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RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 6:31:50 AM   
GraciousLady


Posts: 529
Joined: 7/7/2009
Status: offline 		I don't prefer a sub that needs punishment to behave. That bratty attitude is not for me. Instead, my attention to the things they like is the motivation to behave. Basicly, if they don't act right they don't get me.

(in reply to DavanKael)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 6:41:00 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Now that my power is back on, allow me to add. All of the things that people normally would use punishment for around here have been from miscommunication. He wasn't clear or I didn't understand, usually both. In 8 years there has never been a situation where he was clear, I understood, and refused for no reason. Not one.

If he punished me and I still didn't understand, it wouldn't matter how much he punished me, it wouldn't help. At this point he doesn't even make a fuss about stuff. He just explains what he wanted, and then I tell him what I understood him to say, and then we go over it again so I do understand. And frequently he admits it was his fault for being unclear.

_____________________________

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Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to GraciousLady)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 7:40:00 AM   
lucylucy


Posts: 612
Joined: 3/1/2009
Status: offline 		My boyfriend punishes me very occasionally for behavior that is basically about lack of self-discipline. Things I can do if I try hard but I don’t try hard enough. It’s never for anything “trumped up.”

The usual way he punishes me is to either not allow me to masturbate or not allow me to orgasm. He also does these things for play, but it’s not confusing at all when it’s for punishment. When I know it’s for punishment, it feels much different to me.

For me, this totally works. Once the punishment is over, the slate is wiped clean, so to speak. There’s no lingering blame from him or guilt from me. (Much like what agirl said.)


_____________________________

“There are those who give with joy, & that joy is their reward.” Gibran / "Those who are willing to be vulnerable move among mysteries." Roethke / "Let the beauty we love be what we do. There are hundreds of ways to kneel & kiss the ground." Rumi

(in reply to ncbabe)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 8:13:09 AM   
sweetobedience1


Posts: 25
Joined: 9/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elipsis

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetobedience1
Physical or emotional (real) punishment truly upsets me and actually makes me a better person


Could you explain this in more detail to me?  What exactly would you consider "physical or emotional (real) punishment" since it isn't the things that you described below as play?



I meant real punishment versus the "phunishment." The things that qualify as such to me are very hard spankings that make me cry, humiliation, and my Dom calling me a failure, etc. and saying he is going to leave me. I do like light pain but not pain that makes me cry, so it is punishment for me when he did that and modified my behavior. The humiliation aspect for me, previously, was saying those things in public. It wasn't play. He was serious when he called me degrading names in front of everyone at restaurants, etc.

That worked for me, and it's what I'm looking for in a relationship. Just like a lot of children will change to not get spanked, I will, too. Feel free to ask me for more clarification :)

(in reply to Elipsis)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 8:15:59 AM   
sweetobedience1


Posts: 25
Joined: 9/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule



Corporal punishment works as a behavior modifier for me because I am not a masochist. I slip up sometimes. When I slip up I get whipped with a belt. The tasks he gives me aren't always for his benefit some of them are for me only, like a keeping consistent bedtime . I'm also a big procrastinator can be lazy and get stuck on negative thinking. These traits are hard to overcome without a kick in the ass (no pun intended)

I try harder to do the things he asks me because I don't really "like" I physical feeling of the belt hitting my flesh. I only like the fact that he is punishing me becasue I deserve it and becasue I want to improve. He HAS to tie me down when he belt-whips me. If he doesn't I WILL try to escape. My fight or flight reaction is that strong. It makes bondage more meaningful to us knowing that without it I would be running all over the house trying to get away from him. My mind my heart and my soul want him to whip me but my body just can't stand it. But i love it.

I'm sure most would hate this dynamic but it works for us. he likes a little fight and I do what I must to please him because I love him AND fear the belt. It works that way in our Daddy girl play too. Its almost consensual domestic violence. Does that make us 50s household? I don't know. All I know is I have never been happier.


quote:



Precisely how I feel.

(in reply to Hierodule)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 8:18:18 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		ok, punishment dynamics.

you (slave) fucks up.
I (master) punch you dead in the goddam face.
you (slave) don't fuck up like that no more, you don't like to be punched dead in the goddam face.

it is a living, breathing thing.

Ron



_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to sweetobedience1)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 8:28:25 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ncbabe

I do not respond well to punishment, like DesFIP I tend to withdraw and get depressed.  I think for this reason I am rarely punished.  If I act out of line or do something wrong, a lengthy discussion follows until he is satisfied I fully understand what I should have done.  At this point I usually feel so regretful and ashamed of my behaviour that punishment is not necessary.  However, if he decided that it was still necessary I would accept it and grow from it.


Just my opinion, but this (the bolded area) is where your thoughts are astray. The feeling of regret and shame is punishment and probably more than punishment enough in my book.


_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to ncbabe)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 8:30:20 AM   
hardbodysub


Posts: 1654
Joined: 8/7/2005
Status: offline 		I'm with Hierodule and agirl. I don't like pain, so it is an effective deterrent and training technique on me. It can also serve as a reminder of who is in control, even if I've not really done anything wrong.

(in reply to DavanKael)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 8:42:42 AM   
beltainefaerie


Posts: 610
Joined: 4/15/2006
Status: offline 		We don't engage in "funishment" as there is not pretense that what we are doing is punishment or that I am a naughty girl.  He beats me when he feels like beating me and fucks me when he feels like fucking me.  Either can be used as punishment or reward (though sex as punishment is an interesting and for most dangerous line to tread)  While I enjoy some of the pain he inflicts, as I am a masochist, there is bad pain too.  I don't enjoy all forms of pain, kind of like just being bisexual doesn't mean I am attracted to everyone on the planet.  When necessary, I have been punished.  It may be physical of a variety I do not enjoy.  It may be mental.  In general, I am a wiling slave.  I submit, obey, and comply, because it pleases both of us.  I do like to feel boundaries, but to purposefully break a rule or fail a task would seem ridiculous to me.  I don't need to invent reasons to be beaten.  I am not a brat, nor trying to make him control me.  We are well suited in our desires and I think that is important. Other dynamics work for other people and that is fine too.  I don't think I would do well in an environment were there was never punishment even when warranted, nor would I thrive with a Master who found fault in things as an excuse to beat me.  For some that is a fun game, but I am a perfectionist and it would just teak with me and make me feel like a failure.  Luckily, Master and I match up nicely in this. 

(in reply to ncbabe)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 8:48:27 AM   
TwistedHeart74


Posts: 722
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline 		Just my two cents here....


Physical punishments work for me. I'm human, there are times I get lippy, cranky and I screw up. I have a bad day at work, come home and snark off. I expect to get a swat, a mark on the chalkboard, a slap. I need that. Telling me you're ashamed of me doesn't work. Denying me your voice will make me shut down. That's too much like manipulation for me and that's something I will not deal with. I think it's cruel. I would expect a reasonable discussion on the why for the punishment, then I'd bend over or stand there and take what I had coming.

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I have a condition...it's called uncunteditis. Ask Porcelaine for details.


Member Lance's Fag Hags

(in reply to hardbodysub)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 9:07:44 AM   
Acer49


Posts: 1434
Joined: 8/7/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetobedience1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elipsis

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetobedience1
Physical or emotional (real) punishment truly upsets me and actually makes me a better person


Could you explain this in more detail to me?  What exactly would you consider "physical or emotional (real) punishment" since it isn't the things that you described below as play?



I meant real punishment versus the "phunishment." The things that qualify as such to me are very hard spankings that make me cry, humiliation, and my Dom calling me a failure, etc. and saying he is going to leave me. I do like light pain but not pain that makes me cry, so it is punishment for me when he did that and modified my behavior. The humiliation aspect for me, previously, was saying those things in public. It wasn't play. He was serious when he called me degrading names in front of everyone at restaurants, etc.

That worked for me, and it's what I'm looking for in a relationship. Just like a lot of children will change to not get spanked, I will, too. Feel free to ask me for more clarification :)

quote:

meant real punishment versus the "phunishment." The things that qualify as such to me are very hard spankings that make me cry, humiliation, and my Dom calling me a failure, etc. and saying he is going to leave me. I do like light pain but not pain that makes me cry, so it is punishment for me when he did that and modified my behavior. The humiliation aspect for me, previously, was saying those things in public. It wasn't play. He was serious when he called me degrading names in front of everyone at restaurants, etc.

That worked for me, and it's what I'm looking for in a relationship. Just like a lot of children will change to not get spanked, I will, too. Feel free to ask me for more clarification :)


While I have no problem accepting that physical punishments work for some, I would never tell a sub they are a failure and I certainly would never tell them that I was going to leave them. One of my prime responsiblities is to instill a sense of security and the belief that while their actions were unacceptable, they are never the less, still desired. For myself, I do not believe in name calling unless you are in a role playing situation and it is pretty much expected. I do not believe anyone has the right to force outsiders to endure to what most would consider as inappropiate behavior.

_____________________________

Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey Fierstein

(in reply to sweetobedience1)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 9:26:56 AM   
hardbodysub


Posts: 1654
Joined: 8/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I don't prefer a sub that needs punishment to behave. That bratty attitude is not for me. Instead, my attention to the things they like is the motivation to behave.


I see this kind of response a lot in threads dealing with punishment and pain. I think it's a little narrow. There seems to be a common belief that only a "bratty sub" could possibly do something that warrants punishment, or that a sub who misbehaves is necessarily doing it on purpose to trigger the punishment (which means that the "punishment" is is actually a reward). Well, there is more to the administration of pain than brats and masochists.

You don't have to be a brat to screw up once in a while (nobody's perfect), especially when the dominant decides how high to set the bar. Also, don't underestimate the importance of the power and control demonstrated by such punishment. There are subs who really don't like pain, but are enthralled by the power and control their dominant has over them. Being punished emphasizes this control. The sub doesn't like the pain, so won't intentionally misbehave, but is paradoxically excited by the reminder of who's in charge when the dominant decides to punish.

Motivation has multiple sources, and both positive and negative reinforcements can be effective. Punishing a non-masochist with pain can serve as negative reinforcement for behavior modification, but it can also provide a strong emphasis on control, and help to cement the partners' roles.

(in reply to GraciousLady)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 9:31:30 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

The idea of being punished appears to be a common bdsm theme.  The applications to/for/by people vary widely. 
Some implement a punishment dynamic for poor behavior. 


my view is simple. in life we're have rules and guidelines that are put in place. some are very straightforward and the consequences of infractions are spelled out, others vary and are determined by the party in charge. i apply the same logic to my exchange. i am the slave, His willing subordinate. He has provided instruction and specific boundaries i'm expected to respect and maintain. if i choose to do otherwise, He is within His right to determine if my behavior warrants corrections. the methods undertaken are His to decide, after all He's the Boss.

i prefer to avoid this whenever possible. obedience is far easier and i'm naturally compliant on most occasions. however, mistakes occur. some due to misinterpretation or inappropriate thinking or priorities. when this occurs i invite the correction, even though it may be unpleasant and have a mental and emotional impact. that isn't the point, the purpose is to ingrain in my mind the importance of adhering to His will. if He continually ignores instances when that does not take place, it sends a message that exceptions exist and that isn't the line of thinking i should embrace.

the expression of contrition is important. if a detailed discussion has not occurred thus far, i risk additional admonishment by admitting where my thinking contradicted His command. i disclose feelings and other factors that may have contributed to the error, and await His guidance and input to allow the appropriate realignment of my thoughts. admittedly this isn't pleasant and it is probable there will be an emotional response as well. however, self inflicted punishment is unacceptable. while it is probable the incident will conjure feelings of shame, disappointment, failure, and many others. i utilize these emotions and His reaction as tools for conditioning instead. they serve as important reminders of what can occur when i deviate from Him.

porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to DavanKael)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 9:45:49 AM   
SteelofUtah


Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact


In Steel's answer above, none of those things actually applied.  It wasn't that clip didn't give a shit or that I hadn't communicated properly.  I had said what I meant, but clip had not taken the severity of My words literally.  In one case in particular, he had thought there was an exception to the rule, didn't consult Me to see if that was the case, and made the wrong judgment call.  Ergo, he got the consequences.



Not Passing Judgement on this one love but yes I did put this up there. It was the last one. It showed that on this subject your word did not carry enough weight and he did what he wanted to anyway.

Pehaps saying they did not give a shit is harsh but that is what I feel when something like this happens. My wishes were not important enough for them NOT to do what they wanted to do and so they did what they felt was best instead.

The four situations will always cover any situation and about 90% of the time that a slave fails if they are really trying it will be the dominants fault, however if the slave doesn't care they will fail a greater amount of the time.

Steel

_____________________________

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(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 11:33:51 AM   
maat


Posts: 62
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		It is as always interesting to read just how many different views there is on this subject.

Im human, i mess up and its not beucs i dont care or dont give i shit. i make mistakes. i wuld also hope for the future that punishement wont be necesery but i also know that it is something that i need.
Im not a masocist but i do enjoy pain. Im submissive so i love the power trip. BUT.. i also dwell. i get caught up in the mistake i made, i make it impossible for myself to get past what i did. i get so hung up in what i did that i cant move on. I hate the feeling of having dissepointed my Dom. I absolutly hate it and at that time wuld do anything to get away from it. I whant to run and hide. Just the tone of his voice culd make me cry.
i dont whant punishment as part of our interaction but i do need it. I need it to be able to move past it, after i have been punished i can move on, all is forgiven and i can let myself be forgiven. i can let myself curl up in his arms and be forgiven and move on.

it happend once, i was caind, not eaven that severly but enough. and i moved on, i was forgiven, i forgave myself.

i still hate it, i still wuld do anything for it not to be necesery but i also know that i need it. The cain stands ready eaven after six years and if i wuld need it again, i wuld hope that it wuld be used.

(in reply to SteelofUtah)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 11:49:45 AM   
UmbraDomina


Posts: 491
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: SE Michigan
Status: offline 		I guess I am lucky. I met, collared, and then married a fully functional adult, who knows right from wrong. A man who through literally hundreds of hours of us communicating face to face, knows what I enjoy and what my expections are for him, without being punished. We enjoy S&M, I am a sadist I get hot and bothered by hearing him scream, and moan, but our interactions are for our mutual pleasure not becouse he has broken some rule or displeased me in some way.

_____________________________

Alexandra ~

~~ And I will show you something different from either your shadow at morning striding behind you Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you; I will show you fear in a handful of dust..... T.S. Elliot ~~

(in reply to ncbabe)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 12:02:39 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
Status: offline 		"It rubs the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again."
 
 

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It's only kinky the first time!!!

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 12:06:02 PM   
sweetsub1957


Posts: 2201
Joined: 4/28/2009
Status: offline 		~Fast Reply~
The combination of a talking to and a spanking works for me.  If it was actual punishment (not phunishment), I could easily tell.  He would ask me "Do you  know what you did wrong?" and I was expected to know and tell Him.  Then we would talk about "WHY did you do it?" (normally it was not an intentional wrongdoing), and then the spanking took place, which was harder than a phunishment one.  By that time, I felt so guilty, remorseful, and fully chastised for whatever it was, I KNEW I'd gotten my come-uppance.  The phunishment spankings would simply be "Assume the position" without all the preliminaries, and it was way obvious which one was taking place.

_____________________________

Member: Lance's Fag Hags.

"That's not just a chip on her shoulder, that's the whole potato!" ~Lady Angelika~

In lowering yourself to talking behind my back, you're perfectly positioned to kiss my ass.

An it harm none, do what ye wilt.

(in reply to UmbraDomina)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 12:15:35 PM   
Hierodule


Posts: 597
Joined: 9/22/2009
Status: offline 		wow. Nice to hear from hardbodysub, porcelaine, twistedheart, agirl, lucylucy and others. I thought I was taking a risk posting about our dynamic but its good to see that many feel the same. I saw some stuff worth quoting:

quote:

ORIGINAL: lucylucy

Once the punishment is over, the slate is wiped clean, so to speak. There’s no lingering blame from him or guilt from me.


yes indeed punishment is closure. Its casue and effect (as agirl said.) I need that.


quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub

Motivation has multiple sources, and both positive and negative reinforcements can be effective. Punishing a non-masochist with pain can serve as negative reinforcement for behavior modification, but it can also provide a strong emphasis on control, and help to cement the partners' roles.


You know, I guess this is where our "funisment" comes in. He will slap me, pinch me, pull my hair, and spank me in a painful but playful way when I haven't been bad. It is much much different than punishment though. There is no confusion. I love it but, again, don't "enjoy" the pain. I love that he has the power in our relationship. Am I aroused by the fact that this man has the right to use my body in anyway he pleases? YES. Does this activity sometimes lead to sex? YES. Does that make me a masochist? NO (but I think he is sadistic, but not as much as some) Does it make real punishment less effective? NO


quote:

ORIGINAL: TwistedHeart74
Telling me you're ashamed of me doesn't work. Denying me your voice will make me shut down. That's too much like manipulation for me and that's something I will not deal with. I think it's cruel. I would expect a reasonable discussion on the why for the punishment, then I'd bend over or stand there and take what I had coming.


exactly how I feel but I haven't found the strength to just stand there and take it yet. As I mentioned I have to be bound. But I think one day I will find that strength. By then I will no longer need punishment though!

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
the purpose is to ingrain in my mind the importance of adhering to His will. if He continually ignores instances when that does not take place, it sends a message that exceptions exist and that isn't the line of thinking i should embrace


Beautifully put! Consistency is so important.

(in reply to SteelofUtah)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 12:36:46 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

ok, punishment dynamics.

you (slave) fucks up.
I (master) punch you dead in the goddam face.
you (slave) don't fuck up like that no more, you don't like to be punched dead in the goddam face.

it is a living, breathing thing.

Ron




I'd envisage sore knuckles for you, my good man .......... LOL.

agirl

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 40
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