appears as if flocking to a right wing Woodstock. This results in a crowd that, in size, equals the number of people who attended Barak Obama's inauguration added to the number of people who attended the Million Man March. But the media, including Fox News itself, makes no mention of this incredible throng of angry right wing patriots because of their scheme to marginalize anyone who isn't a liberal.

You can't make this stuff up. Wait a minute. You CAN make this stuff up.

< Message edited by SpinnerofTales -- 9/14/2009 4:29:47 PM >

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RE: Have Fun Teabagging Washington - 9/14/2009 4:54:04 PM   
DomKen


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Status: offline 		So the organizers were so underwhelmed by the crowd they used photos of other demonastrations to try and convince people the crowd was bigger? That's staggeringly funny.

BTW for those who are confused about the actual crowd size read the first hand reports. The crowd was very small for D.C. rallies. The anti abortion groups do better every year on the anniversary of Roe v Wade (the March for Life).

If the crowd didn't even get to Third Street from the Capital steps it was about what the FD said 60k. maybe if they really packed in 80 or 100k but not more, the inauguration got more in by having them in chairs tightly packed which means less than 5^2 feet per person. You have to remember that a big chunk of the area right there is the Capital Reflecting Pool so there is comparitively little square footage to stand there . Really big events put their speakers up near the Washington Monument and turn the whole crowd around. If this protest's organizers chose the Capital steps they were expecting a tiny turnout.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 9/14/2009 4:56:35 PM >

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RE: Have Fun Teabagging Washington - 9/14/2009 5:03:07 PM   
Arpig


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Status: offline 		Really kids,what difference does it make how many people showed up. 10,000...100,000...1,000,00 ... makes no difference. The protest was, like all such protests, staged for the photo ops. That and to make those who participated feel (erroneously) as if they are actually doing something about whatever it is that is bothering them. I am sure it was fun for all involved (well except for the sanitation workers who have to clean it all up by Monday morning of course),and that local businesses made a bunch of cash...but its really just farts in the wind, I mean this thread hasn't addressed anything they were protesting and has been about how many people there were...and it seems there has been some not-so slick attempts to establish a greater number than was actually there.

Well I for one am happy for the righties, they had a great day out in the fall weather while it is still summer-like and they got a lot of media coverage...which was the intent...well done. Its really a lot of fun isn't it...now you know why the lefties are so quick to stage these sorts of things. Hope your next one is as much fun as well...and there will be others, you have a minimum of 3 more years of this to look forward to...go get em! And between protests you might consider doing something really useful about promoting your viewpoint...you know something that will actually have an effect.


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RE: Have Fun Teabagging Washington - 9/14/2009 5:13:00 PM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

Well I for one am happy for the righties, they had a great day out in the fall weather while it is still summer-like and they got a lot of media coverage...which was the intent...well done. Its really a lot of fun isn't it...now you know why the lefties are so quick to stage these sorts of things. Hope your next one is as much fun as well...and there will be others, you have a minimum of 3 more years of this to look forward to...go get em! And between protests you might consider doing something really useful about promoting your viewpoint...you know something that will actually have an effect. ORIGINAL: Arpig




I'm 100% on your side on this one Ar. The whole point of starting this thread was that, while I don't agree with a thing that the tea party patriots (god I miss calling them teabaggers because I find it amusing but I'm trying to behave) are promoting, I think it a wonderful thing that they are as free to stage a demonstration to highlight their opinions as those I agree with are free to do the same. In fact, if anyone tried to take this right away from them, I would be jumping onto the protest train faster than you can say (insert your own partisan insult at the other side here).

I have quoted this before, and I'll probably quote it again. "I may not agree with a thing you say but I'll defend to my death your right to say it." I don't know a quotation on any subject I find more laudable than that.

(in reply to Arpig)
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