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RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 8:35:49 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife


No police, no fire department, no military, no laws, no regulation, just everyone on their own to fight everything out among themselves.




It seems odd to me that ‘the people’ so often discount themselves in the existence of humanity.

What does government have, which does not exist amongst the people? Truth? Authority?

Kim


As rule says, a mandate to provide the basic social infrastructure their society needs to run which private interests tend not to be interested in supplying.
That of course, is in theory, as in practice many governments see their role in quite different terms.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to cpK69)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 8:56:21 AM   
Underumam


Posts: 485
Joined: 12/18/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterS


quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam

Being a history buff(and a major), I just like to toss things like this out there every now and then. Reminders are good. Speaking of which, has anyone seen the similarity to what's happening in the U.S. these days and post WW1 Russia?  It's damn chilling.



Care to expand your analogy?

H.


Sure, under Stalin/Lenin the Russian gov. began taking control of food production-distribution, financial institutions, transportation, labor, manufacturing, and so forth. Poof- the USSR was  born. This is now repeating itself, the methods might be slightly different today by the US and other govs., but the end result is still the same......

(in reply to HunterS)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 8:58:07 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		end result of being born, or end result of crumbling?

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Underumam)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 9:12:51 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterS


quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam

Being a history buff(and a major), I just like to toss things like this out there every now and then. Reminders are good. Speaking of which, has anyone seen the similarity to what's happening in the U.S. these days and post WW1 Russia?  It's damn chilling.



Care to expand your analogy?

H.


Sure, under Stalin/Lenin the Russian gov. began taking control of food production-distribution, financial institutions, transportation, labor, manufacturing, and so forth. Poof- the USSR was  born. This is now repeating itself, the methods might be slightly different today by the US and other govs., but the end result is still the same......

And just how in hell do you see this as repeating itself?
One would expect better from a "history buff" and a "(major)"
Your analogy screams right wing militia type.....not a former Major in any branch of the service.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Underumam)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 9:15:32 AM   
Underumam


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Joined: 12/18/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

end result of being born, or end result of crumbling?


If you're referring to the collapse of the Soviet Union, that speaks for itself. However, The U.S. is slowly falling under the complete rule of the fed.gov. and we the pwoplw are seemingly powerless to stop it. Healthcare reform is just the latest sector of the public to be taken over. We've seen welfare, taxation, miltary incursion, NAFTA, the transportation industry, the banking system, the judicial system, employment, and now the health care systems falling one by one under gov. control. It's obvious that the methods used to accomplish this are vastly different, but the same result is happening and the majority of the people don't see it for what it is..

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 9:20:58 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		As someone been reading too many right wing pamphlets?


_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Underumam)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 9:22:24 AM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam

we the pwoplw



Is that Polish  ?

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 9:24:53 AM   
Underumam


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Joined: 12/18/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam

we the pwoplw



Is that Polish  ?


lol.

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 9:26:07 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam

we the pwoplw



Is that Polish  ?
With everything else he offers to punch holes in....you pick his spelling...tsk tsk Kittin,spelling is the least of his problems.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 9:46:50 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		under,

I will predict with some accuracy if you do obtain the baccalaureate in history, you will not be giving lectures at university or gradeschools.

transportation, taxation, social stricture and many more things were under the hand of such luminaries as Caesar, Alexander, Attilla, Constantine, Ghengis Khan, The Yellow Emperor, Gladstone, Isabella, Phillip, and the list is endless......

Your seeing only this as somehow equivalent to Russia after WWI only lacks Russians, ArchDuke Ferdinand, a Tsar, spiked helmets, Rural Electrification, the spanish flu (nah, I will give you H1N1), Marshall Petain and just about everything else to be plausible.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 9:51:20 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
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From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

under,

I will predict with some accuracy if you do obtain the baccalaureate in history, you will not be giving lectures at university or gradeschools.

transportation, taxation, social stricture and many more things were under the hand of such luminaries as Caesar, Alexander, Attilla, Constantine, Ghengis Khan, The Yellow Emperor, Gladstone, Isabella, Phillip, and the list is endless......

Your seeing only this as somehow equivalent to Russia after WWI only lacks Russians, ArchDuke Ferdinand, a Tsar, spiked helmets, Rural Electrification, the spanish flu (nah, I will give you H1N1), Marshall Petain and just about everything else to be plausible.

Ron
LOL...Ron, how the fuck did Marshall Petain get involved in this?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 9:54:55 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		You don't see any locus between WWI, Marshall Petain, Healthcare Reform and what Thomas Jefferson said?

It's right there on the end of your nose, mike!!!!!!!!!

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 10:01:12 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Well I'll check the end of my nose and get back to you Ron...but off the top of my head the connection seems as tenuous as under's analogy with post WW1 Russia.
As usual you continue to be ammusing.....if just a little starnge 

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 10:05:55 AM   
mnottertail


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Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

starnge 


why are so many poles so interested in this thread?

LOLOLOLOL.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 10:08:55 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Okay,just to be clear that was a typing error....not a spelling error ...as proof I would ask you to go back and check,all the right letters are there...just in a screwed up order lol.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 10:26:54 AM   
Underumam


Posts: 485
Joined: 12/18/2008
Status: offline 		 I love discussing and considering different perspectives on history and etc. However, when others choose to resort to character attacks rather than intelligently discussing the issues at hand, my interest soon fades .

For clarity's sake, I am NOT an ex major in the military, I was a grunt. I am a history major, as well as a history buff. lol.

Now, my reason for introducing this topic was/is not to ridicule or belittle anyone for any reason, but merely to open a discussion about what's going on right under our collective noses. The emperor does NOT have any clothes on, yet if anyone chooses to imagine he does, go for it- my discussion does not apply to them. Far too many of my friends and acquaintances are now in exactly the same situation Jefferson described long ago- that being they are now homeless in the land their forefathers conquered. If this present course continues, we will all end up in the same boat.

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 10:32:34 AM   
cpK69


Posts: 1593
Joined: 5/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Why was government established in the first place?



You’re asking me to speculate; probably not a good idea for me to do so, at least, not on this topic. Isn’t it sufficient to see what it is now is not in line with the goal ‘we’ claim?

quote:


What would you suggest as an alternative to police, fire departments, and other government services?

That we each take those functions upon ourselves individually?


Is it not, ultimately, ‘the people’ who operate and perform the duties of police and fire departments, and other “government services”?

The alternative to government would involve a lot more (plainly written) fact, a lot less opinion, and yes, more involvement by the individual.

What does JFK’s statement “ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country”, mean to you?

Kim

< Message edited by cpK69 -- 12/1/2009 10:33:09 AM >

_____________________________

Humility is where weakness and strength meet and humanity begins.

one voice

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 10:45:03 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

Is it not, ultimately, ‘the people’ who operate and perform the duties of police and fire departments, and other “government services”?

The alternative to government would involve a lot more (plainly written) fact, a lot less opinion, and yes, more involvement by the individual.

What does JFK’s statement “ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country”, mean to you?

Kim



No, penultimately in pragmatism (as Merc would have it), I can't go out and start killing child molesters, saving the government time and expense, and then deducting it on my taxes.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to cpK69)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 10:57:11 AM   
cpK69


Posts: 1593
Joined: 5/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


As rule says, a mandate to provide the basic social infrastructure their society needs to run which private interests tend not to be interested in supplying.


Who provides that mandate?

quote:

That of course, is in theory, as in practice many governments see their role in quite different terms.


And when theory doesn't jive with reality? Isn't that the stuff 'religions' are made of?

Kim

_____________________________

Humility is where weakness and strength meet and humanity begins.

one voice

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 10:59:40 AM   
Silence8


Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam

The emperor does NOT have any clothes on, yet if anyone chooses to imagine he does, go for it- my discussion does not apply to them. Far too many of my friends and acquaintances are now in exactly the same situation Jefferson described long ago- that being they are now homeless in the land their forefathers conquered. If this present course continues, we will all end up in the same boat.



This is hardly new (and the thread on the 'Working Day' deals with many of the same issues).

Are you familiar with Shay's Rebellion? It's foreclosure, Articles of Confederation style. Mostly subsistence farmers and ex-military getting screwed over by Boston bankers, amid massive speculation.

(in reply to Underumam)
Profile   Post #: 40
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