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RE: Is Scientology a religion? - 11/4/2009 9:54:27 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
show me one that encourages self harm or the harm of others...
i dont mean what is taught... i mean what is written for the masses.


Well a number of religions which demand human sacrifice come to mind but you'll probably find passages from a modern one more convincing:


Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods.  In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully.  If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock.  Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it.  Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God.  That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt.  Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction.  Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you.  He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors.  "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."  (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him.  Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you.  You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery.  And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst.  (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden.  When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death.  (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever.  It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy.  Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy.  Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community.  Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest.  I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.'  (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you.  You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land.  You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.  You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.  (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years.  Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom.  If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year.  But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him.  If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master.  But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children.  I would rather not go free.'  If he does this, his master must present him before God.  Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl.  After that, the slave will belong to his master forever.  (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished.  If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.  (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)  Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear.  Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.  (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)



(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: Is Scientology a religion? - 11/4/2009 10:00:04 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Neither. Last i checked, sex was supposed to be for married people who wanted to have children, according to the bible.

Married people who don't want children aren't allowed to have sex? Married couples that only want a couple of children are forbidden from having sex more than a couple of times in their lives. 

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: Is Scientology a religion? - 11/4/2009 10:05:12 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Hey, thats what his religion states if the reason for sex. If he stated otherwise, you would be calling him a hypocrit. Funny how that works.

As i said... religious guidance... see the Priest, Clergy, Head Deacon, whathave you.

Medical guidance.. see a Dr.

Condom use in a religious setting... its not needed.

Condom use in a medical setting... oh hell yes!! buy lots!!

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 163
RE: Is Scientology a religion? - 11/4/2009 10:07:18 PM   
DerangedUnit


Posts: 660
Joined: 2/23/2007
Status: offline 		ummmm what about hebrews 12:5-11 lol

my son do not despise the chastening of the lord, nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by him. for whom the lord loves he chastens, and scourges every son whom he receives.

but if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

now no chastening seems to be joyous for the present, but PAINFUL; nevertheless afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of the righteousness to those who have TRAINED for it.

or 1 peter 2:11 for this is commendable if because of conscience towards god one endures grief, suffering wrongfully...

yada yada on and on the entire bible(this is from nkj) is full of sodomy torture suffering and god is usually the one enacting it... servants be submissive to your masters not only to the good and gentle but also to the harsh .... likewise wives be submissive to your husbands.... husbands treat your wives with understanding as to the weaker vessel....

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 164
RE: Is Scientology a religion? - 11/4/2009 10:07:21 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

i have no clue...lol... im not well versed on scientology

GotSteel just wants me to back down and give in to his ideas about religion.


I didn't write the dictionary definitions, they aren't my idea. I asked for her definition of religion and we are talking about religion because it's unlikely we'll get to an agreement about what counts as a religion if we mean completely different things when we use the word religion.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Is Scientology a religion? - 11/4/2009 10:17:26 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		lets not forget, translations were definitely screwed up between the Hebrew and the King James version... lol.

Now, when you can post in One version, let me know. For now, im off to bed. Tomorrow i will repost what you have tried to suggest and show you where your translations have gone astray

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Is Scientology a religion? - 11/4/2009 10:20:10 PM   
DerangedUnit


Posts: 660
Joined: 2/23/2007
Status: offline 		oh if we are talking thee original FULL unaltered version of the bible i have a ton more... that is way to much typing to be worth it though... i'm going back to useful uses of my mind now...

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 167
RE: Is Scientology a religion? - 11/4/2009 10:33:20 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DerangedUnit
wives be submissive to your husbands

Yeah Ephesians 5:22 sure hasn't been good for women's rights. Probably the worst passage for women's rights is:

I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, she must be silent.(1 Timothy 2:12)

(in reply to DerangedUnit)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Is Scientology a religion? - 11/4/2009 11:13:52 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

lets not forget, translations were definitely screwed up between the Hebrew and the King James version... lol.

Now, when you can post in One version, let me know. For now, im off to bed. Tomorrow i will repost what you have tried to suggest and show you where your translations have gone astray


Nice try but there's one little problem with that, the NLT was translated from the Hebrew and Greek NOT from the KJV: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Living_Translation


Furthermore, regardless of how messed up you think the translation is, even if it was a complete forgery it would still be what is written for the masses and those passages clearly encourage the harm of others. That's what you asked for.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: Is Scientology a religion? - 11/4/2009 11:22:20 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WeWuvFwuffy4evah
what does Scientology say about condoms and sex for pleasure, Tazzy and Steely?


It's a little harder to know with Scientology as they aren't exactly as open as the religions we are used to but this is what wiki has to say on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_and_sex There's some stuff I take issue with in there:

In 1982 Hubbard authored Pain and Sex, in which he is critical of psychiatrists (referred to as "psychs"), and ascribes the woes of society to "the psychs".[4] According to Hubbard, under the "false data of the psychs ... both pain and sex are gaining ground in this society and, coupled with robbery (which is a hooded companion of both), may very well soon make the land a true jungle of crime". Beyond this, in this same bulletin, Hubbard states that that pain and sex are both "invented tools of degradation" by "destructive creatures" with the intention "to shrink people and cut their alertness, knowingness, power and reach." [4]

(in reply to WeWuvFwuffy4evah)
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RE: Is Scientology a religion? - 11/5/2009 6:27:28 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Yours...

quote:

Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)



Others...


quote:

Deuteronomy 17:2-5 (American Standard Version)

2 If there be found in the midst of thee, within any of thy gates which Jehovah thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that doeth that which is evil in the sight of Jehovah thy God, in transgressing his covenant,

3 and hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, or the sun, or the moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;

4 and it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, then shalt thou inquire diligently; and, behold, if it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel,

5 then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, who hath done this evil thing, unto thy gates, even the man or the woman; and thou shalt stone them to death with stones.



quote:

Deuteronomy 17:2-5 (Today's New International Version)
2 If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the LORD gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the LORD your God in violation of his covenant, 3 and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars in the sky, 4 and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, 5 take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death.


quote:

Deuteronomy 17:2-5 (Contemporary English Version)

Put To Death People Who Worship Idols
Moses said to Israel:
2-3The LORD your God is giving you towns to live in. But later, a man or a woman in your town may start worshiping other gods, or even the sun, moon, or stars. [a] I have warned you not to worship other gods, because whoever worships them is disobeying the LORD and breaking the agreement he made with you. 4So when you hear that someone in your town is committing this disgusting sin, you must carefully find out if that person really is guilty. 5-7But you will need two or three witnesses--one witness isn't enough to prove a person guilty. Get rid of those who are guilty of such evil. Take them outside your town gates and have everyone stone them to death. But the witnesses must be the first to throw stones.


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2017:2-5&version=CEV

Now, your version makes it sound like you can just snag someone out the gates, point a finger, then stone them to death. Didnt quite happen that way. Sounds like, from the others, that a trial of sorts was needed. As i said, translations can be oveerworked, misunderstood, and twisted to gain or lose whatever it is your final goal happens to be.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: Is Scientology a religion? - 11/5/2009 6:30:01 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: DerangedUnit
wives be submissive to your husbands

Yeah Ephesians 5:22 sure hasn't been good for women's rights. Probably the worst passage for women's rights is:

I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, she must be silent.(1 Timothy 2:12)



LOL... and you believe i should have problems with this? In that time, it was the norm. Many religions have since come to put women into positions of power. Perhaps not as clergy, but in charge or finances, charities and such. While some do believe a wife/woman should be submissive to the man in her life... and i totally agree with that, but only for myself... that doesnt mean she was, or ever will be, a doormat for society.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 172
RE: Is Scientology a religion? - 11/5/2009 6:38:55 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

lets not forget, translations were definitely screwed up between the Hebrew and the King James version... lol.

Now, when you can post in One version, let me know. For now, im off to bed. Tomorrow i will repost what you have tried to suggest and show you where your translations have gone astray


Nice try but there's one little problem with that, the NLT was translated from the Hebrew and Greek NOT from the KJV: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Living_Translation


Furthermore, regardless of how messed up you think the translation is, even if it was a complete forgery it would still be what is written for the masses and those passages clearly encourage the harm of others. That's what you asked for.




So, if its a forgery... is it the religion asking, demanding, these things or the person who transcribed it?

Much of what you posted was old testament. Fullfilled with the death of Jesus, according to christianity. Which is why sacrifices were not longer needed. Jesus was the blood of the lamb for all.

Slavery was very much a part of the times back then. So, while taking a book that describes the history of the earth, man, law and religion, you nit pick and weed out what you dont want to see, display what you do, and never once explain how it is germaine or not to the world we now live in. And this has been where you have been wrong all along. Our own country advocated the holdings of slaves. When we teach of that now, are we encouraging others to have slaves?

We can teach history without anyone believing its supposed to be applied to the here and now. Or, at least some of us realize this. Not quite so sure about the rest.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 11/5/2009 6:39:38 AM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: Is Scientology a religion? - 11/5/2009 5:22:05 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Now, your version makes it sound like you can just snag someone out the gates, point a finger, then stone them to death. Didnt quite happen that way. Sounds like, from the others, that a trial of sorts was needed. As i said, translations can be oveerworked, misunderstood, and twisted to gain or lose whatever it is your final goal happens to be.

You're engaging in a red herring fallacy. Each and every one of those translations advocates stoning people to death. Stoning people to death harms them. You asked for an example of what's written for the masses advocating harm to others, there it is.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Is Scientology a religion? - 11/5/2009 5:58:09 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Every religion, every society, has laws that allow for punishment. By your definition, imprisoning someone for murder would be "harming" them because you are denying them their freedom.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 175
RE: Is Scientology a religion? - 11/5/2009 7:58:12 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline 		The death penalty certainly harms people.


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 176
RE: Is Scientology a religion? - 11/5/2009 8:03:26 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Yes it does.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 177
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