RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right

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Sanity -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/20/2009 7:10:01 PM)
Lets say for the sake of argument that all of Obama's close association with these known racists over the past twenty some years is flimsy evidence that he is a racist. I don't agree for a moment, because I know its damning as hell and I also know full well that were he a Republican with that kind of scandalous background there would be riots. Still, even if it were "flimsy" as you curiously insist its far more evidence than Jimmy carter has or that Mathew Norman has backing their charges of racism, isn't it. quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Im not changing any subject. You clearly claim Obama is racist, Im clearly saying thats B/s. Your idea of proof is very flimsy, show me something concrete and not just mudslinging.

SpinnerofTales -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/20/2009 7:10:38 PM)
Actually, Firm, I was deleting the post rather than go into the "Look how good they are" "Look how bad they are" cycle...but since I was too late, I will be glad to cite my sources. This link: http://knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclopedia/Haley_Barbour/ documents Governer Barbour's connections with the CCC. This link will take one to their "Statement of purpose": http://cofcc.org/?page_id=71 Item 2 contains the quotes you asked cited. quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales Which party has nominated Haley Barbour as Governer of Mississippi, a man who openly supports the CCC (Committee of Concerned Citizens) who has on their own website, gems about their goals such as: "We believe the United States is a European country and that Americans are part of the European people." We believe that the United States derives from and is an integral part of European civilization and the European people and that the American people and government should remain European in their composition and character. We therefore oppose the massive immigration of non-European and non-Western peoples into the United States that threatens to transform our nation into a non-European majority in our lifetime. We believe that illegal immigration must be stopped, if necessary by military force and placing troops on our national borders; that illegal aliens must be returned to their own countries; and that legal immigration must be severely restricted or halted through appropriate changes in our laws and policies. We also oppose all efforts to mix the races of mankind, to promote non-white races over the European-American people through so-called “affirmative action” and similar measures, to destroy or denigrate the European-American heritage, including the heritage of the Southern people, and to force the integration of the races." quote: Cite please. Firm

FirmhandKY -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/20/2009 7:55:33 PM)
FR: I think this is pertinent to the discussion: To understand the mindset of the politically correct, there are a few rules of racial relations that you need to know. These rules establish the Hierarchy of Multiculturalism: 1. If a person is a member of a group guilty of past racial oppression, that person has no moral standing in relation to anyone in any group that’s ever been a victim of that oppression. 2. A member of an oppressor group is always assumed to be guilty in relation to a member of a victim group. 3. An oppressor can only avoid presumed guilt by making a display of his or her sympathy for the oppressed. 4. Members of victim groups can lose their moral standing by expressing a preference for individual rights as opposed to group rights. 5. Advocating on behalf of a victim makes one almost as unassailable as being that victim. 6. Coming to the defense of an oppressor is even more repugnant than being that oppressor. This thinking is so common these days that many prominent liberals–from New York Times columnists to former presidents–believe that criticism of President Obama can only be motivated by racial bigotry. That’s because people at a lower rung of the Multicultural Hierarchy are never allowed to challenge those above them. The purpose of this is to quell criticism and enforce thought conformity. Why break the rules and risk being thought of as a bigot? Media coverage of Kanye West’s latest outburst at the MTV Video Music Awards illustrates this. Imagine the racial roles reversed: It’s the Country Music Awards. A black female performer is accepting her first-ever award. She’s happy and a bit surprised; her style of music doesn’t usually win Country Music Awards. Halfway through her emotional acceptance speech, a white male country music singer runs up on stage, grabs the microphone from her, and announces that another woman should have won, a white woman–a “real” country singer–instead of the underdog black woman. I’d bet my life savings that the reporting would be quite different than what happened in Kanye’s case. Sure, he was roundly criticized in the media, but we’re in an age when hidden motivations are attributed to every interracial interaction, so it’s interesting that few dared to discuss a racial angle to the Kanye West/Taylor Swift confrontation. There’s a simple explanation. By the rules of the Hierarchy of Multiculturalism, when a member of a victim group is the actual victim in a real-world encounter, it’s an example of oppression. But when an oppressor becomes a victim in real life, that’s just karma, man. Any possible racial angle becomes irrelevant. *** We are seeing exactly this in this thread. Firm

SpinnerofTales -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/20/2009 8:17:13 PM)
quote: There’s a simple explanation. By the rules of the Hierarchy of Multiculturalism, when a member of a victim group is the actual victim in a real-world encounter, it’s an example of oppression. But when an oppressor becomes a victim in real life, that’s just karma, man. Any possible racial angle becomes irrelevant. *** We are seeing exactly this in this thread. ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY You're doing it again, Firm. You are presenting links and quotes as if they were either impartial fact or the words of those you disagree with when this is not the case at all. This is a link to yet another far right wing website who is trying to present a twisted and incorrect version of what is being said by those they disagree with. Either you didn't realize that this was not either a multicularlist's, progressive (liberal if you like) or anti-racism explanation of their position, or you didn't want us to know. Either way, we have heard it all before from the far right. It isn't that the left want to correct serious the serious problems of racism in this country. It's just that they want to pick on the poor, misunderstood white male. And I ask again. I keep hearing this "Poor me, I'm the victim of reverse racism". What ill effects have you suffered in your life because you happen to be white? I open this to any who are decrying this horrible reverse-racism they claim to suffer. What has happened that puts you into this "victim" class that this post claims is accepted by the evil, racists who are making your lives so unlivable?

FirmhandKY -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/20/2009 8:22:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales quote: There’s a simple explanation. By the rules of the Hierarchy of Multiculturalism, when a member of a victim group is the actual victim in a real-world encounter, it’s an example of oppression. But when an oppressor becomes a victim in real life, that’s just karma, man. Any possible racial angle becomes irrelevant. *** We are seeing exactly this in this thread. ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY You're doing it again, Firm. You are presenting links and quotes as if they were either impartial fact or the words of those you disagree with when this is not the case at all. This is a link to yet another far right wing website who is trying to present a twisted and incorrect version of what is being said by those they disagree with. Either you didn't realize that this was not either a multicularlist's, progressive (liberal if you like) or anti-racism explanation of their position, or you didn't want us to know. Either way, we have heard it all before from the far right. It isn't that the left want to correct serious the serious problems of racism in this country. It's just that they want to pick on the poor, misunderstood white male. And I ask again. I keep hearing this "Poor me, I'm the victim of reverse racism". What ill effects have you suffered in your life because you happen to be white? I open this to any who are decrying this horrible reverse-racism they claim to suffer. What has happened that puts you into this "victim" class that this post claims is accepted by the evil, racists who are making your lives so unlivable? Then you are totally missing "it's about individual rights, not group rights" that I keep mentioning. Firm

SpinnerofTales -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/20/2009 8:34:04 PM)
quote: Then you are totally missing "it's about individual rights, not group rights" that I keep mentioning. ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY And I ask again, in what way have your "individual rights" been violated? What has been done to you as an individual that has you so up in arms? What has been done to anyone you know as "an individual" that has you so terribly upset? Can you come up with anything that has been done to you before or since the advent of this vast left wing conspiracy you seem to dread so much that has affected you "as an individual"? So far, I haven't seen a lot of examples of any "individual rights" violation you seem all upset about. Illuminate me. Oh...and once you've answered that question, we can talk about how this whole "individual rights" vs "group rights" concept is a load of hogwash designed to make sure nothing changes for the better.

gift4mistress -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/20/2009 8:45:08 PM)
I lean more toward the right on politics, so I suppose that makes me a racist/sexist/Anti-Semite/etc [:o]. I know that communist (those on the way left) aren't racist. I mean, Stalin loved the Jews; he never prosecuted, jailed, or kicked them out of his nation. Also, we all know that the republicans weren't the ones that wanted freedom for the black slaves. And, that Lincoln wasn't a republican (http://www.whitehouse.gov/about/presidents/abrahamlincoln/) "As President, he built the Republican Party into a strong national organization. Further, he rallied most of the northern Democrats to the Union cause. On January 1, 1863, he issued the Emancipation Proclamation that declared forever free those slaves within the Confederacy." I believe that all communists, democrats, and anyone else on the left have never ever been racist in the entire time of mans existence. No, it was all those on the right (Republicans, Fascists, and anyone else on the right). It would be a walking contradiction for one to be on the right and not be racist. That's like having the frosting on the outside of an Oreo.

tazzygirl -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/20/2009 9:42:45 PM)
quote: As president, Reagan named Samuel Pierce, a black man, as his secretary of Housing and Urban Development. While Pierce was outside Reagan’s inner circle, he was in Reagan’s Cabinet. In 1982, Reagan promoted Roscoe Robinson to become the Army’s first black four-star general. Reagan also helped place Clarence Thomas on his path to the United States Supreme Court by naming him chairman of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. Reagan’s critics may dismiss these appointees as “tokens.” Of course, they also would denounce Reagan for racism if he had zero appointees of color. Either way, Reagan loses. Krugman’s latest sludge bucket holds this lump of deep thought: Reagan’s defenders protest furiously that he wasn’t personally bigoted. So what? We’re talking about his political strategy. His personal beliefs are irrelevant. O.K., so Reagan loved blacks personally, but pushed us around politically to earn for himself and other Republicans the loyalty of bigoted white voters? So, let’s see: Reagan invited news cameras to capture him extending the Voting Rights Act in 1982 and signing the MLK holiday into law while sitting beside King’s widow in 1983. This clearly was part of Reagan’s effort to boost his standing among white bigots before seeking reelection in 1984. And how about making Colin Powell America’s first black NSC chief and enriching Choctaws and Seminoles? Obviously, this was meant to galvanize white racists into electing Reagan’s successor, G. H. W. Bush. “Why is this slur being floated now?” wonders Hoover Institution scholar Martin Anderson, Reagan’s long-time aide, chief White House domestic-policy adviser, and co-editor of several books documenting Reagan’s insightful, hand-written, speeches, and correspondence on public affairs. “I don’t know — maybe the 20th anniversary of Reagan’s departure from office, which is looming ahead, will show that his legacy is far more important than we knew. And that will be intolerable to a lot of people.” Especially with the White House at stake, Leftist hacks like Paul Krugman and Bob Herbert will keep trying to smear Ronald Reagan as a racist. The obvious implication is that those of us who love America’s 40th president also are either racists or self-hating blacks. http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NjNkZDZjMWU0YjgxZDFjMmJiZjJlMjg0MTg2NTdlNzk=&w=MQ== Then there is this http://www.impactpress.com/articles/augsep04/reagan8904.html quote: CBS may cancel 'Reagans' mini-series over GOP protests. November 4, 2003 2:17 AM Subscribe CBS may cancel 'The Reagans' mini-series over GOP protests. Rep. John Dingall has some thoughts on the matter: As someone who served with President Reagan, and in the interest of historical accuracy, please allow me to share with you some of my recollections of the Reagan years that I hope will make it into the final cut of the mini-series: $640 Pentagon toilets seats; ketchup as a vegetable; union busting; firing striking air traffic controllers; Iran-Contra; selling arms to terrorist nations; trading arms for hostages; retreating from terrorists in Beirut; lying to Congress; financing an illegal war in Nicaragua; visiting Bitburg cemetery; a cozy relationship with Saddam Hussein; shredding documents; Ed Meese; Fawn Hall; Oliver North; James Watt; apartheid apologia; the savings and loan scandal; voodoo economics; record budget deficits; double digit unemployment; farm bankruptcies; trade deficits; astrologers in the White House; Star Wars; and influence peddling. http://www.metafilter.com/29365/CBS-may-cancel-Reagans-miniseries-over-GOP-protests and this.... quote: Moving quickly to arrange for an orderly transfer of power from Carter, the Reagan campaign staff plans to open a transition office in Washington Thursday. The office, under the direction of Edwin Meese, Reagan's chief of staff, will set priorities, work on a federal budget for fiscal 1982, and begin preparations for the naming of 2,500 presidential appointees. http://encarta.msn.com/sidebar_761593934/reagan_wins_landslide_victory.html Sounds vaguely familiar.. dont it? Maybe i should see what i can find about the Bushes as well... lots of interesting comments. Then again, i hope that proves a point. I dont believe there has been a single President who hasnt had to deal with the racist issue, sexist issue ( Sandra O'Conner since you didnt figure that out) No one is perfect, everyone makes mistakes. a Huge mistake, in my opinion, is labling someone you dont even know based upon the actions of others.

DomKen -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/20/2009 10:49:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Based on false assumption. The number of whites affected, really affected not outraged that AA exists etc., is no where near 30%. Charitably I'll concede 0.1%. I think it's likely closer to 1 in 1 million than 1 in 1000 though. and quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen As to proportionality, you're back to arguing guilt by association and now down to arguing how close the association is. You'll need to provide some objective measure of how much association is enough to make someone guilty. I will of course use your standard to condemn the entire right wing. But please continue, your contortions have been hilarious, pathetic but hilarious. I'm still waiting for you to provide some "objective measure" of your 0.1%. My point was that "racism" shouldn't be tolerated, regardless of the race that is the object of racism. You, and others, seem to be excusing "racism" against one group, but not another, so I wasn't particularly worried about the exact numbers, other than to make a point. But I'm really curious if you can live up to your own "standard" of objective measurement on the subject. Any proof to back up your assertion? Firm I'll base my claim on the number who have won discrimination suits in the last 20 years. Do you have anything to support your claim of 30%? And right wing blogs with no data aren't going to cut it.

Politesub53 -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/21/2009 1:14:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Lets say for the sake of argument that all of Obama's close association with these known racists over the past twenty some years is flimsy evidence that he is a racist. I don't agree for a moment, because I know its damning as hell and I also know full well that were he a Republican with that kind of scandalous background there would be riots. Still, even if it were "flimsy" as you curiously insist its far more evidence than Jimmy carter has or that Mathew Norman has backing their charges of racism, isn't it. Thats a fair enough comment Sanity. I just havent seen anything Obama himself has said or done, to warrant him being labelled racist. I wouldnt call anyone Racist just because they had aquaintances that where.

Politesub53 -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/21/2009 1:56:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 The belief that people should have rights or denied rights based on their group affiliation is a typical left meme. Believing to the extent that you apparently do, as evidenced by the above quoted belief firmly places you in the "far left" part of the political spectrum in the US. Unfortunately, this is becoming more "mainstream" in the entire Democratic/left part of the American political scene, which bodes ill for the future of American freedom. Firm Okay I can accept the notion that what Americans consider "Far left" is different from other parts of the world. For myself, I am more right of centre. What I dont accept is your notion that a swing away from right wing politics bodes left for America. Europe hasnt exactly fallen apart due to left wing governments, in fact the closest support you have had over Iraq and Afghanistan has come from a left wing Labour party. I also fail to see how disagreeing with your comments about percentages makes anyone far left either.

SpinnerofTales -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/21/2009 4:14:40 AM)
quote: Lets say for the sake of argument that all of Obama's close association with these known racists over the past twenty some years is flimsy evidence that he is a racist. I don't agree for a moment, because I know its damning as hell and I also know full well that were he a Republican with that kind of scandalous background there would be riots. ORIGINAL: Sanity You mean like the famous riots that occurred when the republican party nominated a man who was elected to the state senate who was a former Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan in Louisiana? Maybe you mean the massive riots that occurred when the republican party nominated a man who was elected governor of Mississippi who had ties to the CCC, an organization that, in it's own statement of purpose, opposes such things as "the mixing of the races" and integration. I seem to have missed those riots, Sanity, just as I missed out on any huge outcry of republicans or conservatives saying a single, solitary word against them. Please, Sanity, tell us all about the horrible, rage filled riots that occurred at the elections of these men. Or maybe you can just explain how being associated with an anti-integration, anti race-mixing organization or being a high ranking member of the Ku Klux Klan isn't really racist but just something the left is twisting to cast aspersions.

Sanity -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/21/2009 8:07:01 AM)
You're really reaching, Spinner. [:)]

SpinnerofTales -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/21/2009 9:25:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity You're really reaching, Spinner. Please tell me how I am reaching. You have turned the association of Barack Obama with a couple of people who made comments you found racist into proof of his racism. You also said specificly that if a republican had a similar racist associations, there would be riots. How then are a republican official who was a grand dragon of the KKK and another who has strong associations with an unarguably racist organizaiton "reaching"? You said in so many words "I also know full well that were he a Republican with that kind of scandalous background there would be riots." So, please, by all means, tell me...tell us all: Do you think that the KKK or the CCC aren't racist organizations? Do you think that the people I mentioned don't exist or don't have proven ties with these organizations? Do you think that associations with these groups, to the point where one was a high ranking member of one of them is not scandelous? Do you think that there were riots over these associations that weren't reported anywhere by anyone? Please explain this because on the face of it, it looks like you were caught in a tremendous misstatement and just want to run from it as quickly as possible by throwing out a "this matter is not worth consideration" and heading for the hills on it.

FatDomDaddy -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/21/2009 10:43:06 AM)
Of course there is nary a peep as West Virginia continues elected to the United States senate a former Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan.... but why quibble

SpinnerofTales -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/21/2009 11:16:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy Of course there is nary a peep as West Virginia continues elected to the United States senate a former Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan.... but why quibble Thank you, FDD for helping to prove my point. You see, Sanity’s comment was that if a republican had racist associations, he was SURE there would be riots. Therefore I stuck to republican racists in my response. However, I’m more than willing to let everybody play. Sure enough we now have not two but three elected officials, representing both political parties, with ties to organizations who’s racist agenda is not only obvious but something they brag about. This has caused no riots, no mass demonstrations not even a polite conversation about why anyone who associated with the Klan or the CCC should be serving as dog catcher much less a member of a legislature of governor of a state. So I ask again. Where are these riots that Sanity promised? Where is this overwhelming acceptance of black racism and over examination of white racism that he seems to think exists? In short, what in hell is he talking about?

Sanity -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/21/2009 11:23:41 AM)
Just a minor point. [:D] quote: ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy Of course there is nary a peep as West Virginia continues elected to the United States senate a former Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan.... but why quibble

Sanity -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/21/2009 11:24:54 AM)
You're bloviating, Spinner. Obfuscating, too.

mnottertail -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/21/2009 11:31:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Just a minor point. [:D] quote: ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy Of course there is nary a peep as West Virginia continues elected to the United States senate a former Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan.... but why quibble Who would that be? Robert Byrd was a chapter Grand Cyclops and was a member of the clan for about 10 years. minor point. it got peeped alot. minor point. George Washington, the father of our country owned slaves. Black folk owned slaves. minor point, so the point is what is the point? Ron

Kirata -> RE: Matthew Norman: The insanity and enduring racism of the American right (9/21/2009 12:13:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY I’d bet my life savings that the reporting would be quite different than what happened in Kanye’s case. Well sure. In the reverse example you gave, the talking heads would perceive the behavior as aberrant! But they rather obviously don't see anything so terribly unusual about rude egocentric behavior on the part of black men. Nothing racist about it. Heh. Talk about racism! K.

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