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RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 11:03:38 AM

mnottertail

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam

The emperor does NOT have any clothes on, yet if anyone chooses to imagine he does, go for it- my discussion does not apply to them. Far too many of my friends and acquaintances are now in exactly the same situation Jefferson described long ago- that being they are now homeless in the land their forefathers conquered. If this present course continues, we will all end up in the same boat.

This is hardly new (and the thread on the 'Working Day' deals with many of the same issues).

Are you familiar with Shay's Rebellion? It's foreclosure, Articles of Confederation style. Mostly subsistence farmers and ex-military getting screwed over by Boston bankers, amid massive speculation.

and that is why the old chestnut 'the pen is mightier than the sword' holds true.

Ron

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RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 11:04:39 AM

Lucienne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam

Being a history buff(and a major), I just like to toss things like this out there every now and then. Reminders are good. Speaking of which, has anyone seen the similarity to what's happening in the U.S. these days and post WW1 Russia? It's damn chilling.

{wonders what masochistic urge just sent her to peruse the politics/religion forum}

As a history buff, I'm sure you remember that the first Russian Revolution occurred almost 18 months before Armistice Day and I'm also sure you don't mean to suggest that the US has recently undergone two revolutions, and the overthrow of an autocrat. I'm super dooper sure you've noticed that the US is not currently in the middle of a civil war.

But other than that (and ignoring the profound differences in culture and economic systems), you are correct, the similarities are chilling. Why, just the other day I signed a petition to exclude jews from higher education.

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RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 11:15:55 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

As rule says, a mandate to provide the basic social infrastructure their society needs to run which private interests tend not to be interested in supplying.

Who provides that mandate?

The electorate, which is why the argument (not yours, I know) that all laws are underpinned by violence doesn't really work. People are governed by consent. It may be a defacto thing because they're too lazy to kick up a fuss over their situation, but it's still consent.

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RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 11:20:31 AM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

No, penultimately in pragmatism (as Merc would have it), I can't go out and start killing child molesters, saving the government time and expense, and then deducting it on my taxes.

Ron

I do not understand why so many seem to think 'liberty' means 'free for all'.

Kim

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RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 11:22:14 AM

mnottertail

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I have no idea, Kim ask someone who does, that is a far piece from what I was replying to.

Ron

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RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 11:28:23 AM

Antiquity

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam

Being a history buff(and a major), I just like to toss things like this out there every now and then. Reminders are good. Speaking of which, has anyone seen the similarity to what's happening in the U.S. these days and post WW1 Russia? It's damn chilling.

{wonders what masochistic urge just sent her to peruse the politics/religion forum}

As a history buff, I'm sure you remember that the first Russian Revolution occurred almost 18 months before Armistice Day and I'm also sure you don't mean to suggest that the US has recently undergone two revolutions, and the overthrow of an autocrat. I'm super dooper sure you've noticed that the US is not currently in the middle of a civil war.

But other than that (and ignoring the profound differences in culture and economic systems), you are correct, the similarities are chilling. Why, just the other day I signed a petition to exclude jews from higher education.

That... that was just perfect.

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Post #: 46

RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 11:31:40 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

No, penultimately in pragmatism (as Merc would have it), I can't go out and start killing child molesters, saving the government time and expense, and then deducting it on my taxes.

Ron

I do not understand why so many seem to think 'liberty' means 'free for all'.

Kim

Probably read too much Ayn Rand.

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RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 11:36:26 AM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I have no idea, Kim ask someone who does, that is a far piece from what I was replying to.

Ron

Oh, then I misunderstood you. My apologies.

Would you mind helping a girl out then?

Kim

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RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 11:38:58 AM

NormalOutside

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Good post, OP.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
I know that is not an optimistic outlook, but it is true. Idiots think the national debt is something we owe to ourselves, or it is merely the trade imbalance. Further instruction is needed to further the interests of those who wish to educate others. You can't shove it down their throat. You must cause them to impel themselves to learn. Fighting brainwashing with simple fact is not enough. They must form the opinion on their own and decide not to trust here but to instead trust there.

Wisdom right here.

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RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 12:00:13 PM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

People are governed by consent. It may be a defacto thing because they're too lazy to kick up a fuss over their situation, but it's still consent.

I suspect there are multiple reasons.

All I know is being one voice against a governing body, whether it be majority of people, or majority of money, rarely gets heard.

Kim

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RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 12:09:38 PM

Moonhead

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Really? I always get the impression that you've elected a lot of people who make a big deal of claiming that over there. They've always been talking out of their arses, but it hasn't stopped them making these claims.

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RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 12:18:50 PM

Silence8

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

As rule says, a mandate to provide the basic social infrastructure their society needs to run which private interests tend not to be interested in supplying.

Who provides that mandate?

The electorate, which is why the argument (not yours, I know) that all laws are underpinned by violence doesn't really work. People are governed by consent. It may be a defacto thing because they're too lazy to kick up a fuss over their situation, but it's still consent.

It doesn't work? Isn't that what the state is, in economic terms, the owner of the monopoly of violence? Name one government that was formed without violent means (or the threat of these means.) State and violence define each other like two sides of the same coin.

The curious thing about democracy is that even if you don't vote, it still lives on. Can you imagine a democracy where, if voter turnout does not exceed some percentage, the government just dissolves? Maybe there could be a "none of the above" choice on the ballet. Then, perhaps, your argument could be salvaged.

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RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 12:25:12 PM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Really? I always get the impression that you've elected a lot of people who make a big deal of claiming that over there. They've always been talking out of their arses, but it hasn't stopped them making these claims.

The majority elected... I don't believe I qualify to be considered one of the majority.

Last presidential election, I voted "we the people". I wonder how many others voted the same.

Kim

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RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 12:35:09 PM

AnimusRex

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam

Healthcare reform is just the latest sector of the public to be taken over. We've seen welfare, taxation, miltary incursion, NAFTA, the transportation industry, the banking system, the judicial system, employment, and now the health care systems falling one by one under gov. control. It's obvious that the methods used to accomplish this are vastly different, but the same result is happening and the majority of the people don't see it for what it is..

Funny- you see the corporations as falling under government control...what do you say to the people who think that perhaps the government is falling under the control of the corporations?
For instance, Goldman Sachs has a revolving door whereby their executives go to work for the government, then return to resume positions with the bank. They have a direct line to the Treasury Secretary, exercising influence and power that no one else has.
Corporate lobbyists not only help write the bills that are passed, but actually write the speeches that our elected representatives speak on the House floor.

Your thoughts on this?

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RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 12:36:45 PM

slvemike4u

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam

I love discussing and considering different perspectives on history and etc. However, when others choose to resort to character attacks rather than intelligently discussing the issues at hand, my interest soon fades .

For clarity's sake, I am NOT an ex major in the military, I was a grunt. I am a history major, as well as a history buff. lol.

Now, my reason for introducing this topic was/is not to ridicule or belittle anyone for any reason, but merely to open a discussion about what's going on right under our collective noses. The emperor does NOT have any clothes on, yet if anyone chooses to imagine he does, go for it- my discussion does not apply to them. Far too many of my friends and acquaintances are now in exactly the same situation Jefferson described long ago- that being they are now homeless in the land their forefathers conquered. If this present course continues, we will all end up in the same boat.

You ventured far afeild of any "history" discussionion when you offered your analogy comparing the US to post WW1 Russia.Any ridicule you feel I have directed your way was due to that as opposed to your Jefferson quote.
Given your beleif about the direction this country is headed.....and your implied justification for those beleifs I think what you refer to as a "character attack" was way too mild.
Edited to add......seems I needn't have bothered...another poster has dealt with your silly analogy....and did it far better than I could have.Actually took the time to tear it apart,whereas all I had done was reject it out of hand as rediculous on its face.

< Message edited by slvemike4u -- 12/1/2009 12:43:35 PM >

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RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 12:49:40 PM

Lockit

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<<<< skips in to say... Underumam isn't allowed to come out to play for a while. I had other plans for him today and he has a collaring ceremony to attend. So... enjoy yourselves... but he won't be able to participate for a bit. I didn't want anyone to think he ran away... it's more like captured!

I've got him now! hehe

< Message edited by Lockit -- 12/1/2009 12:51:19 PM >

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RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 12:54:01 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

Your thoughts on this?

I know your question was addressed to someone else, but it looks to me like a partnership of sorts, in effect, at least, if not yet openly by statute, which seems to recall our old friend Benito Mussolini's definition of Fascism.

Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism, because it is a merger of state and corporate power.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/1/2009 12:59:42 PM >

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RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 2:32:49 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Give me rossignol or give me head!!!!!!!

Jean Claude Killy

Your Nom de plume has gone downhill fast Ron.

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RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 2:33:23 PM

jackod

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10 most dangerous words: Im from the goverment and Im going to help you.Too many sheeple asked for help and now we are ALL slaves to the international bankers,there is no way out,new world order is here-one world goverment,cashless society,chip in your "ass",population controll,etc,sincerely,jack,los angeles

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RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/1/2009 2:38:10 PM

AnimusRex

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism, because it is a merger of state and corporate power.

K.

I would agree; the notion that we have free market capitalism, separate and apart from government, is a myth; the larger of the corporations rely on the same government that they claim to wish to be free of; they aren't antagonistic towards it, they just want to turn its power to their own ends.

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