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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/30/2009 10:55:52 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I don't know...........all this woman on woman bickering is doing a pretty good job of showing which gender is best at hating on the female gender.


How do you think men got ahead in the first place?

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to LaTigresse)
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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/30/2009 11:22:06 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

I don't think Gorean philosophy is inherently misogynstic, it's androcentric, which isn't quite the same thing: it isn't saying women are worthless, it's just saying men are worth more.


Worth more? No. Read post #218, or was that #208...

I'm not happy about the state of affairs, as such, but you are misrepresenting the problem.

What it probably comes down to, is that many are reluctant to move beyond Gor, seeing as that series has served many as an anchoring point, both in terms of personal and social identity. Identifying with the underlying elements in the series, as opposed to the fiction and satire, is after all the lowest common denominator. Moving beyond that puts that identity element, that anchor, on shaky grounds. And that is precisely what is needed in order to correct the deficiencies in the books: to forage ahead and discover the flip side of the coin, to integrate the two genders fully (beyond the level of relationships and such), and to explore each side of the coin to uncover in completeness that which might one day become.

I'm working on it independently, but in a different context, and I doubt there will be any mass "conversions."

As such, the Gorean lifestyles do have a significant blind spot and some notable deficiencies.

Ascribing more worth to men than women is not one of them, however.

quote:

But, things being what they are, there are plenty of woman who get a lot of utility out letting men think they're smarter and tougher. Somehow, it manages to work out for the most part, go figure.


Nothing to figure. The species has had 200.000 years or more to make the genders compatible.

And both parties thinking they're in charge, with both getting what they want, is nothing new.

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to xssve)
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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/30/2009 11:31:28 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23

The patriarchy is just shit men came up with to do while women were caught up in their drama.


Surely you jest. If I was going to advocate patriarchy, I would be doing it for the ass.

As it stands, I prefer hunting free-roaming ass to having my ass handed to me.

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Psychonaut23)
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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 12:01:59 AM   
Justme696


Posts: 3236
Joined: 1/7/2008
From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
Status: offline 		IF people would read the gorean forums and compare them with the bdsm forums, you would see they disagree with eachother as much as we do disagree witheachother.
We are kinda similar..in a differant way.

They even have a bit of an OSF ( stylewise) thread going on now..lol..that is the best prove of humanity ( just teasing)

oh call this a FR ..

< Message edited by Justme696 -- 12/31/2009 12:02:23 AM >

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 12:21:15 AM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AislynLass

This has to be one of the most hypocritical things I've ever read. I read the feminist thread, and was appalled by the viciousness of the "catfighting" and the hateful comments that were thrown back and forth at women by women. One of the comments that had me shaking my head in disbelief was made towards Elisabella by you Aynne, regarding her relating how debilitating and painful her menstrual cycle could be. I couldn't believe that one woman could be so insensitive to the fact that another woman could suffer through serious menstrual conditions such as dysmenorrhea, PCOS, and PMDD to name a few. Instead of taunting or jeering such a condition, you might instead be grateful that evidently you've never had to suffer through excessively painful or physically debilitating periods.
 
I am fairly new to these boards, and wasn't planning on posting in this thread...but the hypocrisy here is just mindboggling to me. In this posting, you seem to suggest that the ends justify whatever means to make the sale. Yet, in the same post, you refer to yourself as a feminist. Personally, I've always held the belief that the key concept of feminism was to promote the value of equal pay and opportunity for equal work and merit. Your boasting of using "sex appeal" to give you an edge with the men you are competing with completely belies and contradicts this point in my opinion. It is just really ironic that the argument over the cheerleading issue was being made that it promotes the message to girls that their "worth" or "value" is based on their looks or their bodies.
 
I happen to be an educator and worked to put myself through college to earn a degree. I was hired for my job as a teacher based on my credentials and ability. I guess I misunderstood the premises of feminism and didn't realize it meant that I should use my looks to give me a competitive edge over a man, rather than focusing on my intelligence and merit.
 
Oh, and I suppose that posturing as an "uber bitch" (based on how many times you've used that expression) and pointing a gun at a camera is supposed to convey "I am woman, hear me roar?"  I don't think that is how Helen Reddy intended it.
 
 


Thank you for that. I know I went off on Aynne in that thread, but at the time I was in bed taking slightly above recommend doses of panadol with codeine and hurting to sit up, and to be told that I was a 'drama queen' for something I was going through at the time just really set me off.

Part of me feels like I want to apologize but we've had enough conversations since then that the part of me that does want to apologize is being overriden by the part of me that doesn't want to apologize to her.

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 2:30:25 AM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AislynLass
I am fairly new to these boards, and wasn't planning on posting in this thread...but the hypocrisy here is just mindboggling to me.


Welcome to the CM boards -- where hypocrisy runs rampant despite there being no hypocrites here.

But then....if there were no hypocrisy on these boards.....what would I do when I get bored?


_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 2:32:32 AM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
Part of me feels like I want to apologize but we've had enough conversations since then that the part of me that does want to apologize is being overriden by the part of me that doesn't want to apologize to her.


Well that's good. Because I read that thread as well (broadband phones are great when you're bored at work). From what I witnessed, you have nothing to apologize for, especially not to those on the same side of someone who threatened to shoot you in the face. But then wait.....didn't the person in question making threatening comments to me after I mentioned the ridiculous nature of a gun-toting photo?

I guess they're both in good company then.


_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 5:04:48 AM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
Part of me feels like I want to apologize but we've had enough conversations since then that the part of me that does want to apologize is being overriden by the part of me that doesn't want to apologize to her.


Well that's good. Because I read that thread as well (broadband phones are great when you're bored at work). From what I witnessed, you have nothing to apologize for, especially not to those on the same side of someone who threatened to shoot you in the face. But then wait.....didn't the person in question making threatening comments to me after I mentioned the ridiculous nature of a gun-toting photo?

I guess they're both in good company then.



I guess apology isn't the right word, but I can't think of the right one. It's not an "I'm sorry for hurting your feelings" apology, it's a "I regret doing that" apology. I should know better by now. I have a serious weak spot when it comes to ignoring personal attacks, and sadly when you're presenting an unpopular argument you have to do it from a flawless intellectual distance, any jumping down in the mud, no matter what, will stick in people's minds long after they forget what anyone who agreed with them said.

For all I'm bawwwwing about how unfair it is, the fact remains that I enjoy snapping back if someone pushes me when I'm actually doing it. It's just later when I look back on it rationally that I feel like an idiot.

ETA - and yeah it's easy to talk about killing or shooting someone over the internet. I couldn't even kick a guy's teeth in when he stole my purse and I had him on the ground - my foot just stopped reflexively, on its own accord. So I really can't take anything like that as a threat, because if someone were so unstable that they were in a state of being able to murder in cold blood over forum words, it would have triggered long before they met me.

< Message edited by Elisabella -- 12/31/2009 5:06:41 AM >

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 5:31:19 AM   
sexyred1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

quote:

Most of the women on this site are marketing service for a sugar daddy, that's not misogyny, it's just being realistic - but if calling misogyny makes it easier then go for it.



What a sweeping generalization....you must be looking at the wrong profiles.


So all you need is love huh? Lol.


Well, love and money are both great, but I don't need a man for his money, just the love part. :) I cannot speak for other women on this point.

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 5:56:25 AM   
LaTigresse


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Since I have some free time this morning while I wait on the farrier to come give my boys a pedicure before I go to work.....I read the last additions to this thread. Then I though about it, and another thread we mentioned. Thought some more about the major players, what I've read in other threads and had a few lightbulb moments.

I have never identified as a feminist, for some reason, the word and what it implied to me always left a bad taste in my mouth. Where that comes from I really have no idea. Someplace further back in my life and developing than I can conciously remember. Yet, I feel that all humans should, and do with me, have the right to be treated as they deserve, as they have earned. Yet for all intent and purpose, in understanding the intent of the word, I am....equal treatment for those that have proven their worth.

I will not reward a 5yo's temper tantrum with an ice cream cone. I will not show respect to a punky, mouthy, rude 25yo.....whether they be male or female. I will not show respect to a 40, 50, 60, 100 yo that demands it because they exist, yet behave in a contemptable manner. Age, gender, race, none of that matters one whit to me. Personal integrity, personal responsibility, does.

On here, all we have to determine the merit of an individual by is their words, consistency, and for me most of all, their ability to take the high road during passionate and emotional debates. Very few of us manage to show ourselves in good light during such debates. Most especially when we are debating with a person we see as being unworthy of our respect by their own words. Myself included.

In essense we allow ourselves to be measured by others, by our interactions with the lowest common denominator. Because our passion, emotion, EGO takes control and causes us to sink to their level. We do our best to justify our behaviour by constantly pointing out theirs. Fighting to maintain our self respect by pointing out our disdain for the putzes. We allow the putzes to take control of ourselves.

I have seen over and over, when a hot topic like feminism comes up, the lowest common denominator/s appear, and those that are most passionate about the cause they identify with, become a shining example to reaffirm the mindset of the opposition. Yet constantly justifying their words by the low of the opposition. Perpetuating the mindsets of that opposition by their own behaviour/words.

Basically, if a woman does not want to be seen as a money grubbing, emotionally ruled, hysterical shrew, she should not behave as one. Regardless of the goading by obviously fear laden, women/feminist despising, putzes. If you believe that person to be a putz, why on earth would you give any credit to their fear driven arguments by sinking to their level or below, to try and discredit them??? Simply behaving in a manner that disproves their theory does it far more effectively AND takes the fun out of their day. Becoming that which they fear most, will only justify and reafirm their opinions and fears.

If many of the 'feminists' on these forums were on an election ballot for public office, there is NO WAY I would vote for them. Not because of gender but because of their inability to control themselves and their emotions in a manner that would give me the confidence in them to do a sensitive job well. The same can be said for most of the men, but we are not discussing the weaknesses of, or distaste for, men.

I saw a silly saying somewhere that applies "be the change you want to see".

If there was a woman being discussed for election in the political forums, that behaved as most of the 'feminists' on here do in their interactions, the feminists would tear her apart. Go back and read the comments about Palin if you need a refresher. Yet because the behaviour is in defense of a passion, somehow that rediculous behaviour becomes acceptable?

I adore most of the ladies here, and do NOT mean my words as an attack. Please do not take it as one. All I want to do is shine a light from a different angle.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Elisabella)
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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 6:04:56 AM   
Lucienne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AislynLass
 
I am fairly new to these boards, and wasn't planning on posting in this thread...but the hypocrisy here is just mindboggling to me. In this posting, you seem to suggest that the ends justify whatever means to make the sale. Yet, in the same post, you refer to yourself as a feminist. Personally, I've always held the belief that the key concept of feminism was to promote the value of equal pay and opportunity for equal work and merit. Your boasting of using "sex appeal" to give you an edge with the men you are competing with completely belies and contradicts this point in my opinion. It is just really ironic that the argument over the cheerleading issue was being made that it promotes the message to girls that their "worth" or "value" is based on their looks or their bodies.


I think the irony is much richer than that. Sales is a venal business and Elisabella raised some interesting points about technique that have basically gone unanswered. I'd need to explore the issue more before concluding if "hypocrisy" is an adequate term to describe the situation. But as the thread has developed, I've noticed a more on-topic theme.

I find it's rarely important to concern myself with whether or not a person is a misogynist (hater of women) in his or her heart. Of relevance is -- has a person done or said something that feeds off and/or into misogynist tropes. And in this thread Aynne, in her behavior towards Elisabella, has hit most of the major points. She called her frigid, an inadequate lover and commented on how easy it would be to steal her man. Because in a misogynist worldview, a woman is defined by her man and her value determined by her sexuality. Irritated by Elisabella, Aynne retreated to some of the ugliest and most irrational ways to attack a woman.

Next step, called out on her trash talk, Aynne responds with the time-honored classic "Lighten up." Oh, the feminist energy that has been devoted to analyzing and responding to that particular dismissive technique. I don't know that I want to explain this one in detail to those who don't get it. Too much energy. Let's just say - RED FLAG.

Then, and I suppose this point is somewhat debatable on the grounds that temporal succession does not equal causation, the retreat to fun flirty mode. With Domiguy. and others. But really, an interesting moment to highlight your comfort with the guy whose posts tend to manifest, well.... issues with women. (Note: I don't know or care what's in his heart and I'm not terribly bothered by his posts, just sayin)

So, Aynne, the self-proclaimed feminist, has put on a traditional display of how misogynistic tropes are kept alive in our culture by people who may or may not actually hate women. But that's not the irony that strikes me. What kills me is the similarity of her behavior to the behavior that Shakti was criticizing when she made the Nazi comment about Elisabella. For those capable of setting aside all the emotional responses, the point of the Nazi comment was about collaborators. Specifically, those who collaborate with systems that are oppressive to their class because their collaboration earns them special status and favor. So, basically, people who find themselves an exception but enforce the rule against those similarly situated. Which is pretty much what Aynne did to Elisabella here.



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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 6:25:55 AM   
Lucienne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
If many of the 'feminists' on these forums were on an election ballot for public office, there is NO WAY I would vote for them. Not because of gender but because of their inability to control themselves and their emotions in a manner that would give me the confidence in them to do a sensitive job well.


How much exposure have you had to politicians behind the scenes? I get your point. But it seems a bit silly. To begin with, politicians tend to err on the other side of the spectrum-- saying as little as possible. Really, it's pretty unusual to get a female politician to talk on the record about feminism in any depth. And, in my experience, any politician worth voting for doesn't actually talk like a politician when the cameras aren't around. You have to be passionate to succeed in politics. A combination of passion for the issues and for your own success as the most worthy standard-bearer of those issues. Preferably more of the former than the latter. How a person speaks about issues in a forum like this isn't necessarily indicative of how they would speak about the issues if they were trying to get votes. And how a politician speaks about issues in front of the camera isn't necessarily indicative of how they talk about it in a safe private space.

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 6:50:29 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

I saw a silly saying somewhere that applies "be the change you want to see".


Be the change you want to see in the world.

- Mahatma Gandhi

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 6:54:53 AM   
xssve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

I don't think Gorean philosophy is inherently misogynstic, it's androcentric, which isn't quite the same thing: it isn't saying women are worthless, it's just saying men are worth more.


Worth more? No. Read post #218, or was that #208...

I'm not happy about the state of affairs, as such, but you are misrepresenting the problem.
...
I started reading a thread in the Gorean forum one time where the argument was about who should be saved from a sinking ship if there weren't enough lifeboats; and the trend was distinctly that masters come first, slaves last - there are no male slaves in Gorean, no female masters, or even switches for that matter, the best they've managed if "Freewomen" who are basically women who aren't owned yet, and I'm guessing they're not going to first in line for the lifeboats either unless they can overpower a man.

There is a reason that the old rule is "women and children first" - men are basically expendable, from a biological point of view, we break snow, fight wild animals, take risks that are often fatal, and we do it to protect the core of the gene pool, represented by women, the means of expanding the population and replacing the losses.

i.e., the whole thing struck me as kinda chickenshit really. Sorry, I just call 'em like I see 'em.

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 7:01:49 AM   
Justme696


Posts: 3236
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From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
Status: offline 		there was not logic behind "women and children first". It is based on a remark of 1 captain.
Noble though.

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 7:06:06 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

there was not logic behind "women and children first". It is based on a remark of 1 captain.
Noble though.

This is just a guess, but I would think that it's based on the idea that if you save the children, you save the future, mixed in with a little chivalry.

- LA

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 7:06:54 AM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve
There is a reason that the old rule is "women and children first" - men are basically expendable, from a biological point of view, we break snow, fight wild animals, take risks that are often fatal, and we do it to protect the core of the gene pool, represented by women, the means of expanding the population and replacing the losses.


Actually, that's not accurate. It's got more to do with men easily over-powering women and children and thus all of them dying. It's an act of chivalry -- an out-dated concept, in my opinion, thanks to feminism. (Ain't feminism grand?)

The explanation can be found here.

< Message edited by Loki45 -- 12/31/2009 7:10:17 AM >

_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 7:29:43 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		In short, all biological life is pretty much organized around the women and children first principle - men are physically stronger in order to protect them, period.

In fact, linguistic ability was probably evolved by women, in the hunting/gathering economy, there is very little need for linguistic ability, in fact go hunting with your buddies and start orating, and they're going to tell you to shut the fuck up.

By contrast, gathering, which supplies on the order of 80% of the calories in the typical HG diet, relies on fairly complex cognitive mapping skills - what plants you can eat and what parts, where they can be found, what conditions they favor, what season they can be found in, when they're at their best, which poisonous plants look similar, etc., etc., a vast and complex library of information, critical to survival.

Information that requires long term episodic, eidetic and procedural memory, syntactic and lexical memory to communicate it to others - and you can jabber as much as you want when gathering, in fact it probably helps drive away the animals, the exact opposite of what is desirable when hunting, where the vastly larger human cerebral cortex's primary utility is heat dissipation.

It's why girls develop better verbal skills, and earlier. As it turns out, the alleles that govern cerebral development in humans are inherited almost exclusively maternally, they suppress the male alleles.

And I'm not saying men are stupid too, they have simply employed their verbal and abstractional skills in different directions, more abstract ones, less concerned with immediate survival and more concerned with expanding the overall cognitive map of consensus reality, objective or subjective, i.e, science, religion and politics, all abstract maps of reality, objective or subjective to greater or lesser extents.

It's a generalization of course, but there's enough of a statistical bias to characterize abstract cognitive skills as masculine, social verbal skills as feminine - and that's not even certain, given that women's contributions have often been suppressed historically - modern medicine comes from the pagan healers and witches (via Paracelsus), who possessed a vast store of pharmacological and anatomical knowledge, both theory and application, honed by practical experience. Mostly women.

You wanna hear a funny one, recent data suggests more girls are studying math and science, while the boys are more concerned with "being liked".

In short, the Hunting Hypothesis is depreciated, obsolete: one of the many, many advances made in evolutionary theory since the Gor books were written, the whole mid century paradigm that they're based on is sadly outdated. Gorean is a particular subjective map of reality, based on what was at one time the accepted objective map - the consensus regarding the objective map Gor was based on has changed, based on an exponentially expanding set of empirical data points, and Gor hasn't.

Because it's fiction, not science.

< Message edited by xssve -- 12/31/2009 7:32:21 AM >

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 7:34:08 AM   
xssve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve
There is a reason that the old rule is "women and children first" - men are basically expendable, from a biological point of view, we break snow, fight wild animals, take risks that are often fatal, and we do it to protect the core of the gene pool, represented by women, the means of expanding the population and replacing the losses.


Actually, that's not accurate. It's got more to do with men easily over-powering women and children and thus all of them dying. It's an act of chivalry -- an out-dated concept, in my opinion, thanks to feminism. (Ain't feminism grand?)

The explanation can be found here.
Your story doesn't explain why Chimpanzees do the same thing.

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 7:41:09 AM   
Justme696


Posts: 3236
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From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Chimpanzees have boats?

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