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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 9:20:34 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		And the sharks ate the women and the children first.

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 9:25:00 AM   
WinsomeDefiance


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

And the sharks ate the women and the children first.


I never knew that sharks had such discriminating apetites...

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 9:26:15 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Sharks are chivalrous :-) .

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 9:26:37 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

but a lot of women still get particularly horny when they're in their fertile phase, and prefer more dominant partners


Again, this is caveman thinking.

Biologically, perhaps I get more horny in my fertile phase. I don't discredit the power of biology. However, because I'm not wanting to conceive a child at the moment, I take this into very little consideration. I think having an intelligent conversation with a charming, intelligent, classy man is more likely to get me "horny".

And no, I don't prefer a more dominant partner. But I won't fault you for not seeing it from this perspective. Caveman thinking hasn't gotten there yet.

- LA
Just because you can consciously control your own emotional responses to some extent  doesn't mean they don't exist: again, I'm describing a curve, not where you particularly fall on that curve.

I hate having to repeat myself, but whattaya gonna do?



And look up. I wrote: "Biologically, perhaps I get more horny in my fertile phase. I don't discredit the power of biology."

I hate having people repeat to me what I clearly said, but whattaya gonna do?

- LA

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 9:37:42 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Oh gosh! Look! A real live caveman everyone!!


That's a very poor response to a cynical, but plausible, analysis of the biological causes of human behavior with regard to reproduction, and reinforces the impression that you are thinking emotionally about objective issues (which, incidentally, is apt to be overgeneralized by misogynists, thus reinforcing their prejudices).

Pretending that we can disregard our past in analyzing present behavior is a good way to be doomed to repeat history, and makes as much sense as pretending that we can flap our arms and fly on some theory that our no longer being apes somehow makes the distinction between mammalian and avian irrelevant. As one author put it: we are free to deny reason, but not to avoid falling off a cliff because we choose not to see it. Reality can out-dom any of us.

Humans are far better at thinking we reason in some particular way, than actually doing so.

Our insight, individually and as a species, is quite limited. As well it should be, given that a system cannot inspect itself from the outside, and our brains are wired with parts that allow us to selectively disregard facts that displease us, originating countless forms of cognitive bias, and preventing objective analysis of our memories. Which, incidentally, appears to be a side effect of the need for better predictive abilities; our memory doesn't seem to have been designed for recollection, but for imagination, with the ability to confabulate with reasonable accuracy being pretty much what we think of as memory.

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 9:38:22 AM   
xssve


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quote:

And look up. I wrote: "Biologically, perhaps I get more horny in my fertile phase. I don't discredit the power of biology."

I hate having people repeat to me what I clearly said, but whattaya gonna do?

- LA


No, you didn't attempt to discredit the power of biology directly, you argued that because you consider yourself an exception in your ability to mediate your biological responses to some extent, that the model somehow has less predictive validity by inference.

It remains statistically predictive, it's not a philosophy, you can't talk it away, it's immune to spin or contradictory narrative - you'll find these elements are common to any population of human beings, anywhere on the planet or off, in any age, the individual exceptions notwithstanding.

Me Tarzan, you Jane.

< Message edited by xssve -- 12/31/2009 9:40:00 AM >

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 9:43:51 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

And look up. I wrote: "Biologically, perhaps I get more horny in my fertile phase. I don't discredit the power of biology."



It's also very limiting to reduce the human experience to what amounts to little more than a pile of hormonal influences. If people want to define themselves through their biology, all the more power for them. I like to think that nurture and culture very much make us what we are.

"On ne naît pas femme : on le devient."
S. de Beauvoir

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 9:51:37 AM   
xssve


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Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		It's only cynical if you're a logical positivist.

And, optimism or pessimism both being equally delusional, but optimism generally proven to be healthier, it's probably better to err on the side of optimism.

Of course, on the other hand, it's still delusional, and the occasional bout of depression is often a useful tool for make more objective assessments of how things really are.

It does work this way, and yet here we are having a blast doing it - so how is that cynical?

On the contrary, I'd say that erotophobic institutions, fundie religion for example, generally leads to severe cognitive dissonance: if these people are so fucking happy, why are do they spend so much time and energy spreading hate and discontent?

Studies indicate that kinksters, BDSMr's, etc., tend to be healthier psychologically than the general population, less depression etc. - depression rates among vanilla married women in particular, tend to be much higher.

There is probably an empirically quantifiable psycho-social behavioral explanation for this.

Maybe it's all that anal sex: VNS is a legitimate therapy for depression and overeating.



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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 9:57:11 AM   
xssve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

And look up. I wrote: "Biologically, perhaps I get more horny in my fertile phase. I don't discredit the power of biology."



It's also very limiting to reduce the human experience to what amounts to little more than a pile of hormonal influences. If people want to define themselves through their biology, all the more power for them. I like to think that nurture and culture very much make us what we are.

"On ne naît pas femme : on le devient."
S. de Beauvoir
I'm not reducing, you're reducing - don't blame the messenger - do you feel diminished?

Do you imagine you can free yourself from biology by ignoring it? How about the laws of physics - though they are less easily rationalized away.

We are also tiny specks clinging to a microscopically thin skein of organic biomass, spinning away on tiny rock in an endless void - does it taste less sweet suddenly?

Make me want to get laid, go biology.



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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 9:57:22 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Oh gosh! Look! A real live caveman everyone!!



That's a very poor response to a cynical, but plausible, analysis of the biological causes of human behavior with regard to reproduction, and reinforces the impression that you are thinking emotionally about objective issues (which, incidentally, is apt to be overgeneralized by misogynists, thus reinforcing their prejudices).


It's not a poor response, it's a humourous one ;-)

And you assume that I'm thinking emotionally... oh shit yeah, I probably am because I'm a woman!!! ;-)

Come on Al-Aswad, don't get yourself dragged into this. You have some half decent posts here and I sort of half like you!

Godt Nytt År :-)

- LA


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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 9:59:18 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		why do you think it is called hysterical?

al-Aswad doesnt always translate subtle humor correctly into his norwegian, but he can be one funny motherfucker if you do the bizarro route.

Ron

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 9:59:46 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

And look up. I wrote: "Biologically, perhaps I get more horny in my fertile phase. I don't discredit the power of biology."



It's also very limiting to reduce the human experience to what amounts to little more than a pile of hormonal influences. If people want to define themselves through their biology, all the more power for them. I like to think that nurture and culture very much make us what we are.


I like to think there is a strong influence of each. There are actually very strong arguments for and against each so since it is impossible at this time to say with complete assurance that it is one or the other, I think the wise thing to do is consider both.

quote:

"On ne naît pas femme : on le devient."
S. de Beauvoir


Ah Simone! Quelle sage dame! ;-)

- LA

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 10:04:27 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

al-Aswad doesnt always translate subtle humor correctly into his norwegian, but he can be one funny motherfucker if you do the bizarro route.


I love the Norwegian! And yes, he can be one "funny motherfucker" as you so eloquently put it.

I told him I half-like him! What more do you want? I'm only feeling half-generous today ;-)

- LA

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 10:11:25 AM   
Acer49


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy519

I'm new to the forums, and maybe its just the small sample size but I see some disturbing trends where posters seem to have a strong misogynistic leaning.

There's a part of me that thinks they are merely trolls seeking reaction, and if that's how they enjoy filling the emptiness in their lives the more power to them.

But...there is a part of me that wonders if some who truly hate women see BDSM as an outlet for their anger?

It lends credence to some articles I've read by the anti-BDSM crowd that all dominants are misogynists (these articles exclusively attribute dominance to males).  But we all know that's bullshit.

Is this a new phenomenon, Where places like CM have become venues in which misogyny can be worn like a badge?




I am sure there are a few men and women haters on this board, but I'd like to believe that their numbers are very small. I am afraid that if someone was dumb enough to wear it as some badge, the chances of them ever making a connection, would be very slim. I would like to believe that even the heaviest of players would have a problem with someone who confessed to hating men or women

< Message edited by Acer49 -- 12/31/2009 10:12:02 AM >

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 10:16:09 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

No, you didn't attempt to discredit the power of biology directly, you argued that because you consider yourself an exception in your ability to mediate your biological responses to some extent, that the model somehow has less predictive validity by inference.


No, you misunderstood me. I said my biology cycle was not the only thing that makes me "horny".

I wrote I think having an intelligent conversation with a charming, intelligent, classy man is more likely to get me "horny". That is cerebral, not biological.

Stop trying to turn my words around. It's not very chivalrous of you.

- LA

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Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 10:35:34 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

If you're trying to impress me with rationalizations, ad hominem is a poor beginning.


Relax. I kind of like you.

I just call 'em as I see 'em.

And my scrip isn't up to date.

quote:

I'm simply suggesting you bear in mind the difference between fact and fiction - I've heard enough Goreans espousing the Gorean equivalent of Scientology to know it exists - if it suits you and you're having fun, knock yourself out, but when it comes to proselytizing, I'm afraid you're pissing up a rope.


I'm not proselytizing. I'm attempting to address some notions that are frequently projected onto people on this board who identify as Gorean, seeing as the Gorean subculture on this board has generally moved past most of the notions which tend to be projected onto them. Those who haven't, have generally gotten off the train at an earlier stop, and I won't pretend I have any idea what they're into or up to.

quote:

Just trying to save you some time, as a courtesy.


Noted and appreciated. If we can agree that I couldn't care less about conversions, but do care about some modicum of accuracy with regard to the present subculture here (it's a moving target, to its credit), then we can both save time. I won't pretend not to like it, nor pretend to lack serious issues with it of my own. But more Goreans isn't a goal of mine nowadays. An accurate impression helps build bridges, which helps bring in new ideas, which helps update beliefs and converge on something better. Bringing in new people is superfluous; it's ideas and work that's needed now.

Health,
al-Aswad.

P.S.: We've never had a shortage of kooks in the kitchen, but the turnover of those is pretty high.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 10:45:36 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

It's not a poor response, it's a humourous one ;-)


Mea culpa, then. From the tone of previous posts, I didn't catch the humor in this one (I'm near-sighted with regard to humor, anyway). Smileys help ameliorate the lack of tone of voice in online "speech." I should try to use them a bit more frequently, myself. I'll take the half liking as a compliment; merci beaucoup, et «bonne année» à vous aussi.

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 10:48:15 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		So I'm not turning you on? And women wonder why men lie, gimme a minute to change gears into subjective mode dear.

You misunderstand me - I was never talking about you specifically, objectively and statistically, you and your experience are largely irrelevant, you and I are tiny swirls and eddies in a vast fractal design, governed by natural selection: we are directly descended from the horniest organisms: the function of life is simply to perpetuate itself, it's a natural fact. We just float around bumping into each other and occasionally splitting.

I'm certain you are a complex being in your own right, I've found most people are, in spite of the algorithm - you work with what you've got, and there are so many interesting variations. And that is relevant, and it makes you're experience relevant because everything that happens changes everything else. It's a dynamic universe.

We're all locked into our subjective perceptions of reality, and different consensus paradigms compete, functioning as vehicles of group fitness in order to maximize individual fitness - wealth for instance, is merely and abstract symbol for fertility: how many sheep you have determines how many children you can support, that's all - anything beyond that is superfluous, it's only utility is based on whether it optimizes or degrading the group vehicle.

Gorean is one consensus paradigm, as are Christians, monetarists, Keynsians, Libertarians, Neo-cons, Randists, Hindu's, etc., etc. and many of them come in still further varieties.

But, the competition sometimes gets bloody, and rather than prate and rationalize about what a good thing that is when you happen to be winning, it's sometimes useful to remember that we all emerged from the same gene pool, the same gene pool our descendants will have to emerge from, and it's not that wise to shit in your pool if you intend on swimming in it.

It might not be romantic, but it's sometimes useful to know what's what.

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 10:51:22 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

don't blame the messenger



Don't flatter yourself, mate - I didn't have you in mind when I replied to Angelika.



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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 11:02:33 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

al-Aswad doesnt always translate subtle humor correctly into his norwegian, but he can be one funny motherfucker if you do the bizarro route.


It's not the translation. It's the subtext and tone that tend to get lost. I'm "blind" to it in my native Norwegian, as well. It's not that I don't have a sense of humor, as you point out, but rather that it's idiosyncratic, which works both ways. Like I found it amusing to see an ad that translates as "munch my super rug", or the pump car that said "we'll suck anyone", but beyond the juvenile, it's generally far less predictable where there is going to be an overlap.

It's a bit like being a strange clown in a strange land, sometimes.

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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