RE: Should Male Transvestites Be Allowed To Disguise Their Birth Sex? (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Should Male Transvestites Be Allowed To Disguise Their Birth Sex?


Do you feel it is okay to disguise your birth sex?
  44% (17)
Do you feel it is not okay to disguise your birth sex?
  55% (21)


Total Votes : 38
(last vote on : 9/30/2009 5:32:56 PM)
(Poll ended: 10/2/2009 1:00:00 PM)


Message


purepleasure -> RE: Should Male Transvestites Be Allowed To Disguise Their Birth Sex? (9/28/2009 10:20:01 AM)

Ok, to address the poll directly, without taking your first post into ANY type of consideration.


Transvestites should disclose their birth gender, as with tranvestism, there is no intention of changing their birth gender.


However, in your opening post, you indicated that you intend to periodically poll for our opinions in this matter, and mentioned various subcultures in subsequent posts.  I hope you will keep in mind that many of CM's members are active members in thier local GLBT communities and are close friends of people who are undergoing gender reassignment.




MsLeslieBabydoll -> RE: Should Male Transvestites Be Allowed To Disguise Their Birth Sex? (9/28/2009 10:27:53 AM)

No, I would not necessarily say that you were very delusional at all.  I haven't seen any evidence of that yet; SAM, certainly, but delusional, nah, I wouldn't say that today




Nycteris -> RE: Should Male Transvestites Be Allowed To Disguise Their Birth Sex? (9/28/2009 10:32:35 AM)

Your knowledge, based on your comments and the poll, indicates a very simplistic view of transgender issues.   The folks here were pointing out, through the experience, that your "research" poll question was framed inaccurately.  I have great deal of experience in dealing with CD/TV/TS issues, I was trying to be helpful at first. 

Being bitchy and petty doesn't make you a woman, and wishing you were a genetic woman won't automatically make your life better/easier/more fun.




Lockit -> RE: Should Male Transvestites Be Allowed To Disguise Their Birth Sex? (9/28/2009 10:32:47 AM)

For me the key words are allowed and disguised. To allowed... I must ask who makes the rules and was there a vote taken on it? I mean... my opinion means little if there is a rule maker out there... right?  To Disguised... disguised how? I mean... some pass and some don't and well... if they don't pass, they aren't disguising anything.

So because I can't see a real scientific question here and feel that the true motive is disguised... and since I can't see that there is a rule maker... I guess we just have to accept that we are free to disguise things any way we want but other's have the freedom to take it all any way they want and respond any way they want. Hell, I disguise the rings around my eyes... doesn't mean I am all bad does it?




DesFIP -> RE: Should Male Transvestites Be Allowed To Disguise Their Birth Sex? (9/28/2009 10:35:45 AM)

This isn't research. It's you back on your favorite rant that TG people should be shunned.

It isn't a disguise. If somebody undergoes long years of therapy, hormone treatment, surgery then they aren't pretending. They really are that sex.

Why don't you go meet a young adolescent with gender dysmorphia? See how painful this is to have everyone tell you with every sentence that you're crazy. They call you by a male name when you identify as a girl. Insist you never where clothing or colors that you are drawn to. Demand you play sports you have no interest in. Call you names and beat you up.

Better yet, why don't you do this now. Go to a barber and get a crew cut. Wear only men's clothes. Join a pick up game of football or a rugby team. Discover how you don't fit in and aren't welcome.

Learn some compassion.




MsLeslieBabydoll -> RE: Should Male Transvestites Be Allowed To Disguise Their Birth Sex? (9/28/2009 10:37:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: purepleasure

Ok, to address the poll directly, without taking your first post into ANY type of consideration.


Transvestites should disclose their birth gender, as with tranvestism, there is no intention of changing their natural gender.


However, in your opening post, you indicated that you intend to periodically poll for our opinions in this matter, and mentioned various subcultures in subsequent posts.  I hope you will keep in mind that many of CM's members are active members in thier local GLBT communities and are close friends of people who are undergoing gender reassignment.


Yes, I hope to get some sort of demographic assessment out of this series of polls so that I can then try to work from the data, and attempt to learn if other websites are doing things better, or worse, than the way things are done here.  Although it is never possible to get an exact determination of a demographic's sentiment from a simple opinion poll, the information will be handy in determining the steps I take down the road.

I have been involved with the people, and issues, relating to the transgendered community, as a whole, since my college days, when I began volunteering to deliver free meals to medical patients suffering from AIDS.  There seems to be certain things that will rise up within the community, and become important, then, like with most demographics,those issues change over time.

I see a lot of opposition being displayed to even a poll on the subject I have listed above; and I wonder:  are the people who are complaining about the existence of a poll of this type, on Collar Me, simply being defensive, because they are defensive anyway, is it concerted joint efforts to stifle discussion, or what?  Even on other websites that are TG oriented, like http://urnotalone.com, of which I am a member, I don't see the kind of hell raising over questions that get addressed to the TG community at URNA, like I do here at Collar Me.  I don't know if anyone has noticed, but if I am correct, I believe that Collar Me is meant to serve the BDSM community as a whole, and not just a single subsection.  But, I could be wrong about that too; it would not surprise me if I were right, or incorrect, about that area of service that Collar Me targets.




Wolf2Bear -> RE: Should Male Transvestites Be Allowed To Disguise Their Birth Sex? (9/28/2009 10:41:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsLeslieBabydoll

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolf2Bear

I need further clarification before actually casting a vote. I need to know what what you define as a transvestite. Seems to me that in order to accurately do a survey, the participants should have a base definition to work from instead of basing our vote on a definition which is non-specified. 


Bear, the world will not stop revolving because you can't figure it out.  I guess you need to find a poll that you want to answer.  Good luck in finding that poll for you!



Bullshit....the point is we all define a transvestite differently. That is the bloody point I am attempting to get across. Frankly all polls are too effin biased towards the one creating and interpreting the results. As a researcher you should know that and as a researcher you should also realize that language and definition of terms evolve and change rapidly in this modern age. What the standard definition to TG TV, CD and the ilk is not was it was 5, 10 or even 15 years ago.I also wonder if the OP is simply trying to deliberately manipulate the data to suit her own personal agenda and biases twards members of the LGBT community?




Nycteris -> RE: Should Male Transvestites Be Allowed To Disguise Their Birth Sex? (9/28/2009 10:42:19 AM)

What is the real point here?  I think everyone is in agreement that CM's gender choices regarding the word "trans", is a bit vague.  Genetic men may list themselves as "female" for a multitude of reasons.  Lumping TG and TV's into the same category isn't going to help anyone understand the issue any better.  




Nycteris -> RE: Should Male Transvestites Be Allowed To Disguise Their Birth Sex? (9/28/2009 10:43:51 AM)

"Ilk"?  LOL, the bias unveils itself.




Wolf2Bear -> RE: Should Male Transvestites Be Allowed To Disguise Their Birth Sex? (9/28/2009 10:46:53 AM)

Your point is??????




Phoenixpower -> RE: Should Male Transvestites Be Allowed To Disguise Their Birth Sex? (9/28/2009 10:48:45 AM)

I never thought that I would find a poll where I can't be bothered to vote - well, at last I learned about myself...there are some so called polls I am not bothered about to vote...yours is one of them [:)] well done [:D]




purepleasure -> RE: Should Male Transvestites Be Allowed To Disguise Their Birth Sex? (9/28/2009 10:49:18 AM)

I'm speaking for myself here, but I believe some of the respondents to your poll feel the way I do...

Your poll is not clear and does not address a specific idea, when taken into consideration with your opening post.

If you decide to follow up periodically with further "research", you may want to include the following descriptions with what you're asking us to poll on:

Transvestite or Crossdresser - one who dresses in a manner that identifies with the gender opposite of which they were born.
Transexual - One who identifies and lives (at least part-time) as a person of the gender opposite of which they were born, they may have started hormone therapy, or not.
Transgender - One who has begun counseling and hormone replacement therapy, is living completely opposite of their birth gender, and is progressing towards or has completed gender reassignment.

Or, you may use whatever definition you desire, but make it clear about what you're asking.




Nycteris -> RE: Should Male Transvestites Be Allowed To Disguise Their Birth Sex? (9/28/2009 10:51:07 AM)

I did not create this poll or the OP.




Lockit -> RE: Should Male Transvestites Be Allowed To Disguise Their Birth Sex? (9/28/2009 10:58:08 AM)

http://www.collarchat.com/m_2819040/tm.htm

After this and now this poll... I cannot take the research here seriously. It is more trying to prove a point, started with an agenda and there are holes blown throughout the stance of the researcher's opinion on it all.

Then when the poll doesn't go well we find out that the researcher is also researching how differently CollarMe and it's visitor's compare to other sites... which wasn't covered in the research poll of this thread, therefore was disguised in my opinion.

So in summery... BULLSHIT happens.




RCdc -> RE: Should Male Transvestites Be Allowed To Disguise Their Birth Sex? (9/28/2009 10:58:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsLeslieBabydoll
Yes, I hope to get some sort of demographic assessment out of this series of polls so that I can then try to work from the data, and attempt to learn if other websites are doing things better, or worse, than the way things are done here.  Although it is never possible to get an exact determination of a demographic's sentiment from a simple opinion poll, the information will be handy in determining the steps I take down the road.

I don't know if anyone has noticed, but if I am correct, I believe that Collar Me is meant to serve the BDSM community as a whole, and not just a single subsection.  But, I could be wrong about that too; it would not surprise me if I were right, or incorrect, about that area of service that Collar Me targets.



CM on the whole has a list of orientations that are simply basic.  It's not just an issue for transgendered or CD but across the board.  If you are a bottom, you get no choice.  If you are a pet - no choice.  If you are a masochist you get no choice.  If you are a CD, you get no choice. - OTHER than what is there.  It's not resting only on a single subsection of a subsection.
I think that it would be better to see CM more as a starting point, rather than a be and end of all.  It is up to us (generic) to be responsible for ourselves and be open to communication and ask the relevant questions that we require answers to instead of relying on a site to do it all for us.

I cannot respond to your poll because I know from experience that it all depends on individuals involved and that 'should' is a word that I feel is unhelpful from a generalistic standpoint.

I would say that I personally believe that you are suffering from people coming down on the poll because of a recent influx on CM of negative or confusing posts about transgendered life and it does 'feel' like the transgendered community is being beaten by a 2x4 at the moment.

the.dark.




MsLeslieBabydoll -> RE: Should Male Transvestites Be Allowed To Disguise Their Birth Sex? (9/28/2009 11:19:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsLeslieBabydoll

Yes, I hope to get some sort of demographic assessment out of this series of polls so that I can then try to work from the data, and attempt to learn if other websites are doing things better, or worse, than the way things are done here.  Although it is never possible to get an exact determination of a demographic's sentiment from a simple opinion poll, the information will be handy in determining the steps I take down the road.

I don't know if anyone has noticed, but if I am correct, I believe that Collar Me is meant to serve the BDSM community as a whole, and not just a single subsection.  But, I could be wrong about that too; it would not surprise me if I were right, or incorrect, about that area of service that Collar Me targets.



CM on the whole has a list of orientations that are simply basic.  It's not just an issue for transgendered or CD but across the board.  If you are a bottom, you get no choice.  If you are a pet - no choice.  If you are a masochist you get no choice.  If you are a CD, you get no choice. - OTHER than what is there.  It's not resting only on a single subsection of a subsection.
I think that it would be better to see CM more as a starting point, rather than a be and end of all.  It is up to us (generic) to be responsible for ourselves and be open to communication and ask the relevant questions that we require answers to instead of relying on a site to do it all for us.

I cannot respond to your poll because I know from experience that it all depends on individuals involved and that 'should' is a word that I feel is unhelpful from a generalistic standpoint.

I would say that I personally believe that you are suffering from people coming down on the poll because of a recent influx on CM of negative or confusing posts about transgendered life and it does 'feel' like the transgendered community is being beaten by a 2x4 at the moment.

the.dark.


Wow, so many are defensive today.  I am very accustomed to people slamming me for doing research, I've only been doing it for about 25 years now.  Generally the people taking potshots will find a different issue tomorrow to bitch about.  That poll question was VERY SPECIFIC.  It addressed a VERY SMALL percentage of the general population.  I think that we could both agree that there are far more people, as a demographic, who are black, or white, or hispanic, or that are asian, than are transvestites (TV) and crossdressers (CD).  The percentage of people within the transgender community that self-identify as transgender, when they are specifically a transvestite (or crossdresser, which is the slang term for transvestite) medically, has risen dramatically in the last ten years.  Much of this has come from the advent of same-sex marriage, and a generally greater overall acceptance of transgendered people all across the United States.  Having dealt with issues relating to transgenderism since I was in college (I graduated in 1982), I think that even just 26 years is probably enough to establish that I probably know a bit more about TG people, and the TG community, than the average Jack or Jill.

I have no way of knowing if you or any other person here is a crossdresser or transvestite, because I have not seen that addressed that in many of the comments today concerning the poll.  Knowing whether or not the person making a negative post was a male transsexual would probably go a great distance in determining the specific social bias of the respondents.  I have noticed the sniping though, and if you don't want to give an opinion through the poll, that is your prerogative.  It is a voluntary thing, and no one pointed a gun at your head and forced you to open this thread.  Crossdressers and transvestites are the solid majority in the transgendered community.  More than half of the crossdressers and transvestites in the TG community, according to a study done by interns at the University of Chicago, a few years ago, referred to themselves as "transgendered"; which was up by more than 20% from the result obtained in a similar study, just ten years prior to that particular study.

The way that I phrased the question was specifically targeted at discussing a practice being used by male transvestites, or CDs, as many crossdressers categorize themselves.  This is important, because I CHOSE not to use the term transgender at all, as that also includes transsexuals.  For clarity, in today's medical community, transgendered persons are either transvestites or transsexuals.  Physicians as a whole, have not yet identified any other demographic, that is of such a number, that their definition would require revision.  This way, the reader of the question could know, with absolute certainty, that the question was asked in order to get a sense of whether or not the general membership at Collar Me, was okay with the current practice, that many CDs have adopted here at Collar Me, of disguising their birth sex.  A crossdresser might be a CD today, and a transsexual next year; but that is speculation; for we don't know if they will accept their sex differently next year.

So, in asking whether or not it is now a socially accepted practice for a male crossdresser to disguise their birth sex, the only question being asked is whether or not a specific sub-class of transgendered persons (that sub-class being crossdresers), in not representing one's actual birth sex, is something that the general membership of Collar Me, who answers the poll, is something that it is okay with, or something that is not okay with, which then might necessitate addressing the matter from the site owner's perspective; which may or may not be an additional consideration for those good folks.




LanceHughes -> RE: Should Male Transvestites Be Allowed To Disguise Their Birth Sex? (9/28/2009 11:23:47 AM)

:: SIGH :::
 
The poll questions are simply written wrong.  As an example, I would take the choice that I am NOT okay with disguising MY birth sex.  Sorry, OP, but your lack of reasearch training is TOTALLY apparent.  At the very very least, you ask no demographics of your respondents.  I'm reminded of the poll I answered for a religious right organization that was gathering votes (if you will) on the question of gay marriage.  Well, the gay community got hold of the link, passed it around, and guess what?  The poll showed something like 74% of respondents were in favor of gay marriage. LOL!

I suggest you get a web-page through yahoo, and design a proper (as in one that shows you have had some basic training in research and statistics) questionaire so that you can gather those demographics.  I suggest the first question be something along the lines of:

Q1: What is your birth sex?  A. Male B: Female C: Other (please describe) ________________________

followed by:

Q2: What outward gender were you raised as (with respect to name, clothing, toys, etc.? _________________

Questions 3 thru N parse out the varius objections and understandings of this broad category.

If you don't want to get all that detailed, I can point out a REAL easy flaw in your basic "research" question about head-counts for purposes of comparison between web-sites...... You have evidently not even considered that your respondents might belong to two different websites, both in your so called "study."

One of the BIGGEST flags for me is that you gave NO credentials and NO purpose to the study other than personal interest.

There is no indication that you have first done a SEARCH for similar studies.  That's why what you are trying to do is called REsearch. Get it?....................  I thought not.

----------------

Hey everybody..... I think that's enough help to this person who refuses what help we've given so far.  I'm done with this person who can't even use the proper pronouns to form a "research" poll.  (and to put a fine point on it, polls are VOTES - questionnaires are used for research.  If you want to restrict the respondents to a certain class, you must do so through questioning them.)

------------------

I think we should ask Bear "Bear, do you feel it is okay to disguise your birth sex?"  And regardless of your answer, did you ever disguise your birth sex?  If so, please tell us the color of the frock!  LOL!

<Lance staops laughing, walks away, shaking his head, letting out more sighs, as he fades into the distance>

-------------------------

I was typing the above while the OP was typing the post just above mine.  I wouldn't cahnge a word of mine because there's nothing to change.  I see no citations from the medical community.  I see no reference to DSM IV-TR nor the differences between it and DSM IV (which differences DO deal with - in part- the transvestites.)  I see NO reference to what's SLANG for drag-kings (a suset of CD's)  I personally know CD's that are NOT transvestites in any sense of the word, namely (some) drag queens that dress for performance purposes only.  I know of some drag queens that do what's called "gender fuck" - full beards with glitter (again for performance only)  In short, OP: You have no credentials other than what you claim is personal research; you have shown the wrong form of your reasearch by using a poll, and..... I could go on, but y'know what, I'm REAL tired of trying to talk to/help someone who won't listen.  BYE!




Lockit -> RE: Should Male Transvestites Be Allowed To Disguise Their Birth Sex? (9/28/2009 11:27:05 AM)

What is actual birth sex if they haven't gotten the full picture on it and are discovering more as research is done on how the brain works, how things are changed and there is more to it all than male and female? In ten years, I wonder what will be found in research accepted by the scientific and medical communities.




MsLeslieBabydoll -> RE: Should Male Transvestites Be Allowed To Disguise Their Birth Sex? (9/28/2009 11:31:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

http://www.collarchat.com/m_2819040/tm.htm

After this and now this poll... I cannot take the research here seriously. It is more trying to prove a point, started with an agenda and there are holes blown throughout the stance of the researcher's opinion on it all.

Then when the poll doesn't go well we find out that the researcher is also researching how differently CollarMe and it's visitor's compare to other sites... which wasn't covered in the research poll of this thread, therefore was disguised in my opinion.

So in summery... BULLSHIT happens.


Well, it's obvious that you have never done actual, legitimate research.  If you had, then you would already know that a simple opinion poll is not a scientific poll whatsoever.  Whatever your personal opinion on me is, voicing it in a post on this poll does not do very much to establish any kind of credibility for yourself, whatsoever.  It only serves to reinforce my understanding, taken from all of the other nasty comments that you have directed towards me, that you just simply don't like people from Minnesota.

So, on behalf of all the citizens of the great state of Minnesota, I am proud to simply say that I certainly do not care what you think about the poll; and at the end of the day, most of the other citizens of this state probably could give a rat's ass about your opinions as well.




Lockit -> RE: Should Male Transvestites Be Allowed To Disguise Their Birth Sex? (9/28/2009 11:40:36 AM)

Unlike you Leslie... I haven't claimed to have done research. How you switch things up, twist them and play off things is something I have an opinion on and I am allowed. You can hit hide the bad Lockit any time you like.




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