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RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/3/2009 7:10:44 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam

CHANGE YOU CAN COUNT ON!  lol.....



Yes, I guess it is, without the lol.

He's doing what he said he was going to do before he was elected, yet both his supporters and opponents are suddenly shocked and surprised.

(in reply to Underumam)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/3/2009 7:53:51 PM   
Underumam


Posts: 485
Joined: 12/18/2008
Status: offline 		Like I said, I don't support either side. My life has remained the same or gotten worse no matter who was in office. I honestly believe that anyone who gets elected does so because they will play ball with the big boys...It's a disgrace...

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/3/2009 8:00:03 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Personally, I have never felt threatened by any of the governments I have lived with, although I have been immensely disappointed and am at present truly pissed at the escalation of war by Obama.


Immensely disappointed and pissed off huh?

Why did this come as a surprise to you?


It was part of his campaign platform.





You are absolutely correct. It was not a surprise. I did not say it was a surprise. Don't assign words to me that I did not use.

The alternative was even more a war hawk. I knew it was coming. It was not the reason for my vote, however.

Vincent



_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/3/2009 9:23:10 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


Vince,

Hobbes and Locke and Kant and Wittgenstien aside for the moment.

The Declaration of Independence is the document that establishes the supremacy of the People over the Government and establishes the Right and the Duty of the People to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security."


Ron,

The Declaration was written by Representatives of the Colonies one year after the War had begun and was directed at the behaviors of George III and severed ties with the British Monarchy, asserting

"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it and to institute a new government. laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

I would be hard pressed to believe our government "envinces a design to reduce us under absolute Despotism." That is the condition established in the Declaration as a precursor to the right and duty to throw off such a government. Hating Despotism is not the same as being in disagreement with the current elected government.

I do not believe that condition (Despotism) is anywhere near to be seen on the horizon. We have just had a massive popular election. That was the throwing off of a government by non-revolutionary means.

So, what's the beef? I would suggest that people are having difficulty dealing with the new complexities of post industrial society. I personally believe our constant war-making adds to our anxiety. And I think a big issue is the shrinking middle class and the loss of good paying manufacturing jobs to out-sourcing and to new technology. There is the distrust of the Financial Industry. Middle Class folks do not feel they are getting a fair shake. They think the fix is in. I agree with that. There are other major concerns as well. But, I do not think they add up to a design for Despotism and justification for revolution.

The OP juxtaposed these two statements in his post, and these worry me:

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

and

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

He did not instruct us on the context of Jefferson's quotes. I do not know from the OP whether Jefferson was talking about the new American government or the British government he wished to depose. Or the French Monarchy that was under attack.

Without that context I am left to speculate on the possibility that the OP was suggesting an uprising against the present US Government. Maybe he wasn't. Only he can clarify that. I do not believe the Declaration justifies such action. Can you point out evidence of a design toward absolute Despotism? Troubles we've got. Nothing new there. But absolute Despotism? The same charge was leveled against Frank Roosevelt in similar times as these.

quote:

Our Constitution provides for as many protections as possible to ensure that the Government is subservient to the People and only exists for the purpose of serving the People. However, should these protections fail it is up to the People to rise up against the Government and to put the Government back in it's place.


If this is a quote from Ben Franklin, I am not aware of it. However, accepting that it is. where have the protections failed and by what method should the people rise up against the government?

Vincent



_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/3/2009 10:05:05 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Really? How much are you willing to stand by that? Willing to make a bet of some kind? He has done exactly as he said he would do? He has been the type of President exactly as he said he would be? He has brought the change exactly as he said in his campaign?

Maybe you might want to check some of his quotes first.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam

CHANGE YOU CAN COUNT ON!  lol.....



Yes, I guess it is, without the lol.

He's doing what he said he was going to do before he was elected, yet both his supporters and opponents are suddenly shocked and surprised.



_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/3/2009 10:16:36 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		And just which President would you point out as having done exactly as he said he would pre-oath.Situations change ...reality of actually governing as opposed to running for office tempers some goals.
Has he delivered on everything...no.Yet he's only been in office just short of a year.Would I have the pace be quicker....Gitmo closed...Iraq in the rear veiw mirror...yes.
Still satisfied with my vote though.

< Message edited by slvemike4u -- 12/3/2009 10:21:34 PM >

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/3/2009 10:17:50 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		"All obstructions to the execution of the Laws, all combinations and associations, under whatever plausible character, with the real design to direct, control, counteract, or awe the regular deliberation and action of the constituted authorities, are destructive of this fundamental principle, and of fatal tendency. They [political parties] serve to organize faction, to give it an artificial and extraordinary force; to put, in the place of the delegated will of the nation, the will of a party, often a small but artful and enterprising minority of the community; and, according to the alternate triumphs of different parties, to make the public administration the mirror of the ill-concerted and incongruous projects of faction, rather than the organ of consistent and wholesome plans digested by common counsels, and modified by mutual interests.

"However combinations or associations of the above description may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely, in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people, and to usurp for themselves the reins of government; destroying afterwards the very engines, which have lifted them to unjust dominion."

"The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries, which result, gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of Public Liberty."

--George Washington, 1796

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/3/2009 10:28:45 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Yep.old George detested factions(political parties) even as he watched his own cabinet fall prey to the very evil he preached against.Hamilton  on one side Jefferson  on the other.With Adams(his vice -president) siding with Hamilton's faction....and Madison(I beleive gov.of Virginia at the time) aligned with Jefferson....and thus the American party system was born.
Though in hindsight,despite Washinton's entreatys against such an occurrence weren't political parties an inevitability?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/3/2009 10:32:45 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

despite Washinton's entreatys against such an occurrence weren't political parties an inevitability?


Probably so.

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/3/2009 11:02:36 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		As much as we like to think things have gotten more contentious and polarized recently...a quick look at the charges and counter charges leveled by the two sides during Washingtons first term is enough to disabuse one of that opinion.
It is hard to imagine any exchange of today being more bitter that what Hamilton and Jefferson hurled back and forth at each other.
Hell ,both sides started and employed their own newspapers/publishers(biased press...sound familiar?) wrote many an artical under pen names ripping the other to shreds.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/3/2009 11:05:25 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		FR

How about the guy with the key in the jar who said to not "a lender or borrower be" ?

T

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/4/2009 1:41:29 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Personally, I have never felt threatened by any of the governments I have lived with, although I have been immensely disappointed and am at present truly pissed at the escalation of war by Obama.


Immensely disappointed and pissed off huh?

Why did this come as a surprise to you?


It was part of his campaign platform.





You are absolutely correct. It was not a surprise. I did not say it was a surprise. Don't assign words to me that I did not use.

The alternative was even more a war hawk. I knew it was coming. It was not the reason for my vote, however.

Vincent


Uh, no you did not in those specific words, but unless my reading comprehension skills have suddenly failed me being "immensely disappointed" seems to suggest you were expecting something different.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/4/2009 1:51:07 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Really? How much are you willing to stand by that? Willing to make a bet of some kind? He has done exactly as he said he would do? He has been the type of President exactly as he said he would be? He has brought the change exactly as he said in his campaign?

Maybe you might want to check some of his quotes first.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam

CHANGE YOU CAN COUNT ON!  lol.....



Yes, I guess it is, without the lol.

He's doing what he said he was going to do before he was elected, yet both his supporters and opponents are suddenly shocked and surprised.




You are reading too much into it.

It was directed specifically at the Afghanistan situation.

I'm not claiming he has stuck to every campaign promise.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/4/2009 4:50:46 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Personally, I have never felt threatened by any of the governments I have lived with, although I have been immensely disappointed and am at present truly pissed at the escalation of war by Obama.


Immensely disappointed and pissed off huh?

Why did this come as a surprise to you?


It was part of his campaign platform.





You are absolutely correct. It was not a surprise. I did not say it was a surprise. Don't assign words to me that I did not use.

The alternative was even more a war hawk. I knew it was coming. It was not the reason for my vote, however.

Vincent


Uh, no you did not in those specific words, but unless my reading comprehension skills have suddenly failed me being "immensely disappointed" seems to suggest you were expecting something different.



I was hoping that once having beaten back the war hawks (Hillary and John) he would modify his position. Presidents have been known to change their pov after their election, most notably in the other direction unfortunately. I held out faint hope he would resist a troop build up as did JFK in Vietnam. My hopes lead to my disappointment. I still maintain the alternative choice would have been worse. McCain's loose talk on Iran was a big negative for me. And Hillary had to prove she is as tough as the guys. But it is sad to see Obama potentially going down the road Johnson took in Vietnam. If he does his historical presidency will be stained.

The biggest negative was the financial disaster which McCain denied and then panicked over. Hardly his finest moment. Like a deer caught in the headlights of an oncoming train. Strike that! The biggest negative was eight futile years of George W Bush.

Vincent

< Message edited by vincentML -- 12/4/2009 5:05:47 AM >

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/4/2009 4:53:56 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

As much as we like to think things have gotten more contentious and polarized recently...a quick look at the charges and counter charges leveled by the two sides during Washingtons first term is enough to disabuse one of that opinion.
It is hard to imagine any exchange of today being more bitter that what Hamilton and Jefferson hurled back and forth at each other.
Hell ,both sides started and employed their own newspapers/publishers(biased press...sound familiar?) wrote many an artical under pen names ripping the other to shreds.


And one of them ended dead of a pistol fired in a political dual on the west bank of the Hudson River. They were a bit contentious back in those days.

vincent

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/4/2009 5:17:54 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		None, and that has been my point all along. Obama said he was going to be different, a change from those before, and he hasn't been. I am not looking so much for delivery on promises made, but on being a different kind of politician. I understand the reality of things, and that sometimes with more inside information as President, you may have to change what you promised. I believe Afghanistan should have been one of those.

I also was pointing out that someone was eluding to Obama fulfilling all of his promises, when in fact he has not, and most polticians do not. Ever wonder why politicians do that? Usually because we are willing to excuse them of that behavior.


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

And just which President would you point out as having done exactly as he said he would pre-oath.Situations change ...reality of actually governing as opposed to running for office tempers some goals.
Has he delivered on everything...no.Yet he's only been in office just short of a year.Would I have the pace be quicker....Gitmo closed...Iraq in the rear veiw mirror...yes.
Still satisfied with my vote though.


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/4/2009 6:19:17 AM   
Lucienne


Posts: 1175
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline
quote:

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government


The context for this quote is that it is not a quote from Thomas Jefferson.

Click here.

The "government fear the people" quote is also not Jefferson. It's actually been sourced to a 1914 debate about socialism. Here.

The above quoted source found the first instances of these quotes being attributed to Jefferson in 1993 and 1994. I'm guessing it was part of the NRA's contribution to the republican revolution.

What's odd and stupid about inventing and/or misattributing quotes like this is that the United States was a country formed by the violent overthrow of the existing government. It really isn't much of a stretch to believe that the Founders thought that first line defense against intruders and usurpers was important to the citizenry.

Without getting into a lengthy 2nd Amendment debate, it's certainly my read of the history that part of its purpose was the idea that an armed citizenry would serve as a defense to an over-reaching government. (No, "militias" did not mean National Guard, I can't believe people make that argument with a straight face). Having accepted that, the idea that today's armed citizenry serves as a disincentive to an overreaching government is quite laughable.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/4/2009 8:51:14 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

quote:

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government


The context for this quote is that it is not a quote from Thomas Jefferson.

Click here.

The "government fear the people" quote is also not Jefferson. It's actually been sourced to a 1914 debate about socialism. Here.

The above quoted source found the first instances of these quotes being attributed to Jefferson in 1993 and 1994. I'm guessing it was part of the NRA's contribution to the republican revolution.

What's odd and stupid about inventing and/or misattributing quotes like this is that the United States was a country formed by the violent overthrow of the existing government. It really isn't much of a stretch to believe that the Founders thought that first line defense against intruders and usurpers was important to the citizenry.

Without getting into a lengthy 2nd Amendment debate, it's certainly my read of the history that part of its purpose was the idea that an armed citizenry would serve as a defense to an over-reaching government. (No, "militias" did not mean National Guard, I can't believe people make that argument with a straight face). Having accepted that, the idea that today's armed citizenry serves as a disincentive to an overreaching government is quite laughable.



OMG, Lucienne..... excellent bit of research. Thank you. I am embarrassed that I accepted the OP's quotes on his good faith assertion that he is a student of history. I believe he is, but even students make mistakes.

Well done, Lucienne, well done.

vincent

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Lucienne)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/4/2009 8:52:34 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		well, he said student, not professor.

Talleyrand

but, if he'da been right, he'da had us.....LOL. It is the sorta shit, trips a feller up.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 12/4/2009 8:53:45 AM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Thomas Jefferson said THIS would happen - 12/4/2009 8:58:04 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

well, he said student, not professor.

Talleyrand

but, if he'da been right, he'da had us.....LOL. It is the sorta shit, trips a feller up.


It is amusing in a sad sort of way. Jeeeez, nevermind!

Vincent

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 120
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