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RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 9:50:18 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic
her complete and total devotion to her Master is clear in everything she says and does. she has complete faith and trust in him.

But that still doesn't mean he can or should be trusted in all situations- even within their relationship. She has complete faith and trust in him to use his authority within her life comptently and efficiently.

That doesn't mean he's the person you should trust when you go mountain climbing. That doesn't mean all Ds relationships have "more trust" than all vanilla relationships.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to angelic)

Post #: 61

RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 10:00:31 AM

ExistentialSteel

Posts: 676
Joined: 1/18/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel
in doing things distinctly D/s.

One point, what is "doing things distinctly Ds"? Ds isn't about actions. Knife play isn't Ds.

quote:

One in the other's domain is incongruent. Like you say, maybe we are breaking it down into small pieces in a way that bogs things down.

I think so. I simply know that "Ds relationships" are not "more trusting" than "vanilla relationships."

While a particular person may feel more trust with a single person in a specific situation- you can't translate that across the board to all people/all types of situations.

LA, if we are talking about being whipped, that is a D/s thing and one the Dom can do better than the mountain climber. If we are talking in general, sure, I'll buy your side.

_____________________________

For those who are like Roman Candles leaving bright trails in the night sky while the crowd watches until the dark blue center light bursts into magnificent colors and the crowd goes, ahhhhhhhhhh.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 62

RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 10:05:09 AM

angelic

Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic
her complete and total devotion to her Master is clear in everything she says and does. she has complete faith and trust in him.

But that still doesn't mean he can or should be trusted in all situations- even within their relationship. She has complete faith and trust in him to use his authority within her life comptently and efficiently.

That doesn't mean he's the person you should trust when you go mountain climbing. That doesn't mean all Ds relationships have "more trust" than all vanilla relationships.

LA, i disagree with you here.. respectfully. Let's take the knife incident as a for instance. In a vanilla relationship, if a spouse/lover holds a knife to a total vanilla partner, in the context of their relationship, how would that person from a totally vanilla view, see that? If they see it as anything other than a direct threat on their lives, then they are not vanilla, imo.

And i am speaking for owned here (sorry for doing that)... i believe based on what owned has consistently said, if she and her Master went mountain climbing... she would absolutely have complete faith and trust in Him... it would not waiver one iota. her trust in Him would be steadfast.

_____________________________

~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 63

RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 10:05:38 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel
LA, if we are talking about being whipped, that is a D/s thing and one the Dom can do better than the mountain climber. If we are talking in general, sure, I'll buy your side.

No, whipping is a kinky thing. I don't own anyone but I know how to use a whip pretty well. I can (and have) whip a random person I met in a dungeon 10 minutes ago. That doesn't mean we're in a Ds situation. It means they can trust me in that particular context.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to ExistentialSteel)

Post #: 64

RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 11:23:09 AM

ExistentialSteel

Posts: 676
Joined: 1/18/2005
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Why would you be in a dungeon whipping someone if it is not a D/s situation?

That is my point and all I can say is that there seems to be a firm division of the way we look at things. We disagree what a certain premise represents and there is nothing we can do to change each other’s reality. I found it interesting reading your and Kyra’s viewpoints, plus those who feel as I do. It did make me see the thinking of those with other views than my own even if I don’t agree.

_____________________________

For those who are like Roman Candles leaving bright trails in the night sky while the crowd watches until the dark blue center light bursts into magnificent colors and the crowd goes, ahhhhhhhhhh.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 65

RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 11:35:55 AM

ownedgirlie

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Why does everyone want to send me up on a rock now for some reason?! LMAO - - the difference is this. IF i were to go mountain climbing, i would go with whomever Master deems i should go with, thus trusting my MASTER and HIS judgement over all else. Yes i would trust the rock climber with me, because Master approved him to be the one to guide me. So i am still in Master's care, don't you see? In all i am and all i do, He is the ultimate authority. Just because he may place me in the hands of someone more experienced than him in a particular circumstance, does not mean he has let go of the ultimate control.

The same would be true if he loaned me out for sexual services to somebody. Would i walk into a room trusting the person about to use me as much as i trust my Master? No. But i do trust the person will not harm, hurt or mame me because my Master trusts it. But said person does not have ultimate authority and power over my life. And when i say "life" i do not limit that to mean life and death, i mean it as my thoughts, my feelings, my heart, my essence, my direction. The core that is me. That is what i mean by my life. If handed over to be used i trust my Master first, that his judgment is good, and that this person about to use me will do so only in a way my Master has approved.

Everyone here seems to be hung up on particular events, which is missing the point. i'm talking the whole tamale here. Not one part of me - in the physical, metaphysical, emotional, mental, intellectual, etc. etc. etc.....is not ultimately under his direction, watch and authority. That is how he and i are structured. Period. i do not speak for the entire D/s community just as i do not speak for womankind, or wife-kind, or women between the ages of 40 and 45-kind, or daughter-kind, or friend-kind...etc...you get the idea.

i know it is difficult for people to understand what they do not relate to. i understand and respect that. kyra thinks i am being defensive. i have nothing to defend to anyone, so she is wrong. i am simply....me. my Master's slave. And all of what i have described is part of who i am. i have no reason to be defensive toward anyone on a message board who doesn't "get" what i am saying. If i choose what i posts wish to participate in, do not confuse that with being defensive or upset. It is simply exercising my freedom of choice in a message board.

Angelic: Thank you for your words. This morning in fact i copy/pasted the thread to my Master for him to read if he so wishes. i spoke to him briefly of this last night and he felt my sentiment was right on track. you are right - my feelings about him and who i am do not waiver. And knowing exactly how he feels about me, my foundation with him is ever strong.

~ adds 10 to angelic's 10 ~

(in reply to angelic)

Post #: 66

RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 11:41:16 AM

angelic

Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Why does everyone want to send me up on a rock now for some reason?! LMAO - - the difference is this. IF i were to go mountain climbing, i would go with whomever Master deems i should go with, thus trusting my MASTER and HIS judgement over all else. Yes i would trust the rock climber with me, because Master approved him to be the one to guide me. So i am still in Master's care, don't you see? In all i am and all i do, He is the ultimate authority. Just because he may place me in the hands of someone more experienced than him in a particular circumstance, does not mean he has let go of the ultimate control.

The same would be true if he loaned me out for sexual services to somebody. Would i walk into a room trusting the person about to use me as much as i trust my Master? No. But i do trust the person will not harm, hurt or mame me because my Master trusts it. But said person does not have ultimate authority and power over my life. And when i say "life" i do not limit that to mean life and death, i mean it as my thoughts, my feelings, my heart, my essence, my direction. The core that is me. That is what i mean by my life. If handed over to be used i trust my Master first, that his judgment is good, and that this person about to use me will do so only in a way my Master has approved.

Everyone here seems to be hung up on particular events, which is missing the point. i'm talking the whole tamale here. Not one part of me - in the physical, metaphysical, emotional, mental, intellectual, etc. etc. etc.....is not ultimately under his direction, watch and authority. That is how he and i are structured. Period. i do not speak for the entire D/s community just as i do not speak for womankind, or wife-kind, or women between the ages of 40 and 45-kind, or daughter-kind, or friend-kind...etc...you get the idea.

i know it is difficult for people to understand what they do not relate to. i understand and respect that. kyra thinks i am being defensive. i have nothing to defend to anyone, so she is wrong. i am simply....me. my Master's slave. And all of what i have described is part of who i am. i have no reason to be defensive toward anyone on a message board who doesn't "get" what i am saying. If i choose what i posts wish to participate in, do not confuse that with being defensive or upset. It is simply exercising my freedom of choice in a message board.

Angelic: Thank you for your words. This morning in fact i copy/pasted the thread to my Master for him to read if he so wishes. i spoke to him briefly of this last night and he felt my sentiment was right on track. you are right - my feelings about him and who i am do not waiver. And knowing exactly how he feels about me, my foundation with him is ever strong.

~ adds 10 to angelic's 10 ~

lol hon.. no you added about $1.50...

... you were as you always were... intelligent, compassionate... and did not waiver.

_____________________________

~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 67

RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 12:10:56 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic
Let's take the knife incident as a for instance. In a vanilla relationship, if a spouse/lover holds a knife to a total vanilla partner, in the context of their relationship, how would that person from a totally vanilla view, see that? If they see it as anything other than a direct threat on their lives, then they are not vanilla, imo.

Depends on the relationship. My relationship with all of my partners IS a vanilla relationship- none of us are in submission to the other, none of us have expectations of obedience to authority.

Yet we do kinky play and risky vanilla play all the time.

I know friends who do stapling in scenes a lot. They are best life friends- not a single iota of Ds relationship between them.

To switch it around- you take a vanilla mountain climber and she has to choose between a heart surgeon who is a dominant or an experienced vanilla mountain climber as her partner- which is the best choice?

Kinky play does NOT equal Ds NOR does it imply MORE trust overall than other RISKY activities which vanillas do all the time.

quote:

And i am speaking for owned here (sorry for doing that)... i believe based on what owned has consistently said, if she and her Master went mountain climbing... she would absolutely have complete faith and trust in Him... it would not waiver one iota. her trust in Him would be steadfast.

Only because the master ALSO went mountain climbing.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to angelic)

Post #: 68

RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 12:12:11 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel
Why would you be in a dungeon whipping someone if it is not a D/s situation?

Cuz you are friends? Because you have a vanilla relationship that's also kinky? Because they thought you were cute and bought you in an auction?

Some people can and LOVE to play with people that they aren't in a Ds situation with. In fact, LOTS of people do.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to ExistentialSteel)

Post #: 69

RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 12:15:43 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
i know it is difficult for people to understand what they do not relate to.

And what makes you think it's not YOU who has the difficulty relating?

quote:

This morning in fact i copy/pasted the thread to my Master for him to read if he so wishes. i spoke to him briefly of this last night and he felt my sentiment was right on track. you are right - my feelings about him and who i am do not waiver. And knowing exactly how he feels about me, my foundation with him is ever strong.

~ adds 10 to angelic's 10 ~

My point remains- you trust your master within the context and capacity to which he has proven and to which you have faith IN that trust.

That does NOT mean that:

A) All Ds relationships involve more trust than all vanilla relationships
B) That all dominants should be trusted in all situations more than a vanilla person or a submissive

Trust is contextual. I completely understand that you would lay your life down for your master, that you have no doubt in the abilities and intelligence that he has shown you.

That doesn't mean you have "more trust" in him than a vanilla person has in someone else (for example, I don't think you have "more trust" in your master than I have in my local partner, but we are vanilla together).

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 70

RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 12:24:36 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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i did not exclude myself with my relating comment. HOWEVER...i am not the one questioning and picking at the way of thinking which is different than my own. So, i'm really having no difficulty at all. i understand where the other view points are coming from. i do not need to spend 4 pages of a thread questioning it.

LA all due respect but i have spent the last few pages saying exactly what you said here. i have spoken in the context of my Master and i only, and have said quite clearly that i do not speak for the common masses. Has this been missed somehow? i do not speak for all Dominants either. Post after post i have referred to how it is for me, and me only. i am not sure why this continues to be brought up as it is irrelevant.

Again, i did not compare my level of trust with anyone else's. i am starting to wonder if i am the only one seeing my posts. i have more trust in him than i would in a vanilla relationship. Nowhere in that sentence do i mention anyone else, or anyone else's circumstance.

If people continue to argue that i am comparing to others, i have nothing further to add to my reply. Help yourselves but you are arguing a point that does not exist.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 71

RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 12:27:10 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
HOWEVER...i am not the one questioning and picking at the way of thinking which is different than my own. So, i'm really having no difficulty at all. i understand where the other view points are coming from. i do not need to spend 4 pages of a thread questioning it.

Then you shouldn't question others lack of understanding just because they are bringing up other examples and questions.

This is the essence of intellectual discourse.

If we're agreeing with eachother (which you say here that you are so I'll take that) then I agree, nothing more to be said.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 72

RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 12:35:04 PM

Veryleggyredhead

Posts: 27
Joined: 2/5/2006
From: Tampa
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekoko

i am curious what trust and faith mean to both Dominants and submissives. Sometimes i have trouble being the trustworthy person i wish to be.

Also when do we stop beating our heads agains the wall? Accept that things aren't what we want and may never be?

[

Both trust and faith are subject to individual interpetation. Our life experiences define how we perceive both of them. A lifestyle relationship is one that requires a far greater level of trust and faith than that typically seen in a vanilla relationship. This is also, from a submissive's point of view, about transparency. Is part and parcel of the commitment we make to our Dominant/Master when we offer our submission. In order to be truly transparent, we have to be completely honest. Honesty heightens trust, smiles. Faith from my perspective, is choosing to believe in both my Dominant/Master, and myself, and our journey within our lifestyle relationship. When do we quit engaging in that dance with that wall? Happens when we come to the realization that the only person's actions in the world we can dicate and are responsible for, are our own.

(in reply to slavekoko)

Post #: 73

RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 12:35:38 PM

ownedgirlie

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Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
HOWEVER...i am not the one questioning and picking at the way of thinking which is different than my own. So, i'm really having no difficulty at all. i understand where the other view points are coming from. i do not need to spend 4 pages of a thread questioning it.

Then you shouldn't question others lack of understanding just because they are bringing up other examples and questions.

This is the essence of intellectual discourse.

If we're agreeing with eachother (which you say here that you are so I'll take that) then I agree, nothing more to be said.

1. i have questioned nothing here. i made a very generic comment that people do not often understand that which they do not relate to.

2. The essence if intellectual discourse includes arguing points that were never made?

3. Ditto.

< Message edited by ownedgirlie -- 3/7/2006 12:36:58 PM >

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 74

RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 12:53:43 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel

LA, if we are talking about being whipped, that is a D/s thing and one the Dom can do better than the mountain climber. If we are talking in general, sure, I'll buy your side.

No that is a BDSM activity NOT a D/s thingy!

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to ExistentialSteel)

Post #: 75

RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 12:56:40 PM

amayos

Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

That doesn't mean you have "more trust" in him than a vanilla person has in someone else (for example, I don't think you have "more trust" in your master than I have in my local partner, but we are vanilla together).

Any possession of mine would likely answer, "It's not really a matter of trust. I am a slave. It is not my purpose or place to trust or not trust, but to simply obey."

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 76

RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 1:07:59 PM

angelic

Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

That doesn't mean you have "more trust" in him than a vanilla person has in someone else (for example, I don't think you have "more trust" in your master than I have in my local partner, but we are vanilla together).

Any possession of mine would likely answer, "It's not really a matter of trust. I am a slave. It is not my purpose or place to trust or not trust, but to simply obey."

*playing devil's advocate here*... how can one obey without trust?

_____________________________

~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci

(in reply to amayos)

Post #: 77

RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 1:11:19 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic

Any possession of mine would likely answer, "It's not really a matter of trust. I am a slave. It is not my purpose or place to trust or not trust, but to simply obey."

*playing devil's advocate here*... how can one obey without trust?

I'm not playing devil's advocate: how can one obey without trust?

While trust does not need to be the purpose, but trust is inherent in everything we do. She trusts that her perceptions are keen enough in order TO obey, she trusts that your communication will allow her to obey, she trusts that she will obey, and she trusts that you still want her to obey.

None of these are really big deals- you're talking to someone who does highly risky things with nearly perfect strangers on a regular basis. But to suggest that trust has nothing to do with it is a misstep IMO. Trust IS a part of the process.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to angelic)

Post #: 78

RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 1:21:28 PM

angelic

Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
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damnit... LA.. i didn't intend to quote you... I HATE QUOTES lol... i screw them up.

that wasn't intended for you... *sigh* let me try this again

_____________________________

~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 79

RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 1:22:38 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic

damnit... LA.. i didn't intend to quote you... I HATE QUOTES lol... i screw them up.

that wasn't intended for you... *sigh* let me try this again

Oh I know Angelic. I was using your "Devils Advocate" quote as a launchpad for my own response.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to angelic)

Post #: 80

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