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RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/3/2010 1:34:16 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		a) I'd be surprised were it an accurate reflection of Kevin Rudd's statements.

b) More importantly is there any evidence to back up any claim that muslims would like to turn Australia into an Islamic state?

c) Whoever said it forgot to mention Islamo-Fascism and women being stoned (usually follows any conversation remotely connected to terrorism).

d) What a waste of energy. All round. Including mine. Not much going on in the world eh.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/3/2010 1:37:14 PM   
EPGAH


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3
This post is mainly nonsense but my point is Christian Australians throughout their history tried to convert by force the indigenous people that were there before them. They should have learned from this mistake and realise that people are entitled to keep their own identity regardless of what the majority is.

Maybe, but I hereby offer America as an example of what happens when you have too many groups, each pulling in a way that benefits THEIR group, rather than the nation as a whole. Once we lost our national unity, we started declining.
And I don't think Australia tried to convert the locals, they just pushed them aside and built a prison--A very HARSH prison by OUR standards!
But then, people should only assimilate if they want the benefits provided by the society they are entering, rather than pushing aside the old people and building their own civilization there. The "indigenous", as you call them, cleverly avoided leaving any civilization or benefits for the newcomers.
Come to think of it, the same is true in America.

BUT the new immigrants feel "entitled" to take advantage of everything the society they're invading has to offer, and THEN force their old ways onto it.
If it was worth fleeing from, it's not worth reenacting in the new place!

I can provide you links if you don't believe me, for whatever reason?

(in reply to SL4V3M4YB3)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/3/2010 1:45:47 PM   
EPGAH


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
b) More importantly is there any evidence to back up any claim that muslims would like to turn Australia into an Islamic state?


Actually, Moslems WERE trying to spread Sharia Law into Australia, wanting it to be a "Separate But Equal" and/or "alternate" law system...That sounds great on paper, but remember, a lot of things we consider crimes, they consider their "rights", and vice-versa.
Eventually, the law systems would clash, and one would have to be declared the Law of the Land, and the other eliminated.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/australia.asp

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/3/2010 1:46:00 PM   
AnimusRex


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quote:

"'Most Australian Aboriginal people believe in Dreamtime. This is not some Aboriginal, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Aboriginal men and women, on Aboriginal principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If Dreamtime and the First Peoples concepts offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because these are a part of our culture.'

"'We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.'

"'This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Aboriginal beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.'
'If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.' Maybe if we circulate this , American citizens will find the backbone to start speaking and voicing the same truths.


When asked for comment, a representative of several North American Native nations remarked- "Wish we had thought of that, before all the damn foreigners took over the country!"

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/3/2010 1:46:57 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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From: S.E. London U.K.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH
BUT the new immigrants feel "entitled" to take advantage of everything the society they're invading has to offer, and THEN force their old ways onto it.


I'll re-word the above in a way that makes sense to me...

"BUT the new immigrants are entitled to take advantage of everything the society they're becoming a part of has to offer, and THEN introduce their ways to it."

Change is constant, don't fear it. In a hundred years nobody will care just as nobody really cares about our own turbulent history when words such as 'invasion' were restricted to those that used force through war to introduce their ways.

If the ways are superior they will flourish if the ways are backwards and hateful nobody in society will stand for them.
quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH
And I don't think Australia tried to convert the locals, they just pushed them aside and built a prison--A very HARSH prison by OUR standards!

So I suppose you didn't hear about those children that were stolen and placed within Christian families or within institutions

I suppose you also didn't hear the public apology for it either.


< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 1/3/2010 1:55:46 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/3/2010 1:49:15 PM   
AnimusRex


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH
BUT the new immigrants feel "entitled" to take advantage of everything the society they're invading has to offer, and THEN force their old ways onto it.
If it was worth fleeing from, it's not worth reenacting in the new place!
I can provide you links if you don't believe me, for whatever reason?


Let me help you out- here is a picture of the new immigrants who are forcing their old ways upon the people whom they have invaded:





Attachment (1)

(in reply to EPGAH)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/3/2010 1:57:12 PM   
rulemylife


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(in reply to AnimusRex)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/3/2010 2:05:33 PM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

Actually, Moslems WERE trying to spread Sharia Law into Australia, wanting it to be a "Separate But Equal" and/or "alternate" law system...That sounds great on paper, but remember, a lot of things we consider crimes, they consider their "rights", and vice-versa.
Eventually, the law systems would clash, and one would have to be declared the Law of the Land, and the other eliminated.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/australia.asp



Go on then - educate me - is this a significant movement with significant backing? You have militants in any group of people - what you need to show is that this is the aim of a significant minority at the very least.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/3/2010 4:05:15 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH
BUT the new immigrants feel "entitled" to take advantage of everything the society they're invading has to offer, and THEN force their old ways onto it.
If it was worth fleeing from, it's not worth reenacting in the new place!
I can provide you links if you don't believe me, for whatever reason?


Let me help you out- here is a picture of the new immigrants who are forcing their old ways upon the people whom they have invaded:









NATIVE AMERICAN LEGENDS
The Sand Creek Massacre
 
 
Painting of the attack on Sand Creek ,
courtesy the Colorado Historical Society     The Sand Creek Massacre, occurring on November 29, 1864, was one of the most infamous incidents of the Indian Wars. Initially reported in the press as a victory against a bravely fought defense by the Cheyenne, later eyewitness testimony conflicted with these reports, resulting in a military and two Congressional investigations into the events. Starting in the 1850’s, the gold and silver rush in the Rocky Mountains brought thousands of white settlers into the mountains and the surrounding foothills. Dislocating and angering the Cheyennes and Arapahos who lived on the land, the Pike's Peak Gold Rush in 1858 brought the tension to a boiling point.   Washington, December 20, 1864
"The affair at Fort Lyon, Colorado, in which Colonel Chivington destroyed a large Indian village, and all its inhabitants, is to be made the subject of congressional investigation. Letters received from high officals in Colorado say that the Indians were killed after surrendering, and that a large proportion of them were women and children." The Indians soon began to attack wagon trains, mining camps and stagecoach lines, a practice that increased during the Civil War, when the number of soldiers in the area was greatly decreased. Soon, this led to what became known as the Colorado War of 1864-1865.
As the violence between the Native Americans and the miners continued to increase, territorial governor John Evans sent a Voluntary Militia commander by the name of Colonel John Chivington to quiet the Indians. Chivington, though once a member of the clergy, his compassion did not extend to the Indians and his desires to extinguish them all was well known.
In the spring of 1864, while the Civil War raged in the east, Chivington launched a campaign of violence against the Cheyenne and their allies, his troops attacking any and all Indians and razing their villages. The Cheyennes, joined by neighboring Arapahos, Sioux, Comanches, and Kiowas in both Colorado and Kansas, went on the defensive warpath.http://www.legendsofamerica.com/NA-SandCreek.html


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"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/3/2010 4:11:16 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I know you're not arguing that it isn't with this kind of hateful rhetoric that the Nazis nearly achieved their goal.

I'm with Muse on this one. It's precisely this kind of disgusting and divisive discourse that promotes hatred and violence. Such peddling to xenophobia and cretinous beliefs is shameful.


People should take a hard look at the History of the "Know Nothing Party" in the US, now aka the Conservative Wing of the GOP. Shamefully, they were part of Lincoln's original coalition with the Northern Whigs.

Assimilation is a two way street if it works openly and freely. We change the immigrants and the immigrants change us. Can you say "pizza" anyone?



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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/3/2010 4:12:41 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
well when it comes to antisemitic I surely hope you are not referring to me?  I have spoke aout several times against the evils being perpetrated agains them.
911?  That was a different time.  I make quick work (and fools) out of anyone wants to argue 911 now days.... LOL

Well no how could I be talking about you I mean you didn't just make a sick joke about the holocaust victims did you?

and your comments regarding 911 does it mean you no longer consider it a gigantic Jew lead conspiracy?


I think I made it pretty clear that orthodox rabbis deny it was a holocaust.  They are correct unless you all want to claim hitler performed the sacred "burnt offering"., the olah.

you mean there are still people who think cave men can take befuddle confuse and get every aspect of our 400 billion dollar defense system to screw up all on that one day when it has worked perfectly since its conception?   LOL


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to SL4V3M4YB3)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/3/2010 4:19:24 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


Posts: 3506
Joined: 12/20/2007
From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline 		The problem with any defence system is that it's usually based on fighting off the last attempted attack.

Hijackers purposely flying planes into buildings was never considered, we all assumed most hijacks would be resolved with a ransom demand on an airstrip.

What can I tell you? The world was naive, we didn't think people were capable of it and so yes anyone could have got away with it.

I think you are forgetting how different the world was in terms of how we saw threats back then.


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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/3/2010 4:50:07 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

We all know where "governing with feelings" leads to.


Yes sad but so Somalia after all the pictures of bloated starving children with flies in their eyes. I do wish we could have done more there but the media pulled us into that conflict with their pictures without informing us of the problems we would face.

Butch


< Message edited by kdsub -- 1/3/2010 5:13:30 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/3/2010 5:11:55 PM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		If American Muslims wanted to live in the US governed by Shaira law and not local, State, and Federal law I think it would be proper to tell them you can’t do that here.

Do you really think the French, UK, and other European intelligence agencies are not watching the goings on at local Mosques?

Don’t you think immigrants should make every effort to learn and accommodate the predominate mores of the population of their adopted country?

I think it should be a requirement to learn a national language…only because not being able to communicate is the biggest reason of resentment amount different ethnic groups.

He says they are a Christian country…do Muslims claim the same about their countries?…He said that they will accept their beliefs as long as they respect theirs…now what the hell is wrong with that? If they want Muslim schools and mosques fine and dandy with him.

Only the last paragraph I don’t agree with and I believe it may have been added by someone passing on the speech…which as stated could all be false.

I repeat I would agree with anything said above and would be perfectly willing to live under those rules if I were to immigrate to another country.

Butch


< Message edited by kdsub -- 1/3/2010 5:14:26 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/3/2010 5:39:19 PM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		This type argument is always a flawed argument. Remember these very same, invaded people, as you put it displaced other groups of people as they multiplied and needed more land.

They were no more noble or moral then the Europeans that displaced them.

I am not saying it is right...or could not have been done different but I do contend one group was no more at fault than the other.

Butch


< Message edited by kdsub -- 1/3/2010 5:40:00 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to AnimusRex)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/3/2010 6:01:07 PM   
chiaThePet


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You mean I've been maligned as inane and irreverent (and otherwise totally MISSunderstood)
and dragged into the time machine to revisit , the indigenous Aborigines and Torres Straits,
John Smith and Pocahontas's lambskin prophylactic, the Holocaust, 9/11, the Imams and
the Caliphs, just because some ratbag fast forwarded an email with five year old quotes
to Shakespeare and he spit the dummy.

Hold up all you Shielas, unpack the car, we're staying put.
And Sport, take the bangers off the barbe, the kitchen's closed.

chia* (the pet)


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Love is a many splendid sting.

You can stick me in the corner, but I'll probably just end up coloring on the walls.

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/3/2010 6:18:42 PM   
EPGAH


Posts: 500
Joined: 12/25/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex
quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH
BUT the new immigrants feel "entitled" to take advantage of everything the society they're invading has to offer, and THEN force their old ways onto it.
If it was worth fleeing from, it's not worth reenacting in the new place!
I can provide you links if you don't believe me, for whatever reason?

Let me help you out- here is a picture of the new immigrants who are forcing their old ways upon the people whom they have invaded:

That's true, but remember, they were here longer than we were, BUT they weren't necessarily there first. Why did they come across the Bering Strait, if not to expand? And were or were they not fighting amongst themselves, especially the militant, imperialistic...AZTECS! A human-sacrifice cult, demanding "tribute" from lesser tribes in LIVES...Like the legendary sacrifices to the Minotaur.

And again, you must've skipped the first line: The Indians had no civilization for Pilgrims to mooch off of, no ERs for the invaders if they got hurt, no free schools for the invaders' kids...Hell, even the Americans didn't believe in welfare back then, as exemplified by John "Tough Love" Smith, "He Who Does Not Work, Shall Not Eat"

SL4V3M4YB3, incorrect. If their ways were so much better, they would find a blank land to settle, rather than one with a civilization already there...
Or do you consider a nomadic tent-dweller a "civilization", even without technology?

Also remember, your beloved Indians didn't just stand by and let Americans civilize the place, they FOUGHT! They lost badly, but they still fought. Nowadays, though, it's considered "racist" to fight people who invade your country, want to leech off what you and your ancestors built, THEN tell you how to do it.
IF our way was so horrible, we'd have nothing worth leeching off of, and they'd simply push us away by force. We would fight back and be overwhelmed by superior technology.

You want to make us feel guilty for building up a civilization where was once blank land? Fine. Just give up every benefit you get from our technology and civilization. No more comfy houses with furniture and air-conditioning, go back to living in a tent. Find a nice stream, because running water is part of civilization. Oh, and if you get sick, hope you can find the right herbs in time, because our Evil Tech also includes medicine!

Of course, I very seriously doubt even the most FANATIC primitive would make that trade. I have a friend who is the head of an Indian Reservation, and he says anyone trying to steal his technology, even to return them to their tribal ways, will get a .44 piece of his technology. Oddly, that vaguely sounded like a threat...I must've misinterpreted!

< Message edited by EPGAH -- 1/3/2010 6:19:01 PM >

(in reply to AnimusRex)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/3/2010 6:18:55 PM   
AnimusRex


Posts: 2165
Joined: 5/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
This type argument is always a flawed argument. Remember these very same, invaded people, as you put it displaced other groups of people as they multiplied and needed more land.

They were no more noble or moral then the Europeans that displaced them.

I am not saying it is right...or could not have been done different but I do contend one group was no more at fault than the other.


The purpose wasn't to make Americans feel bad, or guilty.
The purpose was to show that we suddenly now appreciate the benefits of resisting foreign influence, when it just didn't seem to be a big deal when we were forcing Native Americans/ Aborigines to adopt our religion and culture.

Yes, Sharia law is wrong; adopting prayers in schools is wrong; setting up a cross or manger scene on the courthouse steps is wrong.
These things are all wrong because they promote one religion over another. In America and the Western cultures we have a secular democracy, where the shared values are not of a specific religion, but of a vision of freedom of individual conscience.

So when Howard argued that Australia was a "Christian" country, he was showing that he failed to understand what a secular democracy is about; he seemed to be fine with religious triumphalism, as long as it was Christian triumphalism.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/3/2010 6:28:12 PM   
EPGAH


Posts: 500
Joined: 12/25/2006
Status: offline 		Do you REALLY believe in a sort of cultural "Survival of the Fittest"?
And if so, why preclude one side from fighting back, calling them "racists" if they do?
This will surprise you, but America was mostly formed of Protestants, whether they thought the Catholic Church was too RESTRICTIVE (Pilgrims) or NOT RESTRICTIVE ENOUGH (Puritans)!
Hell, even the Mexicans, in their war against America, tried to make it a Holy War, the Catholics fighting the Evil Protestants.

Of course, now that we have borders and such, they seem to forget the Ten Suggestions, particularly the annoying bits, "Thou Shalt Not Covet Thy Neighbor's Possessions", and "Thou Shalt Not Steal"

What is illegal entry if not desiring what we have so much that rather than TRADE for it, ASK/BEG for it, they come in and STEAL it, then bitch how much different the land they're invading is from they were spawned...We're "evil" if we don't coddle our invaders with everything in THEIR language, take care of THEIR kids, and overlook THEIR violations of OUR law...And I also urge you to look up the Mexica Movement: These ingrates want to kick us out of OUR country, but steal OUR technology!

Back to religion, I would posit that the Moslem cult has been a destabilizing influence in the Eastern Hemisphere since its inception. They don't seek coexistence with others, they seek to either destroy or subjugate all non-Moslems. Wait, isn't that what you just basically accused the civilized people of?

(in reply to AnimusRex)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/3/2010 6:59:36 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chiaThePet

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

No. "Arbeit macht frei".


Wir wissen, das ein Untruth ist.

chia* (the pet)




God, I'm glad I put her on block.

Yeah, we're in a period of "enlightenment now", poor people forced to buy insurance or be fined while their tax dollars go to building hospitals in foreign countries.

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Profile   Post #: 60
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