quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

So with the " suck it up buttercup" comment, does that mean you support this method?

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

....er........during what golden age did elected representatives listen to the electorate? All thats happened recently is that those on the right in the US are experiencing what those on the so-called left there have had for the last few years. A president whose tone is antipathetic to your ideals.
Suck it up buttercup, your turn will come back again..........but stop trying to suggest that the fall of US democracy is a recent event.

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

So with the " suck it up buttercup" comment, does that mean you support this method?

....do i support a form of governence that is anti-democratic? Not really, but that condition is nothing new. It applies equally to both sides of the US political divide. So the idea that somehow Obama is solely to blame for dismantling some idealised US democratic golden age is clearly rubbish.

quote:


If nothing changes, then it's a continual see-saw. Sometimes those on the right wing will be happy, sometimes it's the left. Unless anyone is talking seriously radical reform (and that means taking a long, hard look at the Constitution) then they probably ought to just suck it up. Anything except a radical overhaul is just moving the deckchairs on the Titanic, at best.

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

Fair enough, both to you and Orion.

This makes me wonder more about the US constitution and the founding fathers.

Were they intellectual colossi the likes of which have never been seen again? Is the document they penned really the last word on how to create a free society? Is the constitution now more of a liability than a help?

Jefferson can be quoted on a number of subjects saying highly useful things. So can Mao Tse Tung. So can Lewis Black. So can Joseph Stalin. So can Denis Healy.

Are the founding fathers (and their great work) really beyond criticism?

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

Well, that sort of backs up my point. That the US constitution, as currently ordered, is not the guiding force for good that it may have been in the past.

Shakespeare, in Merchant, talks of justice as being indivisible, that while a system treats a single individual unjustly it can't be considered a just society. The constitution (like justice) either applies to all, or to none. To try to justify some sort of half way house is ethically insupportable.

Yet, thats what we have nowadays. A hodge podge of exceptions. Some driven by the Federal government, some by the States. (BTW, you missed out the Patriot Act in your list of consitutional exceptions).

Isn't it time to put the constitution away and start over?

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
Are the founding fathers (and their great work) really beyond criticism?

quote:

Now, my reason for introducing this topic was/is not to ridicule or belittle anyone for any reason, but merely to open a discussion about what's going on right under our collective noses.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

Jefferson clearly understood the power of private central banks, and accurately foretold the future of such a monetary system.

quote:

Now, my reason for introducing this topic was/is not to ridicule or belittle anyone for any reason, but merely to open a discussion about what's going on right under our collective noses.

I truly applaud your effort. However, for the most part, your effort will not connect with the prevalent right vs. left paradigm that exists here and on most other boards. If you take Jefferson's position and try to run with it, you will be largely ignored. Keep it up, and you'll eventually be dismissed as a conspiracy kook by the self-appointed guardians of the status-quo.

There are 5 pages of posts here, almost none of them addressing the meat of your OP. We see mostly deflections and attacks on your OP's weaknesses (though AnimusRex was correct on his point).

The left wants to believe that if they can somehow overcome the right, everything will be just dandy. The right wants to believe that if they can somehow overcome the left, all will be well.

Termy is correct in post #2. You can't fight indoctrination with simple facts. The masses are behaving exactly as their masters wish them to behave. Get used to it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam

yes. I believe it is too late.  *sadly*

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam

yes. I believe it is too late.  *sadly*

May I suggest that you not guage success by responses on public boards?

Try to recognize that most people cling on dearly to their long-held core beliefs. They are not nearly as open-minded as they believe themselves to be. Whether the topic be politics or religion, the dynamic is the same. It's very difficult for the average person to admit to themselves that they may have been holding false beliefs all of their adult lives. No one wants to think that they've been duped! It's more self-preserving to the ego to reject potential threats to long-held beliefs, and adhere to the status-quo. Knee-jerk responses to any threat to long-held beliefs will either be fight or flight.

People say they want changes, but what most people really want are more band-aids covering the symptoms created by larger problems of which the people do not address.

May I further suggest that you focus your primary efforts on personal one-on-one communications with people you know? If you are able to enlighten just 3 and they enlighten just 3, and so on... you will have made an impact.

In the end, the PTB only have the power that we give them, and we're primarily under their control due to our own fear and greed. Just imagine for a moment, the think tanks that the elite have had access to with their concentrated wealth over the decades, and it becomes easy to understand how they've come to indoctrinate the masses.

Don't give up the fight.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Personally, I have never felt threatened by any of the governments I have lived with, although I have been immensely disappointed and am at present truly pissed at the escalation of war by Obama.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Personally, I have never felt threatened by any of the governments I have lived with, although I have been immensely disappointed and am at present truly pissed at the escalation of war by Obama.

Immensely disappointed and pissed off huh?

Why did this come as a surprise to you?

It was part of his campaign platform.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam


The patriot act 1,2,3 are showing their teeth as we speak. Many have absolutely no idea what all they entail, but when their children are removed from school and herded off to a "safe" location without their knowing where, they will finally get it. But it will be too late, and shortly thereafter, the jack-boots will be kicking their door in and whisking the adults off to a FEMA camp where they will enjoy a long life of slavery and servitude performing such tasks as toxic/nuclear waste cleanup. (damn- we shoulda never let them close our miltary bases) Oh, and just for an added thrill, the arresting jack-boots won't even be speaking English..lol.