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RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/2/2009 7:05:35 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam

Being a history buff(and a major), I just like to toss things like this out there every now and then. Reminders are good. Speaking of which, has anyone seen the similarity to what's happening in the U.S. these days and post WW1 Russia?  It's damn chilling.

If you are a history buff you probably know that Jefferson lived in a time when primary social and economic value was given to small property owning producers, a pre-industrial agricultural society where the majority of immigrants came with contracts of indentured servitude or in the holds of ships plying the African slave trade. There were very few wage laborers comparatively and the way to a successful trade by hopeful artisans was to apprentice themselves often on the property of their master craftsmen.

We live now in a post industrial society where money is tranferred at the speed of electrons, satellites gather information from overhead, and nations possess nuclear weapons. I posit it is disingenuous to transfer the words of an agrarian statesman into contemporary times and ask us to accept them as eternal truths. The meaning of words are dependent upon their context and the context is shaped by the times. Times have changed. All you do is inflame people who miss the point of such careless transposition.

Vincent

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Underumam)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/2/2009 9:09:15 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		A Rex, well put.

And they succeed in doing it, at least lately. And then what happens ?

As far as their own ends go, they have been impressed upon us. Their mouth is writing checks that our ass can't cash.

T

(in reply to AnimusRex)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/2/2009 9:25:19 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"All you do is inflame people who miss the point of such careless transposition. "

I do not agree vince..... We inflame ourselves. Remain responsive and effective in that regard when it comes to external stimulii, you will eventually prevail. Those who react on soddy emotion are doomed.

Respond, do not react. Aeomebas react, so do chemicals, bodies of water, planes, boats and autos.

You can't inflame me even if you tried your hardest. This is a forum, and if you think I am lower than snakeshit and say so, why the hell would it bother me ?

Anyway, I found a way back to the thread. In a way the public acted, or reacted, but did not actually respond. This is not the best analogy but here goes ;

You got a kid choking on a piece of meat or something in a restaurant, one person wants to do the Heimlich maneuver and the other wants to give them a candy bar.

US Citizens took the candy bar, but it was disguised as a chicken in every pot.

T 

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/2/2009 9:44:46 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

"All you do is inflame people who miss the point of such careless transposition. "

I do not agree vince..... We inflame ourselves. Remain responsive and effective in that regard when it comes to external stimulii, you will eventually prevail. Those who react on soddy emotion are doomed.

Respond, do not react. Aeomebas react, so do chemicals, bodies of water, planes, boats and autos.

You can't inflame me even if you tried your hardest. This is a forum, and if you think I am lower than snakeshit and say so, why the hell would it bother me ?

Anyway, I found a way back to the thread. In a way the public acted, or reacted, but did not actually respond. This is not the best analogy but here goes ;

You got a kid choking on a piece of meat or something in a restaurant, one person wants to do the Heimlich maneuver and the other wants to give them a candy bar.

US Citizens took the candy bar, but it was disguised as a chicken in every pot.

T 

I understand your analogy. I think it might better be discussed in terms of recent socio-economic history rather than reverting back to words spoken in an agrarian society. This whole Founding Fathers said this or that is just regressive b... s... Words have meaning in the context of their times. If Liberty is an issue to be discussed it should be done within the present context of the meaning of the term. Liberty is 1801 was a construct favorable to propertied white men or hunters and trappers in the wild. It does not necessarily have the same meaning to auto factory workers today. So yes, the OP brought up an issue worth discussing but let's do it in a manner relevent to our times. Not only is government redefined but so is freedom. I do believe people out on the public square are more easily inflamed by appeals to patriotic figures of past times. I do not easily agree that external stimuli are not a factor.

Vincent

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/2/2009 10:07:15 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		I guess I disagree on the present context issue as well.

I believe that (with mistakes of course) that when people who know what they are doing go to write up documents, they put a bit of time and effort into their choice of words.

If that happened hundreds of years ago or yesterday, if the words have any significant meaning, should we not try to percieve them in the way they were intended ?

I would feel cheated if my words fell into someone's hands in the future and they were able and contorted my words into a completely different meaning. Wouldn't you ?

T

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/2/2009 10:20:23 PM   
Underumam


Posts: 485
Joined: 12/18/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam

Being a history buff(and a major), I just like to toss things like this out there every now and then. Reminders are good. Speaking of which, has anyone seen the similarity to what's happening in the U.S. these days and post WW1 Russia?  It's damn chilling.

If you are a history buff you probably know that Jefferson lived in a time when primary social and economic value was given to small property owning producers, a pre-industrial agricultural society where the majority of immigrants came with contracts of indentured servitude or in the holds of ships plying the African slave trade. There were very few wage laborers comparatively and the way to a successful trade by hopeful artisans was to apprentice themselves often on the property of their master craftsmen.

We live now in a post industrial society where money is tranferred at the speed of electrons, satellites gather information from overhead, and nations possess nuclear weapons. I posit it is disingenuous to transfer the words of an agrarian statesman into contemporary times and ask us to accept them as eternal truths. The meaning of words are dependent upon their context and the context is shaped by the times. Times have changed. All you do is inflame people who miss the point of such careless transposition.

Vincent


Well I am a history buff, and I know when Jefferson was alive. I see no need for your personal attacks nor to take off on these tangents regarding his statements about financiers. If you wish an intelligent conversation with me, stop trying to unseat me with your unwarranted insults. What is going on now, is obvious to practically every thinking person. Your so-called elected representatives no longer listen to you. Why must you and others continue to skirt the real issues and feign "everything's just fine"? How much longer will WE THE PEOPLE  allow this deplorable state of affairs to continue?

Actually, it's far too late to change much of anything. We will now experience what we must, there's no other way...

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/3/2009 6:33:01 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam

Being a history buff(and a major), I just like to toss things like this out there every now and then. Reminders are good. Speaking of which, has anyone seen the similarity to what's happening in the U.S. these days and post WW1 Russia?  It's damn chilling.

If you are a history buff you probably know that Jefferson lived in a time when primary social and economic value was given to small property owning producers, a pre-industrial agricultural society where the majority of immigrants came with contracts of indentured servitude or in the holds of ships plying the African slave trade. There were very few wage laborers comparatively and the way to a successful trade by hopeful artisans was to apprentice themselves often on the property of their master craftsmen.

We live now in a post industrial society where money is tranferred at the speed of electrons, satellites gather information from overhead, and nations possess nuclear weapons. I posit it is disingenuous to transfer the words of an agrarian statesman into contemporary times and ask us to accept them as eternal truths. The meaning of words are dependent upon their context and the context is shaped by the times. Times have changed. All you do is inflame people who miss the point of such careless transposition.

Vincent


Well I am a history buff, and I know when Jefferson was alive. I see no need for your personal attacks nor to take off on these tangents regarding his statements about financiers. If you wish an intelligent conversation with me, stop trying to unseat me with your unwarranted insults. What is going on now, is obvious to practically every thinking person. Your so-called elected representatives no longer listen to you. Why must you and others continue to skirt the real issues and feign "everything's just fine"? How much longer will WE THE PEOPLE  allow this deplorable state of affairs to continue?

Actually, it's far too late to change much of anything. We will now experience what we must, there's no other way...



I am puzzled by you're playing of the victim card here. I never denied you are a history buff. It was simply an introductory phrase giving you credit for knowledge that the context of Jefferson's times and language are different from our own. I wrote in Post #64 the following: "So yes, the OP brought up an issue worth discussing but let's do it in a manner relevent to our times."

So I ask you to specifically point out the "personal attacks" and "unwarrented insults" you feel defame your character. I hope you will reconsider after a careful re-reading and realise that no personal attack was intended but was a figment of your personal sensitivity. You have certainly had enough experience posting on these boards to know when serious personal attacks are made. My simple phrase was not in any way a personal attack. Sorry to say but your comment shows a bit of unwarrented hysteria on your part. Your comments are quite amazing.

Vincent

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Underumam)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/3/2009 7:08:02 AM   
Underumam


Posts: 485
Joined: 12/18/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam

Being a history buff(and a major), I just like to toss things like this out there every now and then. Reminders are good. Speaking of which, has anyone seen the similarity to what's happening in the U.S. these days and post WW1 Russia?  It's damn chilling.

If you are a history buff you probably know that Jefferson lived in a time when primary social and economic value was given to small property owning producers, a pre-industrial agricultural society where the majority of immigrants came with contracts of indentured servitude or in the holds of ships plying the African slave trade. There were very few wage laborers comparatively and the way to a successful trade by hopeful artisans was to apprentice themselves often on the property of their master craftsmen.

We live now in a post industrial society where money is tranferred at the speed of electrons, satellites gather information from overhead, and nations possess nuclear weapons. I posit it is disingenuous to transfer the words of an agrarian statesman into contemporary times and ask us to accept them as eternal truths. The meaning of words are dependent upon their context and the context is shaped by the times. Times have changed. All you do is inflame people who miss the point of such careless transposition.

Vincent


Well I am a history buff, and I know when Jefferson was alive. I see no need for your personal attacks nor to take off on these tangents regarding his statements about financiers. If you wish an intelligent conversation with me, stop trying to unseat me with your unwarranted insults. What is going on now, is obvious to practically every thinking person. Your so-called elected representatives no longer listen to you. Why must you and others continue to skirt the real issues and feign "everything's just fine"? How much longer will WE THE PEOPLE  allow this deplorable state of affairs to continue?

Actually, it's far too late to change much of anything. We will now experience what we must, there's no other way...



I am puzzled by you're playing of the victim card here. I never denied you are a history buff. It was simply an introductory phrase giving you credit for knowledge that the context of Jefferson's times and language are different from our own. I wrote in Post #64 the following: "So yes, the OP brought up an issue worth discussing but let's do it in a manner relevent to our times."

So I ask you to specifically point out the "personal attacks" and "unwarrented insults" you feel defame your character. I hope you will reconsider after a careful re-reading and realise that no personal attack was intended but was a figment of your personal sensitivity. You have certainly had enough experience posting on these boards to know when serious personal attacks are made. My simple phrase was not in any way a personal attack. Sorry to say but your comment shows a bit of unwarrented hysteria on your part. Your comments are quite amazing.

Vincent


ok-you said" IF you are a history buff" (questioned my honesty and character)

Saying "All you do is inflame," and that my use of verbiage is just "careless transposition"- are totally unwarranted. The general overtones of almost everything you've said to me are condescending and insulting. I simply posted a thread, you're the one who FIRST decided to take this route.

Your sig line "Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle." seems a false representation of your true intent at best.

I don't understand why you felt the need to conduct yourself in such a manner, and all your accomplishing is building a wall right through the middle of our conversation which will inevitably lead to lack of further discussion. Something I don't want. I will not participate in this stupidity any longer. If no personal attack was intended on your part, then I humbly apologize, but I don't believe this to be the case.

Jefferson's words were highly prophetic imo, and very relevant to the present time. Sure, things have changed, but the general wisdom he utilized seems timeless, and worth noting.


< Message edited by Underumam -- 12/3/2009 7:13:36 AM >

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/3/2009 9:58:03 AM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam


ok-you said" IF you are a history buff" (questioned my honesty and character)


Nope, you are misreading my intention and the innocent use of a preposition. Depends on your definition of "if" Don't mean to smile in disrespect here but it does sound a bit Clintonish to quibble over a small phrase.

quote:

Saying "All you do is inflame," and that my use of verbiage is just "careless transposition"- are totally unwarranted. The general overtones of almost everything you've said to me are condescending and insulting. I simply posted a thread, you're the one who FIRST decided to take this route.


You have the ability to read general overtones in a posted message? I find that quite remarkable. Also a bit of a dodge. I stand by what I said. .....

"it is disingenuous to transfer the words of an agrarian statesman into contemporary times and ask us to accept them as eternal truths. The meaning of words are dependent upon their context and the context is shaped by the times. Times have changed. All you do is inflame people who miss the point of such careless transposition."

Instead of offering a rebuttal you play the victim card. It was not an attack upon your character. It was an attack upon what you said. I am sorry you cannot see the difference. What you did with Jefferson in your post is a disingenuous variant of the "tea-bag" rhetoric we are subjected to in the public square. Can you debate why I am wrong? I am quite willing to hear your counter.

You might have some good points to make and some with which we may be in agreement. However, we will never get to debate them if you imagine personal assaults where none were offered everytime I take issue with what you say.


quote:

Your sig line "Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle." seems a false representation of your true intent at best.


~~smiles~~ It is a goal I strive toward. Sometimes I fall short.

quote:

If no personal attack was intended on your part, then I humbly apologize, but I don't believe this to be the case.


~smiles again~ There's that pesky "if" again. Obviously you intend no apology. You give with one hand and take back with the other. But that's quite alright. I never had any doubt you are a history buff nor did I ever intend to defame you. I suppose if one goes fishing around in the words of another long enough they will find some verbs and adjectives they might conjure as personal affront.

I did not ask for an apology. I do not feel the need for one from you. All I ask for is debate of the issues without all the personal drama.


quote:

Jefferson's words were highly prophetic imo, and very relevant to the present time. Sure, things have changed, but the general wisdom he utilized seems timeless, and worth noting.


I realize what your argument is. Jefferson's words are always worth noting, as were Washington's. Both of these men spoke of Liberty but were slave owners. A big hurdle there as far as their wisdom is concerned.

Jefferson opposed Hamilton's plan for a banking system but did not resist turning over Virginia's War debt obligation to the Federal Government.

These men spoke within the context of their times. We have our own problems today. There is some resemblence in the banking problem, I agree. But contemporary technology and institutions make the issue far more complicated.

You have raised an issue using words from an agrarian society and extoll the right to bear arms. But you did not proffer even the hint of a solution. Nor do you yet. What alternative do you suggest? Should we close down all the banks and allow the government to control the flow of money as a monopoly? What are your thoughts on the matter? Surely you can get past your personally felt injury to discuss the issues. Or are your injuries so deep as to render you infirm?

I assure you I do not seek your apology. Just your insights on the issues.

Vincent

< Message edited by vincentML -- 12/3/2009 10:03:08 AM >

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Underumam)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/3/2009 10:38:16 AM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		How something is said or stated has a lot to do with this little situation. The words we use while trying to prove a point and how we phrase something can be seen as an accusation. I know you both to some degree and I am very disappointed here. It isn't rocket science, polictical, historical or any other thing that I see. Your opinion's may be different and that is okay and a good healthy debate could come from them, but it is the words used that are inflamitory and the word inflamitory is inflamitory and to state that one is irresponsible and inflamitory is going to get a response. It doesn't matter what point you wish to make when your words are used as I have seen here. It just went downhill from there.

It's time it stopped.

Edited to add... so that I don't seem to be one sided... There were also words said that could be seen one way that really were another and no explaination of such until later which twisted things for some. So some error, intent of whatever, from every direction had a bit to do with all of this. I know I don't have any say here... only with one and he already said he wasn't continuing... but damn guys... I hate to see two men I respect going at one another because of how communication and a turn of a word can go sometimes.


< Message edited by Lockit -- 12/3/2009 10:44:42 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/3/2009 11:15:57 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam

What is going on now, is obvious to practically every thinking person. Your so-called elected representatives no longer listen to you. Why must you and others continue to skirt the real issues and feign "everything's just fine"? How much longer will WE THE PEOPLE  allow this deplorable state of affairs to continue?




....er........during what golden age did elected representatives listen to the electorate? All thats happened recently is that those on the right in the US are experiencing what those on the so-called left there have had for the last few years. A president whose tone is antipathetic to your ideals.
Suck it up buttercup, your turn will come back again..........but stop trying to suggest that the fall of US democracy is a recent event.

(in reply to Underumam)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/3/2009 12:47:58 PM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

It's time it stopped.





I am fine with that, Lockit. I have no desire for a personal argument. That is just a waste of time. Words and intentions are easily misunderstood on these boards. I would rather just debate the issues. Your intervention is welcomed. I have layed out some questions on the issue to the OP. If he cares to answer it would be well. If not, his choice.

Vincent

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Lockit)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/3/2009 1:01:05 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam

What is going on now, is obvious to practically every thinking person. Your so-called elected representatives no longer listen to you. Why must you and others continue to skirt the real issues and feign "everything's just fine"? How much longer will WE THE PEOPLE  allow this deplorable state of affairs to continue?




....er........during what golden age did elected representatives listen to the electorate? All thats happened recently is that those on the right in the US are experiencing what those on the so-called left there have had for the last few years. A president whose tone is antipathetic to your ideals.
Suck it up buttercup, your turn will come back again..........but stop trying to suggest that the fall of US democracy is a recent event.


As you may well know this Nation was never founded on Democracy. The word was confronted by great distaste and alarm by the Founders especially when the French Revolution erupted. We have always been a republic. WE THE PEOPLE are now 300 million in numbers. I just cannot fathom how we could be governed by a democratic form of government. There are just too many interests. The suggestion that I see implicit in the gun enthusiasts' "right to bear arms" can only lead us down the road to terror and chaos akin to that of the French Revolution. I agree with each man's right to defend himself with a gun if necessary but to couple that with an implied threat against government evokes chills.

vincent

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/3/2009 1:02:23 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		WTF? Why not? The government threatens us!

Ron

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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/3/2009 2:21:39 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

WTF? Why not? The government threatens us!

Ron


It also protects us from mob rule. If you seriously think this government is your enemy, you attack it, and it falls, you leave yourself open to the possibility of having many enemies on all sides. This band of brothers would become these bands of enemies. Tyranny by mob rule and by armed opportunists may be as bad or worse than tyranny by government.

Thomas Hobbs, an English Philosopher on government had an extreme point of view. He favored Monarchy.

quote:

Beginning from a mechanistic understanding of human beings and the passions, Hobbes postulates what life would be like without government, a condition which he calls the state of nature. In that state, each person would have a right, or license, to everything in the world. This inevitably leads to conflict, a "war of all against all" (bellum omnium contra omnes), and thus lives that are "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short" (xiii).

To escape this state of war, men in the state of nature accede to a social contract and establish a civil society.


I do not favor Monarchy, I hope that is obviously understood, but I think his description of the "state of nature" is a scary possiblity.

Personally, I have never felt threatened by any of the governments I have lived with, although I have been immensely disappointed and am at present truly pissed at the escalation of war by Obama.

So, in what way do you feel the government threatens you?

vincent

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/3/2009 2:30:20 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

WTF? Why not? The government threatens us!

Ron


It also protects us from mob rule. If you seriously think this government is your enemy, you attack it, and it falls, you leave yourself open to the possibility of having many enemies on all sides. This band of brothers would become these bands of enemies. Tyranny by mob rule and by armed opportunists may be as bad or worse than tyranny by government.

Thomas Hobbs, an English Philosopher on government had an extreme point of view. He favored Monarchy.

quote:

Beginning from a mechanistic understanding of human beings and the passions, Hobbes postulates what life would be like without government, a condition which he calls the state of nature. In that state, each person would have a right, or license, to everything in the world. This inevitably leads to conflict, a "war of all against all" (bellum omnium contra omnes), and thus lives that are "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short" (xiii).

To escape this state of war, men in the state of nature accede to a social contract and establish a civil society.


I do not favor Monarchy, I hope that is obviously understood, but I think his description of the "state of nature" is a scary possiblity.

Personally, I have never felt threatened by any of the governments I have lived with, although I have been immensely disappointed and am at present truly pissed at the escalation of war by Obama.

So, in what way do you feel the government threatens you?

vincent


Vince,

Hobbes and Locke and Kant and Wittgenstien aside for the moment.

The Declaration of Independence is the document that establishes the supremacy of the People over the Government and establishes the Right and the Duty of the People "to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security."

Our Constitution provides for as many protections as possible to ensure that the Government is subservient to the People and only exists for the purpose of serving the People. However, should these protections fail it is up to the People to rise up against the Government and to put the Government back in it's place.

Ben Frankenstien

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(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/3/2009 2:44:08 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


However, should these protections fail it is up to the People to rise up against the Government and to put the Government back in it's place.

Ben Frankenstien



...continual revolution eh?

Mao Tse Philo

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RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/3/2009 2:46:02 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		So with the " suck it up buttercup" comment, does that mean you support this method?

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

....er........during what golden age did elected representatives listen to the electorate? All thats happened recently is that those on the right in the US are experiencing what those on the so-called left there have had for the last few years. A president whose tone is antipathetic to your ideals.
Suck it up buttercup, your turn will come back again..........but stop trying to suggest that the fall of US democracy is a recent event.


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/3/2009 2:48:02 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Actually some words and ideals live throughout context and the times that shaped it. Using the essence of what Jefferson said, it should live on and is pretty accurate. Just like the essence of the Art of War lives on a few thousand years after it was written.


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
The meaning of words are dependent upon their context and the context is shaped by the times. Times have changed. All you do is inflame people who miss the point of such careless transposition.

Vincent


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/3/2009 2:49:42 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


However, should these protections fail it is up to the People to rise up against the Government and to put the Government back in it's place.

Ben Frankenstien



...continual revolution eh?

Mao Tse Philo



They are talking about somebodies money who I know, goddammit!!!!

Ben Stein's Money

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to philosophy)
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