quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

The problem with any defence system is that it's usually based on fighting off the last attempted attack.

Hijackers purposely flying planes into buildings was never considered, we all assumed most hijacks would be resolved with a ransom demand on an airstrip.

What can I tell you? The world was naive, we didn't think people were capable of it and so yes anyone could have got away with it.

I think you are forgetting how different the world was in terms of how we saw threats back then.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Epgah,
Even tho you have only been back a couple of posts it's a shame to see that you havent grown up any and are still a racist despicable pig.
no repsonse needed,I wont see it.
If I get mod spanked..it was worth it

quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH
BUT the new immigrants feel "entitled" to take advantage of everything the society they're invading has to offer, and THEN force their old ways onto it.
If it was worth fleeing from, it's not worth reenacting in the new place!
I can provide you links if you don't believe me, for whatever reason?

Let me help you out- here is a picture of the new immigrants who are forcing their old ways upon the people whom they have invaded:

That's true, but remember, they were here longer than we were, BUT they weren't necessarily there first. Why did they come across the Bering Strait, if not to expand? And were or were they not fighting amongst themselves, especially the militant, imperialistic...AZTECS! A human-sacrifice cult, demanding "tribute" from lesser tribes in LIVES...Like the legendary sacrifices to the Minotaur.

And again, you must've skipped the first line: The Indians had no civilization for Pilgrims to mooch off of, no ERs for the invaders if they got hurt, no free schools for the invaders' kids...Hell, even the Americans didn't believe in welfare back then, as exemplified by John "Tough Love" Smith, "He Who Does Not Work, Shall Not Eat"

SL4V3M4YB3, incorrect. If their ways were so much better, they would find a blank land to settle, rather than one with a civilization already there...
Or do you consider a nomadic tent-dweller a "civilization", even without technology?

Also remember, your beloved Indians didn't just stand by and let Americans civilize the place, they FOUGHT! They lost badly, but they still fought. Nowadays, though, it's considered "racist" to fight people who invade your country, want to leech off what you and your ancestors built, THEN tell you how to do it.
IF our way was so horrible, we'd have nothing worth leeching off of, and they'd simply push us away by force. We would fight back and be overwhelmed by superior technology.

You want to make us feel guilty for building up a civilization where was once blank land? Fine. Just give up every benefit you get from our technology and civilization. No more comfy houses with furniture and air-conditioning, go back to living in a tent. Find a nice stream, because running water is part of civilization. Oh, and if you get sick, hope you can find the right herbs in time, because our Evil Tech also includes medicine!

Of course, I very seriously doubt even the most FANATIC primitive would make that trade. I have a friend who is the head of an Indian Reservation, and he says anyone trying to steal his technology, even to return them to their tribal ways, will get a .44 piece of his technology. Oddly, that vaguely sounded like a threat...I must've misinterpreted!

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
This type argument is always a flawed argument. Remember these very same, invaded people, as you put it displaced other groups of people as they multiplied and needed more land.

They were no more noble or moral then the Europeans that displaced them.

I am not saying it is right...or could not have been done different but I do contend one group was no more at fault than the other.

The purpose wasn't to make Americans feel bad, or guilty.
The purpose was to show that we suddenly now appreciate the benefits of resisting foreign influence, when it just didn't seem to be a big deal when we were forcing Native Americans/ Aborigines to adopt our religion and culture.

Yes, Sharia law is wrong; adopting prayers in schools is wrong; setting up a cross or manger scene on the courthouse steps is wrong.
These things are all wrong because they promote one religion over another. In America and the Western cultures we have a secular democracy, where the shared values are not of a specific religion, but of a vision of freedom of individual conscience.

So when Howard argued that Australia was a "Christian" country, he was showing that he failed to understand what a secular democracy is about; he seemed to be fine with religious triumphalism, as long as it was Christian triumphalism.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

My point is that most of the horrors of the past- the slaughter of the Native Americans, for instance- was the product of this triumphalist thinking.
Triumphalist theology was that the European Christian culture was superior, and that nothing else was deserving of respect. The Spanish missionaries behaved very much like Islamic militants- they forcibly converted anyone they could, and forced their culture upon them.

Over the 500 years since Columbus, we have painfully worked our way to the point of a secular democracy, where respect for all cultures is paramount.

Howard's Christian Uber Alles sentiments are a direct throwback to the religious wars of the Crusades; It doesn't represent any advancement over Sharia law, just a different version of it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

My point is that most of the horrors of the past- the slaughter of the Native Americans, for instance- was the product of this triumphalist thinking.
Triumphalist theology was that the European Christian culture was superior, and that nothing else was deserving of respect. The Spanish missionaries behaved very much like Islamic militants- they forcibly converted anyone they could, and forced their culture upon them.

Over the 500 years since Columbus, we have painfully worked our way to the point of a secular democracy, where respect for all cultures is paramount.

Howard's Christian Uber Alles sentiments are a direct throwback to the religious wars of the Crusades; It doesn't represent any advancement over Sharia law, just a different version of it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Someone should have explained that to the Puritans and the Quakers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

BUT...don't you respect someone who acts, and governs, and means exactly what he says? He represents the feelings of his people and it is his duty to follow those feelings.

I saw nothing in his speech that was racist in any way.

Butch

quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

They weren't strutting, they were telling people who wanted to come to Australia only to change it to leave.
Anyone CAN assimilate, they just need a reason to, rather than expect their failure to assimilate to be coddled.

And then you finish your message with, "The people that don't fit MY way of thinking should leave!"
Were you intentionally being ironic?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Someone should have explained that to the Puritans and the Quakers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

BUT...don't you respect someone who acts, and governs, and means exactly what he says? He represents the feelings of his people and it is his duty to follow those feelings.

I saw nothing in his speech that was racist in any way.

Butch

Well, Butch, then every teenager is a budding world leader.

This isn't leadership. There's nothing inspiring to any noble course. It's zenophobic pandering.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Someone should have explained that to the Puritans and the Quakers.

Would you not say that in the whole over time they are a very small percentage of the total number of emigrants... And would you not say they were in the forefront of fighting slavery regardless the religion of the slaves they helped?

Butch

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

BUT...don't you respect someone who acts, and governs, and means exactly what he says? He represents the feelings of his people and it is his duty to follow those feelings.

I saw nothing in his speech that was racist in any way.

Butch

Well, Butch, then every teenager is a budding world leader.

This isn't leadership. There's nothing inspiring to any noble course. It's zenophobic pandering.

Not at all...they did not have to vote for him...they believe the same as him

Butch

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

BUT...don't you respect someone who acts, and governs, and means exactly what he says? He represents the feelings of his people and it is his duty to follow those feelings.

I saw nothing in his speech that was racist in any way.

Butch

Well, Butch, then every teenager is a budding world leader.

This isn't leadership. There's nothing inspiring to any noble course. It's zenophobic pandering.

Not at all...they did not have to vote for him...they believe the same as him

Butch

This is ridiculous logic.

Whatever Obama says is what Americans believe, because he was elected, right?

Come on.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I get group-posted nonsense from the Internet in my home email from time to time...usually jokes or unusual pictures. However, I received this one today:

"America, Canada, all Europe ..... needs a President like this.

"Prime Minister Kevin Rudd - Australia

"Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.

"Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques.

"Quote: 'IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians.'

"'This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom. We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, Learn the Language!'

"'Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.'

"'We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.'

"'This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.'
'If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.' Maybe if we circulate this , American citizens will find the backbone to start speaking and voicing the same truths.
If you agree, please SEND THIS ON."

I usually ignore this stuff. Not today. My group reply:

America was founded by a group of very different people whose early leaders were all too familiar with the tyrannical role religion played in government. Even though these leaders argued and argued fiercely about many, many issues, they were clear on this point--the new nation would have a government separate from religion, ruling a country where its citizens were free to practice whatever religion they choose. This was the Age of Enlightenment, and the law of reason would guide the new state.

19th and 20th century evangelicals felt differently. In the early 20th century, they even succeeded in adding "In God We Trust" to the nation's currency, a move religious president Theodore Roosevelt strongly opposed as sacrilege. Today, people insist, against all evidence, that America's founders designed a Christian nation, despite their rigorous omission of the mention of Christ from any government documents. Some people today, ignoring both historical tyranny and modern day examples, wish to create a theocracy in the U.S. It is a horrible mistake, and goes against everything this nation was founded upon. It is also an aberration against religion.

In 19th century America, the new railroads needed workers. They also need towns and people to populate them along the new rail routes. Since the U.S. didn't have sufficient population, in numbers or willing participants, they invited immigrants. Literally--ran massive ad campaigns to sell Europeans on coming to America. There were literally more Irish in New York City than in Dublin. Town after town of German immigrants spread across the midwest. And in darker times, America became a refuge for the scientists and artists and social leaders facing death in their own countries--immigrants who helped change a backwater country into the center for the arts and science it is today.

Every business of even moderate size today does business overseas. These are our markets. We are citizens of the world. It makes sense to talk calmly and reasonably to other nations, even as we keep the ability to use stronger methods when necessary. Arrogant cowboys strutting about telling the rest of the world to go to hell, we're Americans, is neither patriotic, effective, nor reasonable. It only proves to the rest of the world that we cannot be reasoned with, that the only thing we listen to are nuclear weapons, and they'd better hurry to get some.

Mindless blather circulating the Internet has replaced thinking. If America faces any particular difficulty, it's that. Legal immigrants of varied backgrounds are no threat whatsoever. Who cares if we have multilingual people? Anyone who thinks they deliberately sit around refusing to learn English is an idiot--this would only make their life harder. I have seen many of these people, struggling to finish a college degree in a language they are still learning while working crappy full time jobs and living with their families and a few others in just a few rooms. And they do it. They fricking successfully do it! America needs more people like that, people with courage and determination, people with the will to make their lives and their world better than it is. More people with real spirit, and less mouths bitching on the Internet.

The message also ignores the reality of the millions of Muslims who live in the U.S.--doctors and scientists and professors and every other profession, just like everyone else. They don't practice Sharia law here. They don't try to, and they don't want to. They see themselves as Americans, and they follow the law of the land.

Theocratic, jingoistic Christians in America should follow their example or get out. Australia seems a possibility.

This crap angers me. Stop it. Use your brains and think, for Christ's sake.

And it does. Nothing politically correct about it--just mindless blather that people are listening to and starting to believe.