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RE: Sex vs Love - 12/10/2009 8:24:30 PM

greeneyedreamer

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We want love and sex... why? because it's simply the best thing on earth when it is there. It's shallow and meaningless and you may as well get yourself off if you just have sex. Who needs to be bothered? It's also very much a higher state of mind to have them both. Sorry.. I find one without the other a tad immature and very adolescent when sought for long periods of time.

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Post #: 61

RE: Sex vs Love - 12/10/2009 8:26:02 PM

ambiguitydefined

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quote:

it's a lot easier for men, especially heterosexual men, to separate sex and love

just a question.....that part about heterosexual men?

i have to disagree.

if anybody on the face of the planet can seperate sex and love, its a gay man.

(in reply to Sfortzando)

Post #: 62

RE: Sex vs Love - 12/10/2009 8:40:42 PM

willowspirit

Posts: 164
Joined: 6/20/2005
From: U.S.A.-Minnesota
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A couple of people made general comments about males and females being "wired" differently.

Expanding on that from a social anthropology viewpoint -- and "Survival of the Species" -- men were hard wired to procreate without any entanglements of LOVE. Heck, procreation didn't even require the male to be good at it. All he had to do is seek his own climax and cum in (or near) a female's vagina. The faster the better... more efficient, you know...

Women, on the other hand (for the species to survive) were hard-wired to seek some sense of permanence, and getting the loyal protection (Love?) of a good Provider. Pregnancy, childbirth and taking care of the young didn't work very well without some loyalty of the good hunter -- hopefully a male of status in the community.

Seeing as how primitive men probably had lots of sex with many females, and were likely lousy at giving the females' sexual satisfaction the least bit of thought, females competed with each other in order to get the best furs, the choicest parts of the fresh kill, the warmest and driest ares of the cave, etc...

For females, enjoying sex wasn't a requirement for the species to survive -- neither from the male's or female's point of view. In fact, there was even a built-in implication for females needing to lie and fake sexual enjoyment in order to become favored for extra care. Which most likely led to a re-enforcement of males not feeling responsible about females enjoying the act. (Lousy lovers !)

Sadly, the majority of young women I have met in college and school clubs are having sex but not many are having even close to the quality of orgasms I have at this point in my life. Funny, but their descriptions of 'what a climax is' are really whimpy.

In our Human Sexuality class almost ALL of the girls agreed that they had better climaxes with a vibrator, and that it took lots of time with the same boyfriend before they could climax. Most said that sex with a guy who wasn't interested in having sex as just part of an over-all emotional relationship, weren't very interested in her getting her needs met. [The class survey was private. Another interesting point -- not many girls used dildos, and the girls rarely bought the vibrator into the relationship with their boyfriend.]

The good news was that the more frequently they had sex with the same person-of-choice the better the sex became.

YES -- I know this is a limited survey. The girls were mainly between 18 and 24 years old.

As for the social anthropology -- generalizations don't allow much room for the exceptions. I know this.

(in reply to MasterIronwood)

Post #: 63

RE: Sex vs Love - 12/10/2009 8:40:55 PM

sweetsub1957

Posts: 2201
Joined: 4/28/2009
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~Fast Reply~
I have to say, I've thoroughly enjoyed reading all the answers and discussion on this topic. I'm one of those women who won't submit to Someone unless I'm in a relationship with Them. No one casually flogs me. I could have sex w/o love, but I won't. Why should I? I did it many, many years ago in my past, but I've come to realize that sex without love is like eating at a drive-through restaurant compared to a home-cooked meal by Grandma. There's something definitely lacking. For me anyway, but I'm not knocking those who like it.

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Post #: 64

RE: Sex vs Love - 12/10/2009 8:47:02 PM

lucylucy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willowspirit

In our Human Sexuality class almost ALL of the girls agreed that they had better climaxes with a vibrator, and that it took lots of time with the same boyfriend before they could climax. Most said that sex with a guy who wasn't interested in having sex as just part of an over-all emotional relationship, weren't very interested in her getting her needs met. [The class survey was private. Another interesting point -- not many girls used dildos, and the girls rarely bought the vibrator into the relationship with their boyfriend.]

When sex and love and vibrators are combined . . . oh, my.

_____________________________

“There are those who give with joy, & that joy is their reward.” Gibran / "Those who are willing to be vulnerable move among mysteries." Roethke / "Let the beauty we love be what we do. There are hundreds of ways to kneel & kiss the ground." Rumi

(in reply to willowspirit)

Post #: 65

RE: Sex vs Love - 12/10/2009 8:47:52 PM

sexyred1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: StolenBiFaeries

Ok, I have never once had the issue of confusing sex & love, ever; & yes I was born & always have been female. Now, just because I do not confuse the two, does NOT mean that I am not extremely selective in who I take to my bed. You can have sex without love & still not be promiscuous, slutty, etc, etc. Sex can be great even without love. Yes, having an emotional attachment to someone enhances the experience, but that doesn't mean that sex without love is a bad thing at all. I suffer no regrets from my decisions about sex whatsoever, nor do I feel any lack of fulfillment in my experiences, which is possibly due to my pickiness regarding sexual partners.

So to ask a question that assumes that all women who can separate sex & love will be sluts, isn't really logical. Honestly, I feel the original question is just following sexist stereotypes. I know plenty of women who do not confuse sex & love, and not one of them would be considered slutty or promiscuous.

I do agree with Darcy though, many men do assume that a woman is falling in love with them just because they compliment them after sex. Why can't men just take a compliment without assuming other intent? Now that would be a great topic. LOL.

Also, just because a woman turns you down for casual sex does not mean that shes a prude or that she has to be in love in order to have sex, it just means that she doesn't want casual sex with YOU.

She just wrote what I was about to post. One thing I would like to add to the discussion is that it boggles the mind that so many men actually believe that women are incapable of separating sex/love. I think they are in denial and need to believe that because they are not getting their casual sex needs met.

The other issue I am shocked to encounter time and time again is the lack of patience and finesse that some men show when first encountering a woman. Even my 77 year old father said, "what the hell is wrong with men today? don't they realize that you women want sex just as much as they do, but would like to wait a bit, get to see if the chemistry is solid and want to be treated as more than a receptacle"

No kidding, dad is totally cool.

(in reply to StolenBiFaeries)

Post #: 66

RE: Sex vs Love - 12/10/2009 8:55:22 PM

AquaticSub

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Joined: 12/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: greeneyedreamer

We want love and sex... why? because it's simply the best thing on earth when it is there. It's shallow and meaningless and you may as well get yourself off if you just have sex. Who needs to be bothered? It's also very much a higher state of mind to have them both. Sorry.. I find one without the other a tad immature and very adolescent when sought for long periods of time.

Have to say... I completely disagree. I'd much rather fuck a guy I'm not in love with than get myself off without a partner. It's not meaningless - I tend to find masturbation meaningless. It's just not the same as love however that doesn't make it immature. It's not bad. It's just different.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 12/10/2009 8:57:26 PM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to greeneyedreamer)

Post #: 67

RE: Sex vs Love - 12/10/2009 9:02:34 PM

KneelforAnne

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Joined: 6/14/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

I can separate it. I choose not to do so. Sex has always been great for me, but dislike the emptiness I feel when fucking someone I am not willing to be emotionally attached to, note that I said "willing to be".

I'm not trying to be argumentative...I am really wondering...because I feel like this myself. Also, this isn't just aimed to you Missokyst, many posters have said similar things.

My thoughts:

If you feel this way afterwards, can you really separate it?

Ideally, wouldn't you feel great after a wonderful session of mind-melting sex instead of empty?

I can only tell you about my experience, and for me the two are deeply entwined with one another. Anyone I had an ongoing sexual interaction with...I develop feelings for.

Is this internalized social pressure to fit a stereotype? Maybe. Regardless, it's how I feel.

In the past I have attempted to separate the two, but that isn’t in my nature and seems only to drive a wedge between my mind and my body.

The more I tried to be something I wasn’t the harder it was to be happy.

My theory is that if you (or I) could really separate sex and emotions then we wouldn't feel "empty" after sex with someone we're not emotionally tied to.

Just my thought...

**ETA**

Personally, I’m tired of men trying to convince me that there is something wrong with me because I get attached with people I sleep with.

It doesn’t make me “needy“ or “high maintenance”.

I hate to say what is “right” and what is “natural” …

But for ME it is natural and right to develop strong feelings for someone I let inside my body because it is attached to my mind and heart.

I’m tired of trying to fight that because it’s inconvenient to whoever wants to screw me.

**End of Rant**

**Edited for spelling**

< Message edited by KneelforAnne -- 12/10/2009 9:25:06 PM >

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BDSM is what two people at the moment decide it should be...
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(in reply to Missokyst)

Post #: 68

RE: Sex vs Love - 12/10/2009 9:06:29 PM

AquaticSub

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I know this probably wasn't directed at me but your post made me wonder... is there a difference between seperating sex and love and being unfulfilled by sex without love? I think there is, though I can be fulfilled be sex without love and sex with it. The different types just fill different needs.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to KneelforAnne)

Post #: 69

RE: Sex vs Love - 12/10/2009 9:11:30 PM

breatheasone

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KneelforAnne
My theory is that if you (or I) could really separate sex and emotions then we wouldn't feel "empty" after sex with someone we're not emotionally tied to.

Just a thought...

Well aren't you right-on.....

_____________________________

Romans 10:13,For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
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(in reply to KneelforAnne)

Post #: 70

RE: Sex vs Love - 12/10/2009 9:35:32 PM

KneelforAnne

Posts: 1011
Joined: 6/14/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

I know this probably wasn't directed at me but your post made me wonder... is there a difference between seperating sex and love and being unfulfilled by sex without love? I think there is, though I can be fulfilled be sex without love and sex with it. The different types just fill different needs.

Is there a difference between separating love and sex and not being fulfilled with loveless sex?

I don't know.

I can be physically fulfilled, fleetingly, by loveless sex. It does not last, there is no bonding, no warm glow and most of the time I don't want to touch and cuddle that person afterwards. It was sex and nothing else, and I am quite careful to keep those two separate when the "relationship" starts and is clearly going to end with just sex.

I am more fulfilled by masturbation, as it does not leave me feeling icky afterwards.

The separation of love and sex--in my opinion, FOR ME-- should not exist. It was a painful, confusing time when I tried to divorce the two. I couldn't understand why I couldn't be a calm confident single woman that was satisfied with just a physical relationship with someone I found attractive. But...as hard as I tried and as much as I tried to convince myself...I could not.

To some extent I still don't understand (which annoys me) but the only reason I can come up with now is that I'm not wired that way, or it just does not fulfill a need that I have.

What is that need?

I have no idea, and I'm very sleepy now.

Please speculate away and let me know what you think?

LOL

_____________________________

~Posting now as ForgetMeKnots~

BDSM is what two people at the moment decide it should be...
--CatdeMedici

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Pimpette
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(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 71

RE: Sex vs Love - 12/10/2009 9:39:22 PM

breatheasone

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KneelforAnne
I am more fulfilled by masturbation, as it does not leave me feeling icky afterwards.

Wow....this really struck a chord with me....

_____________________________

Romans 10:13,For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
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(in reply to KneelforAnne)

Post #: 72

RE: Sex vs Love - 12/10/2009 9:49:29 PM

Missokyst

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Yeah I can say I can. I dated one guy for 3 yrs because he was the best fuck I had met in my early 20's. He was dumb as a stump, not my type, physically, but man.. he knew how to use his tool.

When I met someone who made everyone else vanish into nothing, I stopped seeing Mike, who I am sure didn't miss me any more than I missed him.

He was a great fuck, but not someone I wanted to bring in to meet family and friends. It wasn't until I met Steve that sex became more than just sensation. Even when the sex was not great, it was still better.

The other.. empty calories. Fine for when you are young, but when you get older you need those calories to count, not just put on mass.

(in reply to KneelforAnne)

Post #: 73

RE: Sex vs Love - 12/10/2009 9:56:49 PM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KneelforAnne

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

I know this probably wasn't directed at me but your post made me wonder... is there a difference between seperating sex and love and being unfulfilled by sex without love? I think there is, though I can be fulfilled be sex without love and sex with it. The different types just fill different needs.

Is there a difference between separating love and sex and not being fulfilled with loveless sex?

I don't know.

I can be physically fulfilled, fleetingly, by loveless sex. It does not last, there is no bonding, no warm glow and most of the time I don't want to touch and cuddle that person afterwards. It was sex and nothing else, and I am quite careful to keep those two separate when the "relationship" starts and is clearly going to end with just sex.

I am more fulfilled by masturbation, as it does not leave me feeling icky afterwards.

You see... this may be where I differ from you and perhaps other women in the thread. I do not feel icky after loveless sex. After masturbation, while I enjoy it, I feel unfulfilled. It's not enough for me.

quote:

The separation of love and sex--in my opinion, FOR ME-- should not exist. It was a painful, confusing time when I tried to divorce the two. I couldn't understand why I couldn't be a calm confident single woman that was satisfied with just a physical relationship with someone I found attractive. But...as hard as I tried and as much as I tried to convince myself...I could not.

Should and should not are tricky phrases. Perhaps you are not suited to sex without love but that isn't to say that there shouldn't be a difference. After all, if it doesn't suit you, than there should be a difference because one fulfills you and one doesn't.

quote:

To some extent I still don't understand (which annoys me) but the only reason I can come up with now is that I'm not wired that way, or it just does not fulfill a need that I have.

What is that need?

I have no idea, and I'm very sleepy now.

Please speculate away and let me know what you think?

LOL

My speculation? People are wired differently and that wiring may/will change at different stages of their life. I do not find real joy in masturbation. It's a way to idle away the time but I do not achieve what I want with it. Much better, for me, to find a man and go "slap a condom on it, I'm going to fuck you and get off".

Is one way "better"? Fuck if I know. I dunno even know if there is a better. Maybe it's just the way that works.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to KneelforAnne)

Post #: 74

RE: Sex vs Love - 12/10/2009 10:00:35 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

~ Fast Perspective ~

Interesting...

Sex requiring love and/or emotional attachment; while WIITWD can be casual and cavalier? A flogger is a flogger, and it doesn't matter who's holding it as long as that need gets satiated? The only problem with doing that is you never know. You may not be having 'sex'; but your partner may be because for him/her the emotional/mental intercourse of S&M, D/s, or any 'scene' is their version of 'sex'.

It appears that many have a sub-program running from their religion, the 'sex-talk' they got from their guardians, or your 'best friend' on the streets; "sex is to be shared with someone 'special'!" Requiring an emotional attachment serves that requirement. Few if any 'sex-talk' sources get into WIITWD so in order to participate in that - nobody 'special' is needed, only a facilitator.

At least there is a reason on the sex side of the equation. Pragmatically, it exists for procreation. Nature makes it fun to get you do do it again, and again, and again. (Or not as in the cases disclosed about ex-spouses.) SM serves no other purpose but fun. Maybe those that disconnect with emotionless S&M can relate on those terms to those capable of emotionless sex.

Personally WIITWD IS sex; interspersed with periodic climaxes and recovery. Without emotions, I wouldn't, and don't do it. As has been said - I find those times I tried to do it without emotional involvement was like beating a blow-up doll.

A reply to the fast perspective.

My position on this has to do with certain agreements between MP and Myself. As I think you are aware, I do engage in casual play, but not casual sex. This is because of the terms under which we run our relationship. That, in itself, I know would be enough for you without further explanation, but I will comment further.

Since I play casually with both males and females, I'll give you half of one of your points. In most circumstances, I couldn't tell you if the female bottoms that I have played with have a sexual overtone to the play or not. With males, the results of a sexual release for someone that I am not touching in a physically sexual way are more obvious. I can't control whether or not someone is having sexual thoughts about Me during a scene anymore than I know if someone had a sexual fantasy about Me and chose to masturbate to it.

Absolutely, the basis is fun in any expression of My sadism. (Well, fun for Me at the very least.) With luck, it is some form of fun for the bottom as well.

It's honestly not that I can't relate. I can. Just the same as I certainly understand those who chose not to participate in scenes with anyone but the person they are attached to for S/m. It's what works for them, so frankly My opinion on the other side of the question doesn't matter that much.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

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(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 75

RE: Sex vs Love - 12/10/2009 10:03:27 PM

breatheasone

Posts: 4004
Joined: 7/14/2007
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quote:

I do not find real joy in masturbation. It's a way to idle away the time but I do not achieve what I want with it. Much better, for me, to find a man and go "slap a condom on it, I'm going to fuck you and get off".

Aqua, for what its worth i love what you posted....The above is the only area we differ. i would rather masturbate then do the condom guy

Edited to add: i'd like to clarify that i don't find "real joy" in masturbating either (just sayin

)

< Message edited by breatheasone -- 12/10/2009 10:04:46 PM >

_____________________________

Romans 10:13,For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
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(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 76

RE: Sex vs Love - 12/10/2009 10:06:31 PM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

quote:

I do not find real joy in masturbation. It's a way to idle away the time but I do not achieve what I want with it. Much better, for me, to find a man and go "slap a condom on it, I'm going to fuck you and get off".

Aqua, for what its worth i love what you posted....The above is the only area we differ. i would rather masturbate then do the condom guy
Edited to add: i'd like to clarify that i don't find "real joy" in masturbating either (just sayin)

I simply don't find any real pleasure or release in masturbation. Which isn't to say that I don't enjoy it. I enjoy it - I also enjoy watching "Clean House". For me, the two are relatively similiar. I enjoy wanking but I don't achieve a real release. I'd much rather use a living person as my vibe.

Sex without love tops masturbation for me any day of the week.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to breatheasone)

Post #: 77

RE: Sex vs Love - 12/10/2009 10:10:10 PM

breatheasone

Posts: 4004
Joined: 7/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
I simply don't find any real pleasure or release in masturbation. Which isn't to say that I don't enjoy it. I enjoy it - I also enjoy watching "Clean House". For me, the two are relatively similiar. I enjoy wanking but I don't achieve a real release. I'd much rather use a living person as my vibe.

Sex without love tops masturbation for me any day of the week.

i gotcha!...i'm just on the other side of the coin. Ok, which one of us is heads?

Does the fact that i give good head factor in at all? Or was that TMI?

_____________________________

Romans 10:13,For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
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(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 78

RE: Sex vs Love - 12/10/2009 10:12:19 PM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
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I'm totally tails up...

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to breatheasone)

Post #: 79

RE: Sex vs Love - 12/10/2009 10:17:00 PM

breatheasone

Posts: 4004
Joined: 7/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

I'm totally tails up...

PERFECT!

_____________________________

Romans 10:13,For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Mike posts in black font
candy posts in pink font

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 80

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