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RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 4:22:50 AM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		Thank you for answering what you have.

I was very open with the fact that I did not understand why the idea is out there that lifestyle relationships require more trust than conventional ones and I very frankly asked MHOO to give me her reasons to explain that and I was not looking for individual experiences. Despite saying in a post to Lucky several days ago that you "do not plan to enter that discussion again" you chose to answer my question and entered that discussion by giving your individual experience. I in turn asked you very specific questions on what you explained and then repeated back what I heard from you and asked if that is what you meant. It is a skill called active listening and makes sure that the "listener" understands what is being said. If you wish to get defensive about that, then that is your perogative, but it is an excellent skill to posses to make sure that effective communication is taking place.

As for the post to ES, I am completely baffled on how he can take your individual experience and apply it to the lifestyle as a whole. In order to understand how he can make that leap in logic it will require a lot more explanation because as I said in my post your experience does not in any way explain or mirror my own. Neither your experience or my experience can be used as a blanket explanation for lifestyle relationships, they are just that, our experiences.


Knight's kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 4:30:37 AM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic

If i might.. i'd like to ask a question here... how Mmany in a totally vanilla relationship... would experience a knife held to their throat and trust that you would live to tell the tale? if i am not mistaken that is the trust owned was speaking of... she trusts him implicitly... with her life... she trusts that although He may have a knife to her throat... she knows it is within the dynamics of M/s...

if a vanilla man were to hold a knife to my throat? i'd scream bloody murder (because that is most likely what it would be)... in the M/s context... it is completely different...


Actually, it happens quite often. When I was in martial arts, my kickboxing or judo instructor would hold a knife (yes, a real one) at people's throat as a demonstration (during practice fake ones were used, but nothing like the real thing to get your students attention). I can think of many other conventional situations where one person "holds another's life in their hands" but has no intention to murder them. It is specific to the lifestyle.

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to angelic)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 4:44:58 AM   
CERCKL


Posts: 1039
Joined: 3/4/2006
Status: offline 		Trust is primarily experiential for me...though I can have a degree of it initially with someone or a situation, it depends what happens through time and perspective as to whether it will grow, remain or dissipate.
Faith is related, as far as experiential but in a lot of ways it is also based upon My personal belief systems, the paradigms I accept and have created and how I choose to interperet what I experience, belive etc...I had been taught that 'faith' is like a leap, I do not accept that, faith is to tightly bound to what I have learned; how could I have faith which goes against my experience? That is just illusionary, false or stupid...
As for the wall, it seems that you may hold a certain ideal or hope not realized...adaptation is important for what you seek, focus and yet recognize what surrounds you, what your actual desire or goal is for...I can hope my teen son will keep his room clean yet my experience dictates that isn't going to happen, so I can be peased when his disaster is contained to his room...Evolve, Migrate or Die.
C

_____________________________

AND I AM TOO AN ASSHOLE, I HAVE REFERENCES!!!

"Please, please, please believe me, I really am an asshole. All that Enlightenment and Higher Learning shit was all a ruse."

(in reply to slavekoko)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 5:49:58 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
You are speaking of specific incidents as opposed to life as a whole. When i am crossing the street, yes i trust cars to stop at red lights so i can pass. That does NOT mean the drivers of those cars decide my career, where i live, what i eat, what i learn. They do not contain my heart and mind. THey are simply stopping at a red light.

But containing your heart and mind has nothing to do with still having to trust them.

Life is a series of specific incidents.

You didn't list off all those "control over career, live, eat, learn." You only listed power over death in your life as some measure of trust.

Now you're being specific- that's good.
quote:


You see it as me sitting down to dinner with my Dom (when actually i am not sitting but either kneeling or on all fours serving as his table, but that's beside the point), i see it as being in the presence of He who owns my life, and He happens to be eating at the moment.

I don't care exactly how you go about it- none of that situation has anything to do with trust or lack thereof. A sub doesn't trust her dom more because he makes her kneel and eat dog food instead of sitting and eating people food, and that certainly has nothing to do with trusting them to make life decisions.

You trust your dom to have specific authority within your life. In other situations, you trust other people to have specific authority within your life as well. In fact, in many situations, people OTHER than your dom are more trained, prepared, and able to make better decisions about your life.

I don't think trust is "equal" either. But I think saying that you have more trust based on being able to live is a misstatement. Life is a pretty fragile thing and it's not a very solid base to found trust on. You've begun to go into more specifics here, and those are the things where trust is really crucial.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 5:51:45 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CERCKL
I had been taught that 'faith' is like a leap, I do not accept that, faith is to tightly bound to what I have learned; how could I have faith which goes against my experience?

But your experience is of the past.

You make a leap of faith that your past experience will hold true for the future.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to CERCKL)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 6:28:57 AM   
CERCKL


Posts: 1039
Joined: 3/4/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross


quote:

ORIGINAL: CERCKL
I had been taught that 'faith' is like a leap, I do not accept that, faith is to tightly bound to what I have learned; how could I have faith which goes against my experience?

But your experience is of the past.

You make a leap of faith that your past experience will hold true for the future.




Interesting point, thank you for making me think...but looking at experience as a recreation and interpretation of what has/is happening...my faith is an illusion either with in the 'past' or the 'present' if seen as anything besides that which I create/choose?

C

_____________________________

AND I AM TOO AN ASSHOLE, I HAVE REFERENCES!!!

"Please, please, please believe me, I really am an asshole. All that Enlightenment and Higher Learning shit was all a ruse."

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 7:10:12 AM   
ExistentialSteel


Posts: 676
Joined: 1/18/2005
Status: offline 		Kyra, I commented on Ownedgirlie’s beautiful post not so much as I would review a patent application if I were a lawyer. She used example, metaphor, simile and probably some exaggeration that let me see inside the heart of a sub who has a Master she trusts completely. I can no more tell you why a certain part of her post touched me than I can tell you why a poem touches me at times. I kept the same metaphorical style in my reply to HER.

My question to you is why do you take her exquisite description of her experience and turn it into a mechanical discussion like mechanics leaning over an open hood of a 98 Ford in a greasy garage discussing carburetors? She gave an excellent reply to the OP in her own style.

You say that her experiences or mine can’t be used as blanket explanations.
No one is trying to cover you up or for that matter trying to keep you out in the cold and not under the blanket. If you are not under the blanket, I understand that is your choice and I’m truly happy for you.

Frankly, I see little correlation between your statements that you know non D/s families that follow an authoritarian structure and feel that means they are just as strong as a D/s relationship. If someone is controlling or doing other D/s like activities to others without the framework and understanding of D/s I have to wonder about that family. The knife to the throat included.


_____________________________

For those who are like Roman Candles leaving bright trails in the night sky while the crowd watches until the dark blue center light bursts into magnificent colors and the crowd goes, ahhhhhhhhhh.

(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 7:33:52 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CERCKL
but looking at experience as a recreation and interpretation of what has/is happening

Not sure what you mean by experience as a recreation of what is happening?

quote:

.my faith is an illusion either with in the 'past' or the 'present' if seen as anything besides that which I create/choose?

C

Your faith WAS a leap- it was either proven or disproven based on what actually occured.

Your faith in anything that hasn't happened yet IS a leap.

I'm not sure what you mean by it being an illusion?



_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to CERCKL)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 7:35:26 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel
Frankly, I see little correlation between your statements that you know non D/s families that follow an authoritarian structure and feel that means they are just as strong as a D/s relationship. If someone is controlling or doing other D/s like activities to others without the framework and understanding of D/s I have to wonder about that family. The knife to the throat included.


Ds has nothing to do with activities. A slave can look and act and do exactly the same activities as a vanilla person.

Vanilla people put their lives into dangerous situations, they push themselves, they take risks- just like those of us in Ds relationships do.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to ExistentialSteel)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 7:47:16 AM   
MistressSassy66


Posts: 1675
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline 		I try to have Faith that I can Trust someone.

Trust to Me should mean I can count on a person to not do Me wrong.
Faith is something I have in Myself to know I will do the best I can in whatever situation.

Stop right now.
And either accept it,which I dont agree with doing.
OR
Change it,the better option I feel. I realize its much harder to change it than to settle.
But wont it be better in the long run?Wouldnt you be happier?
The longer you run away,the further the bus ride home.

_____________________________

Mistress Sassy

http://www.mistresssassy.com

In the Immortal Words of Bob....Fuck the dumb shit.

"I love you not only for what you are,But for what I am when I'm with you."- Opening line from a poem by Roy Croft

(in reply to slavekoko)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 8:24:54 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Yes, kyra, sometimes someone chooses to not participate and then sees something that inspires them to participate. Regardless, your pattern of dissection and questions are too close to home for me, having come from a very long and painful relationship where the answer to one question simply meant 3 more to follow and so on. The pattern in such a case is that no matter what is answered, it will neither be understood nor accepted, and instead simply argued against. And so i have chosen to participate or not participate as much as i feel like, frankly. That's the beauty of a message board, after all. i owe nobody but One person any answers. You are astute to pay such close attention to what people say and remind them of it later, however.

i am reminded of something i once told my ex husband - he could see a beautiful bird flying across the sky and yet still not believe it flies without first having to pull it from the sky and pick apart its wings....so that he understood it, of course. But when he was finished, all he was left with was a dead bird.

On the other hand, i have chosen to accept that fact that you think and see things so differently than i do. i don't need your views proven to me, or explained to death. i see that you are a unique individual and i accept it.

(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 8:27:16 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		LA the truth is that we simply put different weight on different relationships. It appears that to you, vanilla is the same as D/s. To me it is far different.

And so the world keeps turning, with all of us unique individuals and our unique (and sometimes not so unique) ideas.

i laid things out there as i see them. You misunderstood, as i was not specifically talking about trusting him ONLY with life and death. i trust him with the WHOLE package - something no one else gets.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 8:36:32 AM   
ExistentialSteel


Posts: 676
Joined: 1/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Ds has nothing to do with activities. A slave can look and act and do exactly the same activities as a vanilla person.


The second sentence is true, but what I don't believe is that a vanilla person can do the same things as someone in a D/s relationship. Can a vanilla husband whip his vanilla wife in a happy marriage? Hold a knife to her throat in an edge scene?

< Message edited by ExistentialSteel -- 3/7/2006 8:37:29 AM >

_____________________________

For those who are like Roman Candles leaving bright trails in the night sky while the crowd watches until the dark blue center light bursts into magnificent colors and the crowd goes, ahhhhhhhhhh.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 8:40:59 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		ES, Thank you for the kind way in which you referred to my post. Actually nothing in it was exaggerated, go figure, lol. i believe where we get hung up in the incessant questions is because some people view D/s solely as activities and "kinks," when my M/s relationship goes much deeper than that, touching the very spirits of the people in it. If it doesn't go so deep for others, that is their circumstance - neither wrong or right. There is nothing to judge, or pick apart, or understand. It simply is.

i enjoy seeing the different perspectives. i do tend to quirk my head, however, when someone's view is "corrected" by people who truly do not know them.

As for my trust in my Master - i trust him with my very essence. i trust nobody else with that.


(in reply to ExistentialSteel)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 8:42:25 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Ds has nothing to do with activities. A slave can look and act and do exactly the same activities as a vanilla person.


The second sentence is true, but what I don't believe is that a vanilla person can do the same things as someone in a D/s relationship. Can a vanilla husband whip his vanilla wife in a happy marriage? Hold a knife to her throat in an edge scene?


i believe he actually can, if that is their kink play. But in doing so, is it really his expression of complete power over her and her absolute surrender to him? Does she lay there knowing if he DOES push the knife in, she is okay with that because that must be what he wants? Or is it a role play scenario for the purposes of getting off?

Hmmm....

(in reply to ExistentialSteel)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 9:07:48 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel
The second sentence is true, but what I don't believe is that a vanilla person can do the same things as someone in a D/s relationship. Can a vanilla husband whip his vanilla wife in a happy marriage? Hold a knife to her throat in an edge scene?

Can a random dom be trusted in a fire like a firefighters? Can a random dom be trusted as a mountain climbing or scuba diving partner? I know most doms cannot at all be trusted in those situations while vanilla people can.

We're narrowing this down into little pieces- every person has things they can be trusted with and things they should never be trusted with. A dom is not to be more trusted because they "are my dom" but because they have shown they have the character to be able to be trusted within a specific context. Vanilla husbands have shown they have the character to be able to be trusted within a specific context- contexts in which some doms may be completely untrustworthy in. One is not more trusting than the other.



_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to ExistentialSteel)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 9:15:09 AM   
ExistentialSteel


Posts: 676
Joined: 1/18/2005
Status: offline 		LA, I agree with that. The mountain climbing expert can be trusted more than the Dom in that context. However, the Dom can be trusted more than the vanilla guy in doing things distinctly D/s. One in the other's domain is incongruent. Like you say, maybe we are breaking it down into small pieces in a way that bogs things down.

_____________________________

For those who are like Roman Candles leaving bright trails in the night sky while the crowd watches until the dark blue center light bursts into magnificent colors and the crowd goes, ahhhhhhhhhh.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 9:41:39 AM   
angelic


Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline 		as true likes to say (sorry true phalgarizing(sp?) for just a sec

'i'm throwing my 2 cents worth in"

owned imo is one of the rare ones... her complete and total devotion to her Master is clear in everything she says and does. she has complete faith and trust in him. i have never seen her waiver from that. Having said that and as a disclaimer from the risk of being flamed LOL (i hate when i have to put in disclaimers)... i am not saying others don't have that same trust and faith. All it means is that i have not seen it as clearly as i do hers. i may not understand her complete and total devotion to him... but i most certainly respect it. i think if He were to come on this board and see how well she represents Him... He would be more than proud

(ok maybe it was 10 cents instead of 2)

_____________________________

~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci


(in reply to ExistentialSteel)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 9:47:53 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel
in doing things distinctly D/s.

One point, what is "doing things distinctly Ds"? Ds isn't about actions. Knife play isn't Ds.

quote:

One in the other's domain is incongruent. Like you say, maybe we are breaking it down into small pieces in a way that bogs things down.
I think so. I simply know that "Ds relationships" are not "more trusting" than "vanilla relationships."

While a particular person may feel more trust with a single person in a specific situation- you can't translate that across the board to all people/all types of situations.


_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to ExistentialSteel)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Trust and Faith - 3/7/2006 9:47:56 AM   
angelic


Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline 		*sigh* ok i noticed that my 10 cents appeared as a response to ExistentialSteel...

it wasn't intended that way... man oh man i can't figure this quoting/not quoting thing out!

_____________________________

~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci


(in reply to angelic)
Profile   Post #: 60
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