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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 11:03:07 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

If you're trying to impress me with rationalizations, ad hominem is a poor beginning.


Relax. I kind of like you.

I just call 'em as I see 'em.

And my scrip isn't up to date.

quote:

I'm simply suggesting you bear in mind the difference between fact and fiction - I've heard enough Goreans espousing the Gorean equivalent of Scientology to know it exists - if it suits you and you're having fun, knock yourself out, but when it comes to proselytizing, I'm afraid you're pissing up a rope.


I'm not proselytizing. I'm attempting to address some notions that are frequently projected onto people on this board who identify as Gorean, seeing as the Gorean subculture on this board has generally moved past most of the notions which tend to be projected onto them. Those who haven't, have generally gotten off the train at an earlier stop, and I won't pretend I have any idea what they're into or up to.

quote:

Just trying to save you some time, as a courtesy.


Noted and appreciated. If we can agree that I couldn't care less about conversions, but do care about some modicum of accuracy with regard to the present subculture here (it's a moving target, to its credit), then we can both save time. I won't pretend not to like it, nor pretend to lack serious issues with it of my own. But more Goreans isn't a goal of mine nowadays. An accurate impression helps build bridges, which helps bring in new ideas, which helps update beliefs and converge on something better. Bringing in new people is superfluous; it's ideas and work that's needed now.

Health,
al-Aswad.

P.S.: We've never had a shortage of kooks in the kitchen, but the turnover of those is pretty high.


As an algorithmic information parsing technique, I tend to compare arguments, which are invariably based on some sort of paradigm model/construct, to the the most up to date objective consensus paradigm construct for symmetry, objective defined as the most robust consensus model w/regards to the empirical data.

If I perceive substantial asymmetry, I will tend to be suspicious of the paradigm model's predictive value, although often such models create distortions that appear to confirm them as predictive as the paradigm is internalized - self fulfilling prophecies, like Christians and Armegeddon. Typically however, this effect has some natural limitation it will eventually be unable to overcome.

Let us hope that this is so w/regard to the Armageddon model - the natural limit there is we all call bullshit and find something more fun to do.

It helps if you have an objective paradigm to work from, and it also helps you to make assessments regarding what is baby and what is bathwater.

(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 11:09:53 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol


quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

don't blame the messenger



Don't flatter yourself, mate - I didn't have you in mind when I replied to Angelika.


Maybe you're flattering yourself; that is a standard rationalization, the "free will" vs. biological determinism debate - basically meaningless since in a chaotic model it's seldom an either/or proposition - which is part of the reason it's chaotic.

It had to crop up somewhere, you just happened to draw that card first.

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 11:11:21 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		I'll catch up later, I have to go clean my house, it's definitely a chaotic system.

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 11:13:44 AM   
Kimveri


Posts: 783
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		~FR~

I'll not bother to adress any of the misconceptions repeated here linking Goreans to misogyny. It's a moot point at this juncture.

I do think there's a single point of clarity that could be dropped in here,though. Take it or leave it, as you choose.

I never thought much before this thread about the setting of the fiction being pre-Enlightenment because, in the full reading of the series, I saw most of the principles promoted during the Enlightenment to also be promoted in the author's philosophizing. (Of course, the fictional societies depicted didn't do much better of a job at putting those principles into action than did our actual societies....but that's a thread for another forum, no? ;-D )

For me, what I read in those novels was more about finding a balance, than of choosing "one OR the other" philosophical directions.

IOW, it's not a choice between nurture "or" nature, it's harmony with both. It's not pro-men (thus anti-women) "or" pro-women (thus anti-men), it's accepting their complementarity & finding a specific 'complementarity' that fulfills you personally.

It's not biology "or" reason...it's the balance of both.

But then, I'm not too intelligent, so maybe I'm all wrong here. ;-P

Happy New Year to you all!

~K

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to kittinSol)
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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 11:17:08 AM   
Aswad


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Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Acer49

I am sure there are a few men and women haters on this board, but I'd like to believe that their numbers are very small. I am afraid that if someone was dumb enough to wear it as some badge, the chances of them ever making a connection, would be very slim. I would like to believe that even the heaviest of players would have a problem with someone who confessed to hating men or women


I don't know about others, but when I hate something, I just want to destroy it. Period.

«I consign thee to the void. Begone, and good riddance!», that sort of thing.

I never feel any sort of desire to abuse, humiliate, torture or otherwise "play" with anything I hate.

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Acer49)
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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 11:23:49 AM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

I'll catch up later, I have to go clean my house, it's definitely a chaotic system.

I only read this post, and the previous two.  I figured I'd stop by to point out that your house isn't a chaotic system.  Ain't no bifurcatin' goin' on, pal.  It's not as though if you fail to pick up after yourself in a slightly different way, your place will suddenly become spotless.  (More to the point, human interaction is not chaotic either.  Even Santa Fe Institute models aren't the kind of thing you're pretending exist.)

You are, of course, the first person in the history of the internet who acted as though he knew something about a fancy term, when in fact he was full of shit.  Might not want to get too frikkin close to things like "algorithmic parsing" either, unless you're a bit more careful.  All I see is a lot of big words, with no comprehension of what they actually mean.


_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to xssve)
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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 11:27:43 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Collarme threads are another example of this entropy.

Hey, folks think I'm stupid because I say fuck alot.

Mebbe yes, mebbe no.

Lotta people know big words though, don't mean nothin'.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 11:30:07 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		I think I better quickly add that my comments about the health of the gene pool should in no way be mistaken as a rationale for any sort of institutional eugenics scheme, other than a general philosophy regarding economic externalities: i.e., a certain rate of random mutation is part of the natural order of things, over time, the beneficial ones tend to be selected in, the detrimental ones, selected out - whereas arbitrarily subjecting entire populations to starvation and/or malnutrition, and/or saturating the environment with heavy metals or other neurotoxins does damage to the gene pool on much larger, and more difficult to rectify scale, often with long term consequences, on the order of centuries.

Once a psychopathic pre-adaptation is triggered, for example, it may be heritable for up to 20 generations.

< Message edited by xssve -- 12/31/2009 12:11:45 PM >

(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 11:32:18 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

I'll catch up later, I have to go clean my house, it's definitely a chaotic system.

I only read this post, and the previous two.  I figured I'd stop by to point out that your house isn't a chaotic system.  Ain't no bifurcatin' goin' on, pal.  It's not as though if you fail to pick up after yourself in a slightly different way, your place will suddenly become spotless.  (More to the point, human interaction is not chaotic either.  Even Santa Fe Institute models aren't the kind of thing you're pretending exist.)

You are, of course, the first person in the history of the internet who acted as though he knew something about a fancy term, when in fact he was full of shit.  Might not want to get too frikkin close to things like "algorithmic parsing" either, unless you're a bit more careful.  All I see is a lot of big words, with no comprehension of what they actually mean.

The appearance of  an exemplar of a pedant with no sense of humor is also a random, but predictable occurrence.

(in reply to RedMagic1)
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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 11:32:32 AM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Lotta people know big words though, don't mean nothin'.

Honestly, I think big words get in the way of communication.  They're a useful shorthand between specialists.  Outside of that, they're just a way for insecure people to proclaim how much education and intelligence they think they have.


_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 490
RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 11:33:45 AM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve
The appearance of  an exemplar of a pedant with no sense of humor is also a random, but predictable occurrence.

Just so you know, you just proved you're on Christmas vacation.

< Message edited by RedMagic1 -- 12/31/2009 11:34:03 AM >

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to xssve)
Profile   Post #: 491
RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 11:35:03 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		mirable dictu!!!! selbst verstehendlich!


now, bring on da wimminz!!!!!!

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 11:38:08 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

It helps if you have an objective paradigm to work from, and it also helps you to make assessments regarding what is baby and what is bathwater.


The approach is similar to mine. Even so, in the course of refining a model for living life, however complex the basis for the model is, and however thoroughly it is analyzed, the model itself must remain within reach of the average human to actually implement. That will at times entail simplification, with the result that errors crop up. So long as people make a continuous effort to check the course, with reality and one's chosen axioms (principally values) as the yardstick, that is going to yield a reasonable approximation to a good life according to those values, despite the periodic errors. Global optima are hard to find, and at a subculture level there will not be a sufficient number of people to randomly trip into a more optimal state on a regular basis, so directed effort is required.

Obviously, one of the axioms I subscribe to does impair fitness: I value values higher than survival and procreation.

It's been my contention that this is implied in the Gorean model of life as well, which may be something of a departure from objective naturalism, depending on your point of view. Thus, values must be taken into account when making the course corrections if that axiom is to stand. Seeing as purpose is a human construct, imposed on a scale local, entropy driven mechanic that doesn't feature such ideas (even procreation and selection is just an emergent property of the system), I figure that is a valid approach at a human level.

Actually correcting the course is where what I said about introducing new ideas and debating the pool of ideas enters the picture. And within the aforementioned constraints, I do believe the Gorean model can converge on a reasonable approximation of an objective paradigm. That's straying outside the topic, though, and I'm not sure this is a level of abstraction in the debate that lends itself to open participation.

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to xssve)
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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 11:38:32 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		The implication that Ron has a less than stellar ability to understand complex concepts......

is fuckin' stupid


Jeff

_____________________________

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(in reply to RedMagic1)
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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 11:43:13 AM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

I think I better wuickly add that my comments about the health of the gene pool should in no way be mistaken as a rationale for any sort of institutional eugenics scheme, other than a general philosophy regarding economic externalities: i.e., a certain rate of random mutation is part of the natural order of things, over time, the beneficial ones tend to be selected in, the detrimental ones, selected out - whereas arbitrarily subjecting entire populations to starvation and/or malnutition, and/or saturating the environment with heavy metals or other neurotoxins does damage to the gene pool on much larger, and more difficult to rectify scale, often with long term consequences, on the order of centuries.

Once a psychopathic pre-adaptation is triggered, for example, it may be heritable for up to 20 generations.



Dude, I scored perfectly on my verbal SAT's, won a spelling bee on TV when I was six and took the Mensa test..... and I can honestly say I don't know what the hell you are talking about relevant to this thread.

Maybe I am just hormonal and my brain is foggy, ya know how it is for us girls.?

(in reply to xssve)
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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 11:44:45 AM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
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Status: offline
Ich kann offenbar jetzt sehen! Ich wischte den Samen von meinen Augen ab!(just getting in the spirit of things - now bring in  da cuppycakes!) 

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 496
RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 11:47:35 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Ich kann dich durch shauen. Kommen sie hier bitte, fraulein--- mit der hosen int der hand.

Reichskanzler Ron



_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 497
RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 11:48:38 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		No shit!



Jeff

_____________________________

"If you don't live it, it won't come out your horn." Charlie Parker

(in reply to mnottertail)
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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 11:50:33 AM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline 		LOL!!!  You cuppycakes are too cute.

< Message edited by WinsomeDefiance -- 12/31/2009 11:52:08 AM >

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RE: Misogyny and BDSM - 12/31/2009 12:06:49 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

I started reading a thread in the Gorean forum one time where the argument was about who should be saved from a sinking ship if there weren't enough lifeboats; and the trend was distinctly that masters come first, slaves last - there are no male slaves in Gorean, no female masters, or even switches for that matter, the best they've managed if "Freewomen" who are basically women who aren't owned yet, and I'm guessing they're not going to first in line for the lifeboats either unless they can overpower a man.




quote:

Let me guess, this was before Omega and Rapture ran away with their tails between their legs?


Hi Master Aswad,

I think this is the thread he is referring to. You may want to gather food and drink together, this is a long one.  http://www.collarchat.com/m_2388292/mpage_1/tm.htm

zeph


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The pain gonna make ev'rything alright ~ Black Crows

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(in reply to Aswad)
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