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Trust and Faith - 3/2/2006 4:07:54 PM   
slavekoko


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i am curious what trust and faith mean to both Dominants and submissives. Sometimes i have trouble being the trustworthy person i wish to be.

Also when do we stop beating our heads agains the wall? Accept that things aren't what we want and may never be?
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RE: Trust and Faith - 3/2/2006 4:26:06 PM   
MTslave


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hmmm very interesting question. Interesting in the fact that all of a sudden I realize that my trust and my faith are not at all on the same levels. I shall try to explain.

I trust my Master explicitly. I've used the example before that if I was in a burning building and my Master was at the door saying "don't move" I wouldn't move. My trust in him is endless and I have no fears when it comes to my health and safety in his hands. My trust is like water. I have to have it to survive.... I have my water in my Master....

My faith however is something a bit different. I guess my cynical views of the world in which we live in is jading my faith. My faith in myself, my faith in my Master, my faith in humaninty in general. I know that some of you will now ask... well if you trust you must have faith... or how can you not have faith if you trust so much or you must not trust as much as you think if you have no faith. But my reply is.... faith is much more spiritual to me much more on an emotional level. My mental being, my educated self knows very well that my Master is trust worthy. My heart and soul are scared to have faith.

As far as beating our heads.... hmmmm I guess when we get tired of the headache

Always
MTs slave


_____________________________

Love is everything it's cracked up to be. That's why people are so cynical about it. It really is worth fighting for, being brave for, risking everything for. And the trouble is, if you don't risk everything, you risk even more.”- Erica Jong

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RE: Trust and Faith - 3/2/2006 4:31:00 PM   
KatyLied


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I find the second part of your question interesting. The first part not so much because I am confident in the level of trust that I bring to a relationship.

But "accept that things aren't what we want and may never be." Does this lessen the value of theses things? Not necessarily. You do not know what your tomorrow is. Work on learning to value what has been placed before you today. What lessons are there in it for you? I worry about the future, on many levels. But it truly doesn't do much good.

< Message edited by KatyLied -- 3/2/2006 4:32:02 PM >


_____________________________

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- Albert Einstein

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RE: Trust and Faith - 3/2/2006 4:32:18 PM   
slavejali


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To trust someone means that I believe in that person, i believe they can be counted on in whatever form that takes given a particular situation. To have faith in someone could mean exactly the same thing.

In regards to accepting things, i like this quote:

The Serenity Prayer

God (whatever you conceive that to be), grant me the Serenity
To accept the things I cannot change...
Courage to change the things I can,
And Wisdom to know the difference.

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RE: Trust and Faith - 3/2/2006 4:39:32 PM   
redheadedfire4u


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Probably a bit flippant but my first thought is when the wall starts beating you back?

Trust and faith are basic concepts, the difficulty is how everyone interprets them differently and places there own values and priorities on the aspects of both.

Everyone has their own set of deal breakers, their own ideals on what is forgivable and what will break trust irreparably. To some a lie is a lie, to others there are white lies, little lies, untruths and whoppers. To some faith is black and white to others there is lots of grey area, to some it is a leap of faith, to others gradually earned and given?

For my 2 cents worth both trust and faith depend on communication as much as action. Unless Y/you are able to communicate Y/your values, beliefs, moral code and expectations, there will be never ending misunderstandings and head banging of walls. Unless Y/you both understand the basics about each other how do Y/you know that Y/you can trust each other, how do Y/you put Y/your faith in the unknown. There has to be something to work with to begin the process.

Just my opinion and I know it is coming out wrong lol. So please do not flame me, but enhance my understanding with Y/your words.

Warm smiles to all


< Message edited by redheadedfire4u -- 3/2/2006 4:42:23 PM >


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Driver1961's girl "wild child" and loving sister to His angel

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RE: Trust and Faith - 3/2/2006 4:54:09 PM   
slavejali


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Sorry this post was supposed to go to a different thread...ugh

< Message edited by slavejali -- 3/2/2006 4:55:36 PM >

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RE: Trust and Faith - 3/2/2006 7:53:33 PM   
Evanesce


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quote:

i am curious what trust and faith mean to both Dominants and submissives. Sometimes i have trouble being the trustworthy person i wish to be.


Trust is knowing I can share something with someone and they will not go out and share it with others. Other than that, it's really hard to define. I trust my Master not to sever a limb if He plays with knives, and I have enough faith in Him to believe He would not play with knives if He did not have the skills necessary to not sever that limb.

quote:

Also when do we stop beating our heads agains the wall? Accept that things aren't what we want and may never be?


Don't know about anyone else, but I learned that lesson in high school.


_____________________________

Denise

Give a slave what he truly needs, and he will do what you want.

"There's never a hero in a battle of ego." - Big & Rich


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RE: Trust and Faith - 3/3/2006 12:33:08 AM   
Padriag


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekoko

i am curious what trust and faith mean to both Dominants and submissives. Sometimes i have trouble being the trustworthy person i wish to be.

Speaking as a dominant, this is what those two words mean to me.

Trust = the degree to which I believe a person is reliable and/or dependable, the degree to which I believe someone will do what they say without supervision or coercion.

Faith = I think the bible says it quite well. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, but not yet seen. Faith is my belief that the things I hope for will occur, that potential will be fulfilled, especially in circumstances where there is no direct evidence of it.

In general I trust someone because they have given me reason to do so through their past behavior, they have essentially "earned" it. I may have faith in someone, however, because of what I believe they are capable of regardless of past behavior.

For example, I may trust a slave I know to serve, please and be useful because she has generally done so in the past. I may have faith in a submissive I've recently met to become a worthy slave because my assessment of her character leads me to believe she is capable of becoming such even though she may have no experience as a slave at all.

Often, however, I think most of us use these words somewhat interchangeably... but the above are precise definitions I use when necessary.


quote:

Also when do we stop beating our heads agains the wall? Accept that things aren't what we want and may never be?

When you stop having faith that the things you hope for will somehow one day have substance. When we give up that faith in the face of undeniable reality, we call it being practical. When we give up that faith because its inconvienent, we call it weakness and cowardice. When we hold on to that faith beyond reason, we either call it blindness or virtue and sometimes both.


_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: Trust and Faith - 3/3/2006 1:01:36 AM   
candystripper


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Well said, as always. Welcome back, Padriag.

candystripper

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RE: Trust and Faith - 3/3/2006 5:52:04 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Trust

Repost:

To me, trust means "I'm making a leap of faith that you will fulfill this expectation I have made of you."

That's why having realistic and mutually understood expectations are so important.


**Just tried out the new search features- I find them confusing but hopefully will larn the new parameters and make for speedier and more efficient searching.

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Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Trust and Faith - 3/3/2006 6:31:56 AM   
MHOO314


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekoko

i am curious what trust and faith mean to both Dominants and submissives. Sometimes i have trouble being the trustworthy person i wish to be.



A great question and one we recently danced with but I don't think delved deep enough--so thank you and welcome to the boards!

I think trust takes on new connotations or a deeper connotation in the lifestyle than in purely vanilla terms--trust to Me means My boy feels he can share whatever he is about, needs, wants, feels and believes that I know how to best protect and manage what he shares and what he is. But it is My responsibility to develop that bond, that connection that he feels the reality.

Faith--Faith that I would eventually find the one with all the characteristics and quirks I needed--<smiles>--faith for now is the successful integration of two lives and families for a lifetime together---and that is something we share.


quote:

Also when do we stop beating our heads agains the wall? Accept that things aren't what we want and may never be?



IMHO humans tend to strive for a place called "there"--it is some elusive place deemed to mean they have made IT--could be the perfect home, the perfect mate, the perfect whatever--the problem is--there is no such thing as "there"--and we strive so hard to get "there", we miss what's going on "here"--the present, the now--so we miss tender moments, beauty, potential loves--

So yes I think when we reach for something that does not exist, then we beat our head aganst a brickwall--and regret it only when we are at those last stages of life or at death.


< Message edited by MHOO314 -- 3/3/2006 6:32:40 AM >


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RE: Trust and Faith - 3/3/2006 6:34:52 AM   
FangsNfeet


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For some reason I've never been able to get away with "Trust me, this won't hurt a bit."
However, pet has faith that she'll always be safe with me.

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RE: Trust and Faith - 3/3/2006 6:53:09 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314
I think trust takes on new connotations or a deeper connotation in the lifestyle than in purely vanilla terms

I completely disagree with that. Trust is trust is trust. You either have it or you don't. Someone either proves you correct or not.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Trust and Faith - 3/3/2006 6:56:27 AM   
Bunkerchief


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If you don't have trust and faith in yourself, you'll find neither in another person. The fact that the other person is not to be trusted or doesn't possess faith is irrelevent to the state of ones own mind.

The fact the other person doesn't deserve your trust and faith, doesn't make that faith and trust wrong, it just proves they weren't worthy of it.

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RE: Trust and Faith - 3/3/2006 7:07:34 AM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross


quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314
I think trust takes on new connotations or a deeper connotation in the lifestyle than in purely vanilla terms

I completely disagree with that. Trust is trust is trust. You either have it or you don't. Someone either proves you correct or not.


For some it has different meaning in different scenarios (one might trust a parent or spouse differently than a boss at work, for example). For me (and it seems for MH also) it means more when that trust is applied to a D/s relationship. Obviously not everyone feels the same, as we have seen in various debates and discussions, in several threads on this forum. Those who think as i do have been targets of criticism for having a different perspective. i lost track of how many times i have seen "elitism" associated wtih my views. i have decided to take that as a compliment now (that is not aimed at you, LA. that was a general statement).

Anyway, i don't mean to hijack the thread for this, nor do i plan on entering "that" discussion again, only to say i hope we are less critical of each other's views next time. Again LA that is not aimed at you; i'm just using your comments as the impetus for my own.

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RE: Trust and Faith - 3/3/2006 8:35:44 AM   
amayos


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekoko



i am curious what trust and faith mean to both Dominants and submissives. Sometimes i have trouble being the trustworthy person i wish to be.


Trust is something I particularly focus upon in a prospective submissive; if it cannot be formed, your relations are essentially degenerating and all things shared tend to end up being meaningless. By the very nature of our way of contact on internet boards such as these, there is a monumental level of trust and faith required. Many see the long-distance disconnect often inherent in the world of cyber and voice as a hindrance, but I feel it can be a useful filter of sorts. The judgmental, prudish, insincere and mistrustful quickly reveal themselves in depthful sharing. Whether or not such traits are worth undoing in a person depends on the person and situation.




quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekoko
Also when do we stop beating our heads agains the wall? Accept that things aren't what we want and may never be?


When a prospective has betrayed my trust or misrepresents herself in any way, the relations are over. Period. Those who are already mine know the value of honesty, transparency and loyalty—and the grave methods of correction for failing in these qualities. I generally don't waste my time with those who do not display this potential. It pays to be cautious and 'picky' about prospective slaves, but one of the fastest tracks to gaining my acceptance or serious interest is proving that you trust and are in turn, trustworthy.

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RE: Trust and Faith - 3/3/2006 10:49:59 AM   
champagnewishes


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My simplistic definitions in terms that work for me:

Trust is the confident knowledge i place in someone other than myself that given similiar circumstance, would handle any situation in a manner similiar, if not better than myself based on their belief.

Belief is the confident knowledge i have in myself and my abilities.

When do we stop beating our heads against a wall? When we are able to accept reality and either (a) change it or (b) live with it.

_____________________________

Nirvana cannot be described, it is only understood truly by a person who has experienced it.


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RE: Trust and Faith - 3/3/2006 11:33:00 AM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

i am curious what trust and faith mean to both Dominants and submissives. Sometimes i have trouble being the trustworthy person i wish to be.

Also when do we stop beating our heads agains the wall? Accept that things aren't what we want and may never be?


Different relationships call for different levels of trust. I need to trust my broker with my money, I need to trust my doctor with my health, I need to trust my Master with my life and most of all, I need to trust myself and my choices in the relationships which "I" form whether that's choosing a broker, a doctor or a Master. I don't believe that strictly D/s relationships need more trust than vanilla relationships, but I do believe that S/m relationship need to have higher trust levels simply because of the physical aspects of S/m. I don't need to trust that a vanilla is going to know how to use a bullwhip because s/he's not going to pick one up and use it on me.

As for beating your head against the wall, one of two things are going to happen. You're going to break your wall or you're going to get a headache, but you will not move that wall no matter how much you beat your head against it. When you want the pain to stop, you'll quit beating your head against the wall.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: Trust and Faith - 3/3/2006 12:11:35 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekoko

i am curious what trust and faith mean to both Dominants and submissives. Sometimes i have trouble being the trustworthy person i wish to be.

Also when do we stop beating our heads agains the wall? Accept that things aren't what we want and may never be?


Trust and Faith are two very different ideals to myself but very related.

Trust to me is the confidence and/or assured reliance that I have in the character and/or ability of a person. My trust for me is based on past experiences of the individual as well my own past experiences and my perception/judgement of those experiences. Trust for me will and does vary from relationship to relationship and even within a given relationship. For Trust is not all encompassing of all character and/or abilities of a person. IE, I trust my girl's intergity, but I do not trust their ability to cane, flog or paddle a person. They may increase the skill they have in using these toys and those improve their and my confidence in there skill. This increased confidence would increase my trust. But, likewise, they could loose trust in intergity by taking on actions the devalue this character, such as manipulation and/or lying. The building or destorying of trust is all based on actual experiences that can be directly or indirectly witnessed.

Faith is when I go beyond actual experiences to base my judgements and confidence in a the character and/or ability of a person. IE, Kyra and I connected in an online environment. Intially had absolutely no experiences with kyra that dictated anything she said to me was true. We both present ourselves in a certain way, which could of been nothing but lies. All the experiences we shared with each other intially could not be verfied or based on anything except words on a screen. We both took the belief, a cautious belief that what was being said was true and valid. As we began to grow and have actually experiences together, our beliefs in each other began to evolve into trust! I also think that we always hold onto certain beliefs of our loved ones, that there is always things that we believe in them that is beyond that which we actually have experienced with them. most often thou, we actually indentify these things as trust. When I look at my relationship with kyra, I realize that I actually have "Faith" that kyra will complete all that is required to immigrate to Canada. I also realize that kyra must have "Faith" that I will be in her life for the rest of her life, that her "leap of Faith" will be rewarded. We keep building experiences in each other that build confidence and reliance in each other. builds our trust so that we can take leaps of faith into the unknowns of our relationship and lives.

Trust is not just trust to me... it's steps towards Leaps of "Faith"

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: Trust and Faith - 3/3/2006 6:33:48 PM   
subtoFemDommes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekoko
i am curious what trust and faith mean to both Dominants and submissives. Sometimes i have trouble being the trustworthy person i wish to be.


In order for me to trust in the truest sense (within an intimate relationship or otherwise) i have to hear a rational expression of heartfelt ethics, not just towards myself, but in opinions and experiences confided with me regarding others. I've always been amazed at the human propensity to share devious behavior as if in doing so, one is establishing a bond with the party to whom it's being disclosed.

How someone tells me they regard others is a start; after all, they know others better than they know me at the beginning of our relationship. Then there's consistency: Watch what humans do, not what they say. It really doesn't matter if it's a D/s relationship or otherwise, that rule is one to live by. When a history of the doing and the saying begin to add up, then, and only then, is trust warranted.

So what do I additionally look for in a Dominant? (Nothing anymore, Thank You; i've found it ) OK; what did I look for? Intelligence; i can't trust you if i don't think you understand certain things; i may trust ethics, but i can't trust judgment, which when you're chained and gagged, is not something you want to realize isn't there in abundance!

Empathy and observation; do i have a sense that there is a need for a true connection with me, a sense of me as a whole person and the ability to observe my reactions accurately? Do i feel the connection, the deepening closeness that experience with me brings, the true need to "feel my pain" and my pleasures?

And here's a big one: Do i feel They trust me? Because if not, then i don't know how fear, guilt, anxiety, may cause them to react, or reject. Let me repeat my mantra: "The Dominant is every bit (and in some cases more) as vulnerable as the submissive!"

So the trust i sought in a Dominant is both the trust i'd seek in anyone with whom i'd cast my fortunes, but it will always be unique in the sense that i know i will inspire Her, She will inspire me and W/we will share things together that are unique to U/us; no one else will ever know all that is shared ... but it feels like they could read by the glow.



quote:

Also when do we stop beating our heads against the wall? Accept that things aren't what we want and may never be?


i agree with Mistress; if we buy into "there," the target of happiness achieved when the checklist is completed, happiness will make sure to stay a moving target, a mirage just out of reach, shifting positions with each desperate leap in it's direction.

Sadly, we live in a society that makes materialism a religion; and in order to sustain that worship, tells us that that the perfection of our souls, our very right to be loved, is obtainable only if we buy this year's new, improved model. If you listen to the message of modern advertising, it's essentially "You'd be more loveable if you drove this car, wore these clothes, looked this way..." and i believe that has infiltrated our consciousness in a way that can alienate one from our essential being, into a commodity of some sort, a goal to be reached, a product to be obtained, whether that product is the "perfection" of ourselves or the perfect "someone."

In the words of Morrie Schwartz "The culture we have does not make people feel good about themselves and you have to be strong enough to say if it doesn't work don't buy it." ("Tuesdays With Morrie" - Mitch Albom)

Happiness is here, it's an attitude, not a destination. Stop ... listen ... breathe and feel your own sweet love, the thing that distinguishes your existence, your most powerful gift to give, as it fills you, right here, right now.

That wall you've been hitting your head against ... now it's become the mirage, and you can run .... right through it!


< Message edited by subtoFemDommes -- 3/3/2006 6:56:12 PM >

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