Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Punishment Dynamics


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Punishment Dynamics Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 1:11:55 PM   
kccuckoldmist


Posts: 97
Joined: 7/1/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

The idea of being punished appears to be a common bdsm theme.  The applications to/for/by people vary widely. 
Some implement a punishment dynamic for poor behavior. 


my view is simple. in life we're have rules and guidelines that are put in place. some are very straightforward and the consequences of infractions are spelled out, others vary and are determined by the party in charge. i apply the same logic to my exchange. i am the slave, His willing subordinate. He has provided instruction and specific boundaries i'm expected to respect and maintain. if i choose to do otherwise, He is within His right to determine if my behavior warrants corrections. the methods undertaken are His to decide, after all He's the Boss.

i prefer to avoid this whenever possible. obedience is far easier and i'm naturally compliant on most occasions. however, mistakes occur. some due to misinterpretation or inappropriate thinking or priorities. when this occurs i invite the correction, even though it may be unpleasant and have a mental and emotional impact. that isn't the point, the purpose is to ingrain in my mind the importance of adhering to His will. if He continually ignores instances when that does not take place, it sends a message that exceptions exist and that isn't the line of thinking i should embrace.

the expression of contrition is important. if a detailed discussion has not occurred thus far, i risk additional admonishment by admitting where my thinking contradicted His command. i disclose feelings and other factors that may have contributed to the error, and await His guidance and input to allow the appropriate realignment of my thoughts. admittedly this isn't pleasant and it is probable there will be an emotional response as well. however, self inflicted punishment is unacceptable. while it is probable the incident will conjure feelings of shame, disappointment, failure, and many others. i utilize these emotions and His reaction as tools for conditioning instead. they serve as important reminders of what can occur when i deviate from Him.

porcelaine




I think this was wonderfully written.

The punishment dynamic is not to make things worse in the relationship but to deal with something that happen in an open and direct way, have contrition and make BOTH people then forgive and move on. Certainly if the dominant is some way using emotional blackmail to make the submissive go into dark places or worry about getting dumped that is not a reason for punishment not to be in a relationship but just an idiot doing something idiotic.

We as human beings punish to some degree people we have close interactions with. It is just human nature. Most of it innocuous and tiny but so society approved we do not think of it as punishment. So when we get a cold shoulder, or one does not want to be affectionate, one does something that the other normally does for them to avoid them and on and on. Sometimes these things can fester and build up to they explode in inappropriate ways and so out of context it makes communication even more troubling.

To me for those who have a punishment dynamic in their relationship that works will because it provides a process of communication, dealing and moving on and not one to manipulate and make one feel even worse. But at the same time often people who do wrong things to someone can often throw gas on the flames by putting their issues back on the wronged party by making them have to extend the effort and jump through the hoops of the person to comfort them.. This can only bring resentment and problems as well.



_____________________________

"The ultimate authority must always rest with the individual's own reason and critical analysis." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

http://mistress-jen.blogspot.com/

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 2:20:06 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TwistedHeart74

Just my two cents here....


Physical punishments work for me. I'm human, there are times I get lippy, cranky and I screw up. I have a bad day at work, come home and snark off. I expect to get a swat, a mark on the chalkboard, a slap. I need that. Telling me you're ashamed of me doesn't work. Denying me your voice will make me shut down. That's too much like manipulation for me and that's something I will not deal with. I think it's cruel. I would expect a reasonable discussion on the why for the punishment, then I'd bend over or stand there and take what I had coming.


TH, I've got a question. When you act like this are you aware of it? Because I'm not. I honestly don't know that I'm misbehaving. If I did know, I wouldn't do it.

He just asks me why I'm being bitchy or whatever and then I spend a few minutes figuring it out. What we've found is that if I've skipped lunch, that is frequently the cause. So now I pay attention more to the clock and to my meal schedule.

Punishing me for doing it doesn't help if I don't know what I've done wrong or don't know how to change so it doesn't happen again. Saying "Can we swing by Quizno's for a quick bite?" does prevent it.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to TwistedHeart74)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 3:07:22 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: TwistedHeart74

Just my two cents here....


Physical punishments work for me. I'm human, there are times I get lippy, cranky and I screw up. I have a bad day at work, come home and snark off. I expect to get a swat, a mark on the chalkboard, a slap. I need that. Telling me you're ashamed of me doesn't work. Denying me your voice will make me shut down. That's too much like manipulation for me and that's something I will not deal with. I think it's cruel. I would expect a reasonable discussion on the why for the punishment, then I'd bend over or stand there and take what I had coming.


TH, I've got a question. When you act like this are you aware of it? Because I'm not. I honestly don't know that I'm misbehaving. If I did know, I wouldn't do it.

He just asks me why I'm being bitchy or whatever and then I spend a few minutes figuring it out. What we've found is that if I've skipped lunch, that is frequently the cause. So now I pay attention more to the clock and to my meal schedule.

Punishing me for doing it doesn't help if I don't know what I've done wrong or don't know how to change so it doesn't happen again. Saying "Can we swing by Quizno's for a quick bite?" does prevent it.
Sorry to sound so cynical Des but I have a feeling that most, though certainly not all, people know when they are behaving wrongly.  Whether it is due to their period, a shitty day at work, the kid putting the cat in the toilet AFTER the kid filled it up with his daily duty, not eating...most people know their responses to these things AND how they behave in response to those things.  That said, getting smart-ass with me is going to draw a comment meant to draw the submissive's attention to their behavior.  If that doesn't seem to register, than...dependant upon the situation...something further will be said or done. 

I am not saying this is the case in your case but I've heard these kinds of phrases from people...submissives, ums, friends, etc..."I wasn't thinking" (why not?  Would you want me to stop considering what impact my words, thoughts, deeds have on YOU?)...It's not my fault, the boss/kid/cat pissed me off (really?  And do I look like the boss/kid/cat because I had better if you are going to take issue with me when they are the ones "at fault").  They're used as an excuse for indulgent behavior.  I am not saying that no one has the right to be down or to feel ugly or to feel mean but unless I am the cause of it, don't bring it to me.  And if I am the dominant in the dynamic and the one who IS at fault, you'd best have a better way of bringing things to me.

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 3:33:06 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kccuckoldmist

I think this was wonderfully written.


thank you for the compliment. i revisited this recently and have reached a point where i find correction to be beneficial. others may think differently but i've noticed what it sparks within me. the first thing that occurs is it casts attention on a breakdown in the process. my behavior is evidence that some part of me is resisting His authority or failed to comprehend the directive. whatever the case the incident requires me to turn inward and do some soul searching.

i'm aware that being contrary and disobedient is not my natural inclination. it is probable that other factors are influencing my behavior. i may be responding to hidden fears, previous experiences, feelings of uncertainty, dissatisfaction, or other things as well. suffice to say there's a reason and i diligently try to find it. when i'm disobedient i'm consciously aware of my actions, but elect to ignore what i know to be correct and opt to act differently. which is a demonstration of my willingness to forsake my role at that moment by making decisions and exercising authority that i no longer possess.

part of my introspection includes asking myself a serious question as well. why did i do it? mitigating circumstances aside, i made a decision to behave contrary to my Owner's wishes. if i'm unwilling to engage in some self exploration to discover the "why" behind my actions, it is inevitable that the same behaviors will replicate themselves in other areas. it is my belief that i owe Him and myself far more.

porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to kccuckoldmist)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 3:35:03 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		Big surprise here, but I just expect Carol to obey. More elaborately, I look at it like SteelofUtah... the vast majority of the time, the issue is with me. If Carol were to actually do something punishment worthy, I'd feel like she was playing games with me and simply release her. In fact, this is a large part of why I like TPE. The absence of middle ground means that Carol ALWAYS takes my words seriously (discounting again for failures in communciation, yada yada). If I give her a command, she doesn't have to wonder whether it is to be obeyed or not or how serious I was. The answer is always the same. "I'm serious enough to release you."

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to DavanKael)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 3:47:58 PM   
whiteslavebitch


Posts: 479
Joined: 9/10/2007
Status: offline 		Being obedient is my preference, it is hard wired into my psyche. I have only disobeyed once, and I feel that I deserved to be punished. I learned my lesson, and don't plan to be willfully disobedient ever again.

I don't have any issues with receiving punishment when it is earned. Not that I enjoyed it at all

_____________________________

MasterK's whiteslavebitch

formally collared 1/30/09

"I give to you my everything, you've given me these loving wings." - DMB

(in reply to DavanKael)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 3:51:37 PM   
Falkenstein


Posts: 187
Joined: 7/22/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

If I give her a command, she doesn't have to wonder whether it is to be obeyed or not or how serious I was. The answer is always the same. "I'm serious enough to release you."


Jeff,
please excuse the bluntness of my question, but is this not the threat of an incredibly harsh punishment?
I read this as the stark choice of obeying whatever you tell her to do or bring the whole edifice down.

Be seeing you

Henry

_____________________________

Henry,

Part of that power which still
Produceth good, whilst ever scheming ill.

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 4:00:43 PM   
Falkenstein


Posts: 187
Joined: 7/22/2009
Status: offline 		If your sub had a bad day and somehow misbehave she shall not bring it to you, after all its not your fault.

But when you have a bad day, are you able of perfectly insulating her from it?

Because otherwise, and I may be misreading you, you are putting higher exigence levels upon your subs are you are willing to apply to yourself.

Be seeing you,

Henry

_____________________________

Henry,

Part of that power which still
Produceth good, whilst ever scheming ill.

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 4:06:33 PM   
whiteslavebitch


Posts: 479
Joined: 9/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

I meant real punishment versus the "phunishment." The things that qualify as such to me are very hard spankings that make me cry, humiliation, and my Dom calling me a failure, etc. and saying he is going to leave me. I do like light pain but not pain that makes me cry, so it is punishment for me when he did that and modified my behavior. The humiliation aspect for me, previously, was saying those things in public. It wasn't play. He was serious when he called me degrading names in front of everyone at restaurants, etc


Calling me a failure, humiliating me in public, and/or threatening to leave me would break my trust. I have a history of being verbally and psychologically abused, and this would throw me backwards in my recovery from that situation. That is something I could not tolerate.

Calm discussion of the issues, physical punishment, those are things I can handle. Anything that makes me feel unloved, I can't.

_____________________________

MasterK's whiteslavebitch

formally collared 1/30/09

"I give to you my everything, you've given me these loving wings." - DMB

(in reply to sweetobedience1)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 4:11:12 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Falkenstein

Jeff,
please excuse the bluntness of my question, but is this not the threat of an incredibly harsh punishment?
I read this as the stark choice of obeying whatever you tell her to do or bring the whole edifice down.


he clearly said he preferred tpe - total power exchange.

not....

when the mood strikes exchange.
lets talk about it exchange.
i'll obey if it suits my needs exchange.
i'll follow your directive because you asked nicely exchange.
i'll do it because you haven't asked anything too difficult exchange
hell no because that wasn't on the list exchange.
can we compromise exchange.
lets negotiate the terms because i don't like what you've asked.
i'll be a pansy and cave whenever you say no exchange.

but total. as in. you say the word and consider it done exchange. simple. real simple.

porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to Falkenstein)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 4:39:27 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Big surprise here, but I just expect Carol to obey. More elaborately, I look at it like SteelofUtah... the vast majority of the time, the issue is with me. If Carol were to actually do something punishment worthy, I'd feel like she was playing games with me and simply release her. In fact, this is a large part of why I like TPE. The absence of middle ground means that Carol ALWAYS takes my words seriously (discounting again for failures in communciation, yada yada). If I give her a command, she doesn't have to wonder whether it is to be obeyed or not or how serious I was. The answer is always the same. "I'm serious enough to release you."


Obviously my relationship is vastly different but I can understand yours.  The reason for that is that longheld relationships have their own *reasons* for working and agreements for how things'll be organised. I can't imagine being released for  my occasional disobedience. I'm owned whether I'm disobedient or not. That's how it's always been. There is no *other type of relationship* waiting in the wings for me.

If lapses of mine caused the *end* it would be the utter end. He took ownership of what stood in front of him, with all it's annoyances and frustrations. I was prepared to live under his *rule* and he was prepared to accept what owning me meant too.

I also have a choice.......I can run free, do whatever I like and not have to face any consequences, ever.........or I can TRY to live within the bounds of what I asked for and accept the consequences for the times when I don't. He also had the choice of owning me at the outset. Hence his lack of disappointment........he KNEW what the *creature* was like. I also knew what HE was like .

We both have what we asked for , or agreed to. Neither of us would grumble about it. But it would have been a crazy man to have owned me expecting that I'd never break a rule............and I'd have been incredibly foolish if I'd thought I could do so and escape with my lovely, winning smile.

He's got my passion, my attention, my focus, my adoration, my worship, my admiration and my consistant willingness to keep trying above, and beyond, my nature. I don't have much more to give really.

agirl







(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 4:39:56 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		Exactly as Porcelaine said. In addition, I might note that the very first time Carol says "no", it is by definition NOT TOTAL and it wasn't me who did it. In the end, I would release Carol only because if I did not, then I am making a mockery of the word "total".

Also note that in our case, "releasing' Carol is only a shift in status. She's my wife and very little that could happen in the M/s arena would affect that. But I'm not going to call her my slave if she's already abdicated the position.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 4:54:22 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Falkenstein

Jeff,
please excuse the bluntness of my question, but is this not the threat of an incredibly harsh punishment?
I read this as the stark choice of obeying whatever you tell her to do or bring the whole edifice down.


he clearly said he preferred tpe - total power exchange.

not....

when the mood strikes exchange.
lets talk about it exchange.
i'll obey if it suits my needs exchange.
i'll follow your directive because you asked nicely exchange.
i'll do it because you haven't asked anything too difficult exchange
hell no because that wasn't on the list exchange.
can we compromise exchange.
lets negotiate the terms because i don't like what you've asked.
i'll be a pansy and cave whenever you say no exchange.

but total. as in. you say the word and consider it done exchange. simple. real simple.

porcelaine



It's not *simple* for other people to understand  just because YOU *get it*.

I have to say that Jeff does a better job of explaining and answering people's personal questions on HIS relationship himself. You may have enormous insight into it but it ends up looking like you're speaking for him. Weird.

agirl




(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 5:12:44 PM   
MasterAramis


Posts: 279
Joined: 7/29/2008
From: Connecticut
Status: offline 		Excellent topic for discussion. As a child, I was raised in a family who believed in spankings. I was extremely fearful of my father when things went south. Looking back at it, I can't really blame them nor do I, this was how they were raised, even more so. However as adults and even for children I am not really sure if this is something that works long term.

My slave doesn't react well to physical punishment. She wasn't raised that way and it is foreign to her. Not to say that I don't flog her from time to time, but it's for my pleasure, not for her behavior. This she understands and submits when required. As for punishment, I find that I can get more from her through other positive means, however I will tell you it's a difficult process.

Many studies have been done on the subject, and it seems that ignoring the behavior you don't want and rewarding the behavior that you do want seems to be the accepted practice. I have difficulty with this method as I am a straight forward man. If you do things I don't like, I will tell you. But you know everyone reacts differently, so I think whatever works, for both the short term behavior as well as the long term emotional stability of the person in question. Like I said I was very fearful of my dad while I grew up and even to this day, my relationship is not as strong as it should be, so we should also look at what lies down the road as well!

Thanks for posting!

Aramis

(in reply to ncbabe)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 5:26:27 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

I have to say that Jeff does a better job of explaining and answering people's personal questions on HIS relationship himself. You may have enormous insight into it but it ends up looking like you're speaking for him. Weird.


of course you're not speaking for him by suggesting i don't respond to questions posed to him. imagine the irony.

porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to agirl)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 5:31:41 PM   
Elipsis


Posts: 301
Joined: 7/8/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elipsis

It sounds like you're trying to draw a distinction between actual punishment and "punishment" used for play...

In trying to think of a good answer to your question... actually nevermind you didn't ask a question but in thinking about it I ran into something... so now I'm going to ask a paradoxical question and I'd like to hear opinions on this because it's something I don't have an answer to.

If a girl tells you she "wants to be punished when she gets out of line" or some such thing... and then she does something that you (and she?) would consider out of line... what exactly do you do or how precisely do you go about punishing someone who already told you that they desire to be punished.  If you're giving someone what they told you they want, how is that a punishment?

Conversely, as DavanKael alluded to... if you actually do something to them that they don't truly want than won't they just be unhappy and then leave?

 

G'day Elipsis,
I know girls who will tell a new master or Dominant that she expect to be punished if she commits an offence. In some cases this is a hint that she may deliberately make mistakes to be punished (In this case I'd be grabbing her by the short and curlies and explaining that we can do punishment games if she earns them by her being exemplary.behaviour). On the other hand if her comment is simply an indication that she expects not to be allowed to make mistakes and wants her new Master to take a strict control over her, I see this as just being open and honest which I would appreciate. I'm not suire Elipsis, what you experience with slaves in a hard M/s dynamic is (Gor included here), but from my own experience I can say that the two worst forms of punishment is knowing that she/he has been found displeasing and not being allowed to speak to the Master for a period.



Hmm, thanks for the reply IronBear.  Based on my perception of the maturity level of the people I have talked to, I have interpreted their comments more so the former than the latter.  I like your response of offering punishment games (funishment, lol) as a reward for good behavior.

Appreciated, and to answer your implied question, my experience in a hard master / slave dynamic is nil, but I've gotten the comment even from those who are looking for something a lot less extreme than a full time power exchange.  I like the idea of not speaking... but again I question if it's something they find truly displeasing and you find yourself constantly doing it to them don't they just leave that relationship?  I guess the answer to that is that if they want to submit than you don't need to constantly be punishing them?

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 5:35:44 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

I have to say that Jeff does a better job of explaining and answering people's personal questions on HIS relationship himself. You may have enormous insight into it but it ends up looking like you're speaking for him. Weird.


of course you're not speaking for him by suggesting i don't respond to questions posed to him. imagine the irony.

porcelaine



No, I'm not.

I SAID that he does a better job himself. I don't *suggest* things ......I SAY them.

agirl









(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 5:40:29 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		OK, any chance I could get all domly with the two of you and get you not to argue on my behalf over something I don't care about? Especially seeing as I kind of like the two of you. Would it blow the domly thing if I said "please?"

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to agirl)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 5:44:21 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Big surprise here, but I just expect Carol to obey. More elaborately, I look at it like SteelofUtah... the vast majority of the time, the issue is with me. If Carol were to actually do something punishment worthy, I'd feel like she was playing games with me and simply release her. In fact, this is a large part of why I like TPE. The absence of middle ground means that Carol ALWAYS takes my words seriously (discounting again for failures in communciation, yada yada). If I give her a command, she doesn't have to wonder whether it is to be obeyed or not or how serious I was. The answer is always the same. "I'm serious enough to release you."


What do you do when the commands conflict with the need to deepen the relationship? You've said you do this because it helps you both be better people and have a better relationship, stronger love bonds.

But you've also said you could easily command her to have sex with someone who made her skin crawl just to prove that you have total control and that it isn't her body, but yours.  What happens when the need to prove that you do have this control is something that would weaken her love for you? That would make the relationship have problems as opposed to being stronger.

Because when there are more than one motive in play, there are likely to be conflicts.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Punishment Dynamics - 10/20/2009 5:48:32 PM   
CaringandReal


Posts: 1397
Joined: 2/15/2008
Status: offline 		Is there a reason why punishment begins with a pun? (confused)

I approve of punishment and behavor mod of all sorts for myself, btw. I think it's effective and I also like being modified. :)

_____________________________

"A friend who bleeds is better" --placebo

"How seldom we recognize the sound when the bolt of our fate slides home." --thomas harris

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 60
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Punishment Dynamics Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.113