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RE: Trust and Faith - 3/3/2006 8:04:32 PM   
maybemaybenot


Posts: 2817
Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekoko


Also when do we stop beating our heads agains the wall? Accept that things aren't what we want and may never be?



quoting Scott Peck:

" Life is difficult.
This is a great truth, one of the greatest truths. It is a great truth because once we trully see this truth, we transcend it. Once we know life is difficult - once we truly understand and accept it- then life is no longer difficult. Becuase once it is accepted, the fact that life is difficult no longer matters. "

Great book by Peck that tackles such questions as yours and offers some insightful thoughts.... The Road Less Traveled. The book kinda co incides with the Serenity Prayer slavejali quoted. It's like a " how to " on acheiving the serenity.

mbmbn

_____________________________

Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

(in reply to slavekoko)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/4/2006 9:41:57 AM   
Submotive


Posts: 440
Joined: 9/9/2005
Status: offline 		Very excellent post and thought provoking topic. As i move into my relatioship with Master i see myself - my fears, anxiety, hopes, wants, needs. i see that although i understand things in my mind, i am so subject to all i have been indoctrinated with.

Moving past what i've learned and into what i want takes tremendous faith. Revealing myself to another takes incredible trust that He will continue to embrace, not just those aspects of me that please Him, but those that don't. That He will guide me and lead me in becoming more of who i am and that He will trust in me to bring out in Him all He is, trusting in me to love Him and worship Him because He is Him.

Sharing, revealing, growing - all take trust and faith

_____________________________

Owned by Scotch Master

i would rather continue alone than be permitted to show only parts of myself to my Beloved.

If you're not living as you would like to today, when are you going to start?

(in reply to slavekoko)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/4/2006 11:32:14 AM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

I think trust takes on new connotations or a deeper connotation in the lifestyle than in purely vanilla terms--



May I ask why and how? I am not trying to be argumentative; I just don't understand why people think that because I am in a M/s relationship that I trust my Lord more than if our relationship was a conventional one.

Knight's kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to MHOO314)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/4/2006 11:47:08 AM   
HoosierScorpio


Posts: 164
Status: offline 		I think the trust has to be there for you and the person you are interest in. to allow them to place your life in their hands. You can not throw that out the window for you will put yourself in a dangers situation. So that is one things you can not accept any thing less from the person. The faith is one day you will find the right person you are looking for. It is not easy but it you got to keep going for what you want. Hang in there the struggles you are going through is worth it in the end.

(in reply to slavekoko)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/4/2006 9:20:30 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		kyra, i would like to attempt to answer this, from my point of view. my Master owns the very essence of me. No one in any previous vanilla relationship had such power, control, and influence over me. Because of that, my Master has the ability to absolutely destroy me if he wishes. my entire being is in his hands. In vanilla relationships, i always maintained control of myself (or at least tried to), so i could trust up to a point, but if they turned and walked out i would be hurt but i would still be standing. If my Master were to turn and walk out, i would crumble and have to completely rebuild. So i have to trust him more, that he won't do that.

Also because he owns everything about me and controls who and what i am, he has the power to lead me to very destructive places, where no vanilla can lead because i wouldn't follow. So i have to trust my Master even more because i have completely let go and given over.

my trust in my Master MUST be more than in any vanilla because of our dynamic. i know what it is to lose a vanilla relationship. i lost a vanilla relationship of 20 years. i can attest that for myself, the trust i have placed in my 2 year bond with my Master is deeper and more relevant than any i placed in that 20 year relationship, because so much more is at stake.

(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/4/2006 11:21:43 PM   
slave4Darby3d


Posts: 106
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline 		Great question...

Trust for me is an ease and knowing that I am safe in all regards and that promises made will be kept. I don't have to worry.

Faith for me is different than for most, I think. Mine is not religious at all. I have faith in myself. I have faith in the people I trust. With regards to Master - I have faith in him as a man, a complete man. He is the epitome of my ideal man. He sets out do accomplish something - I have faith that he will. I believe in him. So, for me, faith is believing in the power of the individuals I care about to accomplish what they care about.

Hope that is not to circuitous for you...

Your results may vary...

(in reply to slavekoko)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/5/2006 6:47:16 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

kyra, i would like to attempt to answer this, from my point of view. my Master owns the very essence of me. No one in any previous vanilla relationship had such power, control, and influence over me. Because of that, my Master has the ability to absolutely destroy me if he wishes. my entire being is in his hands. In vanilla relationships, i always maintained control of myself (or at least tried to), so i could trust up to a point, but if they turned and walked out i would be hurt but i would still be standing. If my Master were to turn and walk out, i would crumble and have to completely rebuild. So i have to trust him more, that he won't do that.

Also because he owns everything about me and controls who and what i am, he has the power to lead me to very destructive places, where no vanilla can lead because i wouldn't follow. So i have to trust my Master even more because i have completely let go and given over.

my trust in my Master MUST be more than in any vanilla because of our dynamic. i know what it is to lose a vanilla relationship. i lost a vanilla relationship of 20 years. i can attest that for myself, the trust i have placed in my 2 year bond with my Master is deeper and more relevant than any i placed in that 20 year relationship, because so much more is at stake.


My question in regards to this, is it the relationship (M/s) structure that makes you trust him so much or is it the person that you trust? Would you trust him less if your relationship was not set up in this structure?

Knight's kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/5/2006 7:02:42 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists



My question in regards to this, is it the relationship (M/s) structure that makes you trust him so much or is it the person that you trust? Would you trust him less if your relationship was not set up in this structure?

Knight's kyra


It is because of the M/s structure. There would not be a need to trust him with my very essence if we were not in this structure. IF we were a vanilla relationship, i would trust him as much as i felt were possible, but that "possible" would be much less than the "possible" i now know. In a vanilla setting he wouldn't have me bent backwards over his knee with a bowie knife at my juggular. In a vanilla setting he would not likely know the deep, dark nasty desires in me that never ever felt safe to bring to light, because we would never have gone there. In a vanilla setting he would not be managing my life the way he does now; i would be managing it. He would not know me as well as he does now and i wouldn't be as vulnerable to him as i am now. So, in a vanilla setting, i would THINK i trusted him as much as it was possible to trust, because that is how far the boundaries in my mind would be able to see. In a Master/slave structure, we explore so much more deeply into me with so much at stake should he lead me in the wrong direction.

So, the answer to your question is yes, i would trust him less than i do now, because i would not know this kind of trust existed.

(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/6/2006 4:44:25 AM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		Thank you for answering. Just to make sure I heard what you said... my understanding is that for you the amount of trust you give a person is more dependent on the structure of the relationship than on the person. If I have misunderstood, can you let me know where I went wrong?

kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/6/2006 7:31:54 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		kyra you are making my head spin. LOL.

It has to do with both. After all, i don't NEED to trust a casual acquaintance like i would my best friend. i don't NEED to trust someone who doesn't own me more than i need to trust someone who does. And so on.

That being said, some people are more trustworthy than others; some are less. i may have two very close friends, but i can trust one of them with more intimate information about myself than the other, because of who that friend is. They are both still close, and they both may know different things about me, depending on levels of trust with each.

It is not a one dimensional black & white check list of who i trust and why. Different factors come into play. you are asking a black & white question where it is more subjective than that.

So, with regards to my Master, i trust him as i do because of the man he is, inside the M/s structure. If he were a man i knew in a vanilla relationship, i would see how trustworthy he is, but i would not have a reason to trust him with the direction of my life.

i hope that helps.

(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/6/2006 7:45:56 AM   
ExistentialSteel


Posts: 676
Joined: 1/18/2005
Status: offline 		Ownedgirlie presented poignant posts that cut to the heart of our relationships as surely as that knife her Dom held against her could have. However, I don’t waste time on the question if it is the M/s relationship that makes it stronger or the personalities. My thoughts turn to why does it have to be one or the other? The two are intertwined as much as the original posts are on CM.

It does happen as Ownedgirlie described so well. It goes to a depth where fact and fiction combine creating a nebulous picture like looking at something deep under water. What primarily captivates someone so deeply is a mix of so many things that I won’t even start. I just know it happens.


_____________________________

For those who are like Roman Candles leaving bright trails in the night sky while the crowd watches until the dark blue center light bursts into magnificent colors and the crowd goes, ahhhhhhhhhh.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/6/2006 7:50:19 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel

My thoughts turn to why does it have to be one or the other? The two are intertwined as much as the original posts are on CM.





Thank you for your words about what i have posted. i assume "one or the other" which you mentioned, is about faith and/or trust? Great point. i believe they are intertwined, also.

(in reply to ExistentialSteel)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/6/2006 8:29:42 AM   
orfunboi


Posts: 1223
Joined: 10/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekoko

i am curious what trust and faith mean to both Dominants and submissives. Sometimes i have trouble being the trustworthy person i wish to be.


i'm not sure, i am having a hard time trusting anything right now.

quote:


Also when do we stop beating our heads agains the wall? Accept that things aren't what we want and may never be?

When we get tired of hurting...

(in reply to slavekoko)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/6/2006 8:40:50 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Looking at this thread for a couple of days now and decided not to write a book about the subject... However, Assume I have a kajira in my Personal Collar and for he to be there she has to be exceptional. The following is true:

Faith, Trust & Hope


  • I have Faith in your abilities, in your desire to serve and willingness to learn.
  • I Trust you to be honest with me.
  • I hope that:
  • You have Faith in me.
  • You Trust me to care for and protect you.




_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to orfunboi)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/6/2006 3:42:04 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel
Ownedgirlie presented poignant posts that cut to the heart of our relationships as surely as that knife her Dom held against her could have. However, I don’t waste time on the question if it is the M/s relationship that makes it stronger or the personalities. My thoughts turn to why does it have to be one or the other? The two are intertwined as much as the original posts are on CM.

It does happen as Ownedgirlie described so well. It goes to a depth where fact and fiction combine creating a nebulous picture like looking at something deep under water. What primarily captivates someone so deeply is a mix of so many things that I won’t even start. I just know it happens.


ES,

Who is the “our” that you are referring to? I don’t see how our = lifestyle because her explanation does not come anywhere close to my own experience or the experience of many people/couples I know. For one, authority structure in intimate relationships is not unique to the lifestyle. Within my own family there are many couples that have an authority structure and some where one person has complete authority over the other and they consider themselves conventional relationships or vanilla. So I do not see how the authority structure in lifestyle relationships translates into more trust than conventional ones.

As for the knife to the throat, it is an activity with a degree of risk to it that requires trust in a very specific context. I would trust several people to hold a knife to my throat and 99% of them are not in the lifestyle. For me it is a question of three things: morality (will this person harm me), skill (can this person handle a knife) and recklessness (does this person seek to minimize risks). Now, when you start talking about sexual desire for this activity, I think that is more specific to the lifestyle but not the trust aspect of the activity.

Vulnerability is also not unique to the lifestyle. I have not found couples in the lifestyle to be any more vulnerable to their partners than couples I know who have conventional relationships. Ownedgirlie’s posts indicate that she is more vulnerable and gives more of herself because of the structure of the relationship. In her explanation, the cause is the relationship structure and the outcome is increased vulnerability. For me, it is just the opposite. The cause is the desire to give everything and be as vulnerable as possible and the effect is choosing a partner who cherishes that. The formal M/s structure of my relationship is just a reflection of who my Lord and I are and what we want in life. Even if he and I had not discussed the desire for an M/s relationship, the same authority structure would still exist because it is a natural expression of who we are. Take away the M/s “trappings” (for lack of a better word) in my relationship with my Lord and I would still love him as much, trust him as much, be as vulnerable, give as much and still be as obedient. Neither approach is right or wrong; it is just our own personal perspective in our relationships.

You say:
quote:

What primarily captivates someone so deeply is a mix of so many things that I won’t even start. I just know it happens.


I don’t disagree with this statement, I just have yet to hear a convincing argument at to why it is more, better, deeper for lifestyle relationships than conventional ones. Ownedgirlie spoke only of her own personal experience between conventional and lifestyle relationships and why in her individual case she trusts more in this lifestyle relationship. However her experience does not speak for lifestyle relationships as a whole and neither do mine, so I am not understanding why there is this opinion that lifestyle relationships as a whole require more trust than conventional relationships.


Knight's kyra


_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to ExistentialSteel)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/6/2006 4:18:18 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		I intentionally asked a “black and white” question for clarification on your posts to help me look at your statements from a different perspective. In two of your posts you make statements that it is the structure that causes you to trust him more but in your last post you said that you trust him as you do “because of the man he is, inside the M/s structure”. My question, does the M/s dynamic make him a different person than if it was a conventional relationship? Does his character strengths, morals, values and personality differ in an M/s structure compared to a conventional one?

I hope that you do not get the impression that I am being argumentative or picking things apart. Asking a million questions is just my way of understanding things that people say. To understand your perspective better I would like to ask a few other questions as well and if you prefer not to answer I will understand. Have you had any other formal D/s relationships and if so, how do they compare to this one as far as trust, emotional vulnerability and authority structure? I recall in another post you mentioning an abusive conventional relationship, have you had any other significant conventional relationships? Are you comparing the level of trust and emotional vulnerability of an abusive conventional relationship to that of a healthy M/s relationship? If so, I am not sure that is a comparison that has value because I would think a healthy relationship is going to have a higher level of trust and emotional vulnerability than an abusive relationship. I think that would be like comparing a rotten Red Delicious to a ripe Granny Smith. Since I have never been in an abusive relationship it is just an educated hypothesis on my part, but I have been in an unhealthy relationship and there is little value in comparing the level of trust between it and the healthy relationships that I have had.

Knight’s kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/6/2006 6:48:47 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		i am going to choose to not answer your continued questions.

i have read your posts, both to me and also your post to ES, and wonder, with statements like "i have yet to be convinced...i am intentionally asking a black and white question..." if you are not actually trying to gain understanding, rather you are looking for more things to argue. Why should i try to "convince" you of anything? It is not my goal here in this forum to convince anyone, but to share my views and opinions and to see what others also think.

In short, i simply have more trust in someone i have completely handed my life over to, than someone i have not. If others feel differently, than they feel differently. All i am comparing, as you asked, is relationships in which i have handed my life over, and relationships which i have not. And my conclusion is that i put more trust, and more is at stake, in those relationships where i have absolutely no control over my present and future.

(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/6/2006 7:12:28 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
In short, i simply have more trust in someone i have completely handed my life over to, than someone i have not. If others feel differently, than they feel differently. All i am comparing, as you asked, is relationships in which i have handed my life over, and relationships which i have not. And my conclusion is that i put more trust, and more is at stake, in those relationships where i have absolutely no control over my present and future.


But how far does that extend? When you cross the street, you trust your life to the cars passing, the people passing- that they won't go psycho or have a spasm and cause you to die.

We put our lives in mortal danger just about all the time- trusting eachother, the people who make the things we use and surround ourselves with, the people who OPERATE those things to not be psychos, to not be malicious, to not be absent-minded. People get killed by those situations everyday.

In mountain climbing you are trusting your life with your partner. Is that more trust than when you sit down to dinner with your dom?

Trust to me is not a quanitified thing. Neither is love. Perhaps I view life this way because I am poly and in no way could I limit or somehow portion out my emotions and expectations based on some "amount" or "more or less than."

Either I trust or I don't. Each situation has a separate dynamic of trust involved.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/6/2006 7:19:17 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		You are speaking of specific incidents as opposed to life as a whole. When i am crossing the street, yes i trust cars to stop at red lights so i can pass. That does NOT mean the drivers of those cars decide my career, where i live, what i eat, what i learn. They do not contain my heart and mind. THey are simply stopping at a red light.

You see it as me sitting down to dinner with my Dom (when actually i am not sitting but either kneeling or on all fours serving as his table, but that's beside the point), i see it as being in the presence of He who owns my life, and He happens to be eating at the moment.

Different perspective.

Trust is quantified for me, so we differ there. i can tell you how something effected me and would leave knowing even though you had that information, you had no influence on me whatsoever. i can tell my Master the same thing, knowing that He now knows a new trigger for me, and will use it, and it may or may not be pleasant when he does.

Trust, in my book, is not equal.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/6/2006 7:41:12 PM   
angelic


Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline 		If i might.. i'd like to ask a question here... how Mmany in a totally vanilla relationship... would experience a knife held to their throat and trust that you would live to tell the tale? if i am not mistaken that is the trust owned was speaking of... she trusts him implicitly... with her life... she trusts that although He may have a knife to her throat... she knows it is within the dynamics of M/s...

if a vanilla man were to hold a knife to my throat? i'd scream bloody murder (because that is most likely what it would be)... in the M/s context... it is completely different...

_____________________________

~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci


(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 40
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