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RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/4/2010 1:53:04 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

I agree with Prime Minister, if they don't like it they can lump it. Additionally, in those days the founding fathers did not have to deal with cowardly suicide bombers. I'm sure they would have been less sympathetic if they had to deal with terrorists.


Really? I think a lot of what was done to chase the British out of your country would be called terrorism if insurgents were doing it in an occupied nation now.

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RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/4/2010 1:56:42 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Someone should have explained that to the Puritans and the Quakers.


Would you not say that in the whole over time they are a very small percentage of the total number of emigrants... And would you not say they were in the forefront of fighting slavery regardless the religion of the slaves they helped?

Butch



No, I would not.

This dramatically shaped America into what it became, quite different from Europe in this regard.



What religious denomination where the puritans?

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Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/4/2010 1:58:43 PM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Brain I hope you are not being facetious because if you are not I’m glad to finally agree with you…It is a pleasure.

Butch


_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Brain)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/4/2010 1:59:06 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Various raving mad denominations that felt they were being oppressed by sane people in Europe.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/4/2010 2:08:27 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Various raving mad denominations that felt they were being oppressed by sane people in Europe.


lol... It is important to know because I wanted to see if Musicmystery was correct...I have no objection to being wrong and would admit if I were. I looked up the religious affiliations of the forefathers...of the 204 only 7 were Quakers...far from a huge influence. But the Puritans may be if I knew what their church name was. The vast majority of founders were Anglican that I thought was a religion the puritans thought did not go far enough in change from Catholicism.

If this is the case the puritans had little to no influence on our Constitution. But they could represent another block that I don’t know of.

Butch


< Message edited by kdsub -- 1/4/2010 2:09:19 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/4/2010 2:12:46 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		I don't think the vast majority were Anglican. They were mostly pretty happy to stay in Britain. That said, I don't think most of the Puritan element were british in the first place, didn't they tend to be the Scandinavian and German colonists?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/4/2010 2:20:31 PM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		The Episcopal Church is the American province of the Anglican Communion...and 88 of the 204 so called founding fathers were Episcopalians. The largest single group.

HERE is one link..

Butch


< Message edited by kdsub -- 1/4/2010 2:25:54 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/4/2010 2:30:24 PM   
Moonhead


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Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Fair enough. I always thought the episcopalians were a separate group, the same as the pentecostalans or whoever. My mistake.
(and thanks for the link. That's interesting.)

< Message edited by Moonhead -- 1/4/2010 2:32:28 PM >

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/6/2010 10:39:03 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The Episcopal Church is the American province of the Anglican Communion...and 88 of the 204 so called founding fathers were Episcopalians. The largest single group.

HERE is one link..

Butch



I'm going to have to call bullshit on that number, their chart doesn't even have a box for deist.

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/6/2010 10:52:59 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The Episcopal Church is the American province of the Anglican Communion...and 88 of the 204 so called founding fathers were Episcopalians. The largest single group.

HERE is one link..

Butch



Most members (not even a majority) rules which religion is precisely what they specifically avoided in the new Constitution.

In fact, in the bill of rights, specified freedom to practice whatever religion was codified.

Why does such an excellent break with previous oppression so bother some present day Protestants? This isn't Northern Ireland.





< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/6/2010 10:54:50 AM >

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RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/6/2010 11:42:15 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The Episcopal Church is the American province of the Anglican Communion...and 88 of the 204 so called founding fathers were Episcopalians. The largest single group.

HERE is one link..

Butch



Most members (not even a majority) rules which religion is precisely what they specifically avoided in the new Constitution.

In fact, in the bill of rights, specified freedom to practice whatever religion was codified.

Why does such an excellent break with previous oppression so bother some present day Protestants? This isn't Northern Ireland.







I have no quarrel with you on that point...I was just trying to show that Puritans and Quakers did not have a huge influence on the early US formation. Or during the huge expansions that replaced Native Americans…In fact remember it was my contention that it was more economic factors that guided the expansion not religion.

What I am saying is Christianity was not the guiding force of the expansion…but a desire for land, resources and the money it could produce.

Butch


_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/6/2010 11:52:03 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The Episcopal Church is the American province of the Anglican Communion...and 88 of the 204 so called founding fathers were Episcopalians. The largest single group.

HERE is one link..

Butch



I'm going to have to call bullshit on that number, their chart doesn't even have a box for deist.


I did not find the list on religious affiliations on just one site...I found them on many…do the research yourself...I found none listing themselves as deist.

But I'm not sure you could not be both a Deist..." a belief in God with no direct intervention and a member of another denomination...but again you will have to show me at least three links showing this to be true because I found at least 8 links showing within reasonable error the religious denomination of the forefathers.

Again they could be both…I am a Christian but not so absolutely sure God intervenes on a personal level…I pray it to be true and ask forgiveness for my doubts…but you could say I was a Deist as well.

Butch




_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/6/2010 1:01:15 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I don't think the vast majority were Anglican. They were mostly pretty happy to stay in Britain. That said, I don't think most of the Puritan element were british in the first place, didn't they tend to be the Scandinavian and German colonists?



Oliver Crowmell and associates were Puritans....as was John Locke.....

Calvinism was the earliest form of Puritanism (and probably the most durable of the Protestant sects). Set up in Switzerland by a Frenchmen and spread through Northern Europe.

In terms of Britain - Puritanism has proved more durable in Scotland when compared with England.....and I'd imagine more durable in the US too with laws banning gambling and alcohol etc.

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RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/6/2010 1:27:59 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Various raving mad denominations that felt they were being oppressed by sane people in Europe.



They were strict - banning all forms of entertainment (gambling/dancing/drinking/even colourful clothes) - and had the idea that your lot is mapped out from you from the day you are born - you can't change it but the way you live your life will give a clue to those folk headed for the New Jerusalem (which flew in the face of the Roman Catholic and Church of England view that all people are capable of salvation). A bit gloomy to say the least.

Puritanism is the religion of Scotland....a country that has sent missionaries/teachers/engineers around the world and has punched far above its weight in influencing the world (pound for pound up there with the best 'em). In fact thrift/abstince/industry/investing in schools and hospitals are the more positive corner-stones of Puritanism. Oh and the Puritans insisted on the separation of Church and State (I doubt other religions did at that time).

So - in the Puritans you have the religion of Scotland/the voices of the founding fathers of British North America/and some influence in England/France/Germany/the Netherlands.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/6/2010 2:25:04 PM   
mcbride


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EbonyWood

You need to look at the OP more carefully. The remarks were not said by Kevin Rudd, who is currently PM, left leaning and 1000 times more tolerant than Howard. He is probably the most tolerant leader Australia has had for 100 years.The email contains quotes from EX Prime Minister Howard, at one of those god awful speaking engagements.
 
To those who have said these are the words of anyone in office, he has been out of office for over 2 years. None of this was said by anyone in office.


Not said by Howard, either. A quick check with Snopes shows that they're from some nutbar in Georgia.

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RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/6/2010 2:32:30 PM   
EbonyWood


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride

quote:

ORIGINAL: EbonyWood

You need to look at the OP more carefully. The remarks were not said by Kevin Rudd, who is currently PM, left leaning and 1000 times more tolerant than Howard. He is probably the most tolerant leader Australia has had for 100 years.The email contains quotes from EX Prime Minister Howard, at one of those god awful speaking engagements.
 
To those who have said these are the words of anyone in office, he has been out of office for over 2 years. None of this was said by anyone in office.


Not said by Howard, either. A quick check with Snopes shows that they're from some nutbar in Georgia.



That doesnt surprise me. It has hastily thrown together hate email stamped all over it. Misattribution, distortion and fearmongering are the hallmarks of xenophobes.

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RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/6/2010 5:42:48 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
I did not find the list on religious affiliations on just one site...I found them on many…do the research yourself...

Were the other ones christian nation propaganda sites? The christian nation movement has been putting out a lot of falsified quotes and misinformation about the religious affiliation of the founders. While I'm not familiar with the religious stances of all our founding fathers I do know that I'm being fed bullshit when for instance Thomas Jefferson is listed as an Episcopalian. He wrote his own version of the bible and claimed that he was his own sect, at the very least that should get his denomination listed as other.
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
I found none listing themselves as deist.

What about Thomas Paine?

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RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/6/2010 6:45:29 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
I found none listing themselves as deist.


 The site you linked even admits that Benjamin Franklin was a deist while it counts him as an Episcopalian.....that's just messed up.

"Benjamin Franklin was raised as an Episcopalian but was a Deist as an adult. "

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RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/6/2010 8:36:33 PM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH
They weren't strutting, they were telling people who wanted to come to Australia only to change it to leave.
Anyone CAN assimilate, they just need a reason to, rather than expect their failure to assimilate to be coddled.

And then you finish your message with, "The people that don't fit MY way of thinking should leave!"
Were you intentionally being ironic?

Seems there isn't much difference between John Howard and Kevin Rudd sadly.

I always thought the immigrants to Australia were Christians, you’d think they’d be able to dig a little deeper and find some tolerance considering the origins of the nation.

edit: -h


Seems similar to when you have relatives come and stay with you. At their house they may do things a little differently so you try and help them get acclimated to your way. But that shit only goes so far. When they start telling you how things should be done and "we do it this way at home and so should you" then it's time for them to go back home and do it their way. When you come to someone else's home they have no obligation to change anything for you. Nor do they have any obligation to let you come.

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Wrong Theocracy - 1/6/2010 8:51:59 PM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
I did not find the list on religious affiliations on just one site...I found them on many…do the research yourself...

Were the other ones christian nation propaganda sites? The christian nation movement has been putting out a lot of falsified quotes and misinformation about the religious affiliation of the founders. While I'm not familiar with the religious stances of all our founding fathers I do know that I'm being fed bullshit when for instance Thomas Jefferson is listed as an Episcopalian. He wrote his own version of the bible and claimed that he was his own sect, at the very least that should get his denomination listed as other.
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
I found none listing themselves as deist.

What about Thomas Paine?



I missed nothing...did you not read my post...sometimes I think you read half a post then comment out of ignorance...Paine was a Quaker then later in life expressed doubts of his religion...Thomas Jefferson was raised Episcopalian...then later in life he expressed a wish that a he may have wanted to join a Unitarian church that does not believe in the trinity. He never said he was a deist... and he never joined that church...Others said they thought he may be a deist but he never expressed it. Both could have been deist just as I said I had doubts.

Then more then even today you did not succeed in politics without having a religious affiliation. You have not shown me a list of our founding fathers that claimed in public with their own words that they were deist…but I do believe there were as there are today.

Many of our early presidents were accused by others of being deists but they themselves never said they were while in public service that I can find.

You can be both a member of a religious denomination and still be a deist...can you understand that?

Butch




< Message edited by kdsub -- 1/6/2010 8:53:06 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 100
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