RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela

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Sanity -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/31/2010 10:50:11 AM)
You're right, he is a South American wanna-be Socialist dictator. I stand corrected...

AnimusRex -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/31/2010 11:10:37 AM)
Actually, I am more with Sanity here- odd as that may sound. Chavez was elected, but I don't consider the second election to be terribly fair or well run; he has used brute force to shut downopposition media, trampled on property rights and essentially used the government power as a bully to enforce his will. It may not be entirely correct to say that country is a dictatorship, but it is moving swiftly in that direction. Which is a more interesting point in my view. There are and always have been dictatorships around the world, half of whom we have friendly relations with. The current fixation of the American conservative movement with Venezuela seems to be a case of concern trolling, of feigning interest in the rights of the Venezuelan people, when there was precious little shown in the decades previous, when they were unjustly oppressed by the oligarchy that ran that country. Does Venezuela pose some sort of threat to America? Not really. Are there some strategic American interests involved here? Not that I can see. Why all the concern for human rights in Venezuela versus say, China? or Egypt? Or Pakistan? or Colombia? But going into hysterics over human rights in China would be rather uncomfortable for both political parties, since we are now wedded at the hip to them. Venezuela is a tempting target for concern trolling, since it is one of the last nations that talks in Socialist language, and uses anti-American rhetoric. Unlike China, no one in here is going to have to stop shopping at Wal-Mart to demonstrate solidarity with the Venezuelan people. Unlike Egypt, Venezuela holds no strategic interest as an ally, unlike Colombia, Venezuela isn't helping us with the war on drugs. There isn't any cost to Chavez hatred, there isn't any price to pay for expressing support for the anti-Chavez forces, so it becomes the ultimate in free grace, of moral preening on the cheap. Like the Left's fixation with South Africa in the 1980's, the Right's fixation with Venezuela is entirely about our domestic politics, about posturing as the friend of the oppressed, rather than reflective of any genuine concern.

thompsonx -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/31/2010 11:12:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity You're right, he is a South American wanna-be Socialist dictator. I stand corrected... Now you get to explane the elected dictator part. Then you will be able to stand corrected again HST

vincentML -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/31/2010 1:16:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AnimusRex Actually, I am more with Sanity here- odd as that may sound. Chavez was elected, but I don't consider the second election to be terribly fair or well run; he has used brute force to shut downopposition media, trampled on property rights and essentially used the government power as a bully to enforce his will. It may not be entirely correct to say that country is a dictatorship, but it is moving swiftly in that direction. <BIG SNIP HERE> There isn't any cost to Chavez hatred, there isn't any price to pay for expressing support for the anti-Chavez forces, so it becomes the ultimate in free grace, of moral preening on the cheap. Like the Left's fixation with South Africa in the 1980's, the Right's fixation with Venezuela is entirely about our domestic politics, about posturing as the friend of the oppressed, rather than reflective of any genuine concern. Rex, first you are with Sanity. Then, at the end you are well maybe not. The only reason I can see why Chavez as a dictator is a problem to us is because he is not "our" dictator. Beyond that there is a swing to the left in Latin America that makes some here uncomfortable, although it is not really our business beyond humanitarian concerns. Both in South Africa and in Venezuela people of color have been supressed for quite along while. I say let them have their revolutions and sort it all out for themselves.

AnimusRex -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/31/2010 1:24:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Rex, first you are with Sanity. Then, at the end you are well maybe not. To clarify- I don't see Chavez's election as entirely legitimate; Like I said, he is not a free and fairly elected representative of the people. Sanity is correct on this point. But its not so simple as to say he is a "dictator", and yes, I agree that the oligarchy that preceded him was a rotten piece of work also. So while he deserves plenty of criticism for his abuses, I would stop short of saying it is a dictatorship. My bigger point was that reducing the entire globe into a simple Good/Bad framework is stupid. Thats why I brought up China; no one disputes that it IS a dictatorship, yet no one is suggesting we mount angry protests, or work to bring down their government. Mostly this is because there is no domestic political benefit to it, for anyone. And Americans have this terrible habit of seeing every corner of the world, only through our own domestic politics.

thompsonx -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/31/2010 1:59:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AnimusRex quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Rex, first you are with Sanity. Then, at the end you are well maybe not. To clarify- I don't see Chavez's election as entirely legitimate; Like I said, he is not a free and fairly elected representative of the people. Sanity is correct on this point. But its not so simple as to say he is a "dictator", and yes, I agree that the oligarchy that preceded him was a rotten piece of work also. So while he deserves plenty of criticism for his abuses, I would stop short of saying it is a dictatorship. My bigger point was that reducing the entire globe into a simple Good/Bad framework is stupid. Thats why I brought up China; no one disputes that it IS a dictatorship, yet no one is suggesting we mount angry protests, or work to bring down their government. Mostly this is because there is no domestic political benefit to it, for anyone. And Americans have this terrible habit of seeing every corner of the world, only through our own domestic politics. Was there a time not so long ago when the cry for war with both Russia and China could be heard on a regular basis. Perhaps we have found it more profitable to pick on smaller prey. HST

AnimusRex -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/31/2010 2:07:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx Was there a time not so long ago when the cry for war with both Russia and China could be heard on a regular basis. Perhaps we have found it more profitable to pick on smaller prey. Well that, and we discovered how nice it is to get tee shirts 3 for ten bucks at Walmart. The yellow hordes have their uses.

vincentML -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/31/2010 4:21:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AnimusRex quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx Was there a time not so long ago when the cry for war with both Russia and China could be heard on a regular basis. Perhaps we have found it more profitable to pick on smaller prey. Well that, and we discovered how nice it is to get tee shirts 3 for ten bucks at Walmart. The yellow hordes have their uses. Yes, that is the case now. But someday we may be shining their shoes. I am told we are still the world's leading manufacturer of quality goods. Do you think such will be the case in the future? (pick your time span) ThompsonX is correct but wasn't that an ideological and territorial cry? Are we not now competing for resources? I am told China is doing quite well in gathering mineral resources around the World. Isn't there a danger there, given a dictatorship at the helm?

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/31/2010 4:35:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML I am told we are still the world's leading manufacturer of quality goods. Are we? I am hard pressed to think of anything other than computers/chips where we still lead the world.

vincentML -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/31/2010 8:42:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML I am told we are still the world's leading manufacturer of quality goods. Are we? I am hard pressed to think of anything other than computers/chips where we still lead the world. Yes, chips are right up there.... industrial machines....electrical apparatus... civilian aircraft engines ... measuring, testing, control instruments ....telecommunications equip ...computer accessories....industrial engines... medicinal equipment ...civilian aircraft ....drilling/oil field equip.... and pharmaceuticals http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/Press-Release/current_press_release/exh7.pdf I realize this list does not prove my statement but actually the statement was given to me by a former trade rep for the State Dept who lives downstairs. I will query him further next time I have lunch with him.

Termyn8or -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/31/2010 9:14:00 PM)
FR First of all to address the election debate. Who thinks US elections are fair ? Who think election fraud is not going on ? Who thinks that We The People actually choose our own leaders from the best and brightest among the People ? A show of hands please ? Now on to Hugo's totally repressive, hubris enabled, delusion of graneur enhahaced evil suppression of opposing viewpoints via suppression of a licensed media outlet. In case you didn't know, media outlets are licensed in the US as well, and within the provisions if it is found that said outlet is not acting in the public interest their license will be revoked at will. The TV station/network which got the axe had refused to report the news when there was a major upheaval in the country, spurred on by our CIA. They instead ran kids shows, cartoons and such. And the federalis didn't just blow up the station like SOME people (CIA, Mossad et alii), there license was denied for renewal. This government, therefore the President right here has the exact same legal authotiy, it is all in just who decides what is in the public interest. And if they really wanted to hurt Venezuela, they would do it in the wallet. That's their way. The US govt moans about him, and buys how much oil from there ? Venezuela is also in better financial shape than we are right now and it might have something to do with the govt there giving some thought to the good of the people. Pull that love it or leave it shit on me and I actually do leave, Venezuela is among my top choices. Surely I won't like everything down there, but at this point in time, the US is going down the tubes fast. But I don't cut and run so easily, it's just that if I had to it would not be to Europe. Yup, let's put on a big show for the sheeple. We are the saviours ! We are here to help you ! Funny how THE PEOPLE in that country kicked our guys out within 48 hours. And we can't bomb them either because they got some BIG friends in the world. What do we buy, perhaps a third of their oil. What about the people who buy the other two thirds ? And there is no mention of worrying about bumfuct Venezuela in the Constitution, but that is another subject. So again they have people chasing their tail. I know it. There is always something, something to divert attention from their nefarious acts. I KNOW who the bad guys are, and I know they always point their fingers at other bad guys. But our bad guys are alot worse than the other bad guys. I supported Obama, but seriously, give me a guy like Chavez. At least he is competent and doesn't have to watch the JFK assassination right after inauguration in a smoke filled room. Fuck all this. All these PTB do is accuse people of crimes which pale in magnitude to their own, and that way they get away with it again and again and now I don't believe a fucking word they say. T

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/31/2010 9:18:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML I am told we are still the world's leading manufacturer of quality goods. Are we? I am hard pressed to think of anything other than computers/chips where we still lead the world. Yes, chips are right up there.... industrial machines....electrical apparatus... civilian aircraft engines ... measuring, testing, control instruments ....telecommunications equip ...computer accessories....industrial engines... medicinal equipment ...civilian aircraft ....drilling/oil field equip.... and pharmaceuticals http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/Press-Release/current_press_release/exh7.pdf I realize this list does not prove my statement but actually the statement was given to me by a former trade rep for the State Dept who lives downstairs. I will query him further next time I have lunch with him. I dont buy superiority in most of those. We may be competitive, but not superior. the only one I could agree with somewhat readily is drilling/oil equipment. Telecom we are clearly behind the French. So much of Lucent was inferior to Alcatel's existing technology they were bought for a song. Pharma there is no way we are demonstrably superior. Airbus dominates civilian aircraft orders, though I dont know the extent that is attributable to the engines. Medicinal equipment we may lead in R&D but manufacturing superiority? I tend to doubt it. Edit: Looking at aircraft engines, I doubt there is demonstrable superiority of Boeing over Rolls Royce. While Airbus uses both, Rolls Royce has a larger share, and Boeing even uses Rolls Royce engines in some of its own aircraft. The fictious "war dividend" and the resulting consolidation of defense manufacturers hurt us in non-military applications as well, since there was so much shared technology.

Moonhead -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (2/1/2010 5:14:56 AM)
Isn't most American electronics manufacturing contracted out to plants in China these days? It's a long while since any laptops were assembled in the 'States.

Termyn8or -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (2/1/2010 10:17:33 AM)
"Isn't most American electronics manufacturing contracted out to plants in China these days?" Yes but I think the point was that alot of the engineering happens here. But then alot of that is done by immigrants, many working on H1B visas. Well, at least most of them pay US taxes. This is of course significant, might constitute 2 or near 3% of the GDP ! The rest is carried by the retail/sevice sector and EEEEKKK banking. I might still retire in Venezuela, then I can say I loved it AND left it. Like my boss who is still in love with his ex, but had to get rid of her because she is a total drunk and he couldn't stand it anymore. Now that I think of it, that is a very good analogy. T

AnimusRex -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (2/1/2010 8:36:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or I might still retire in Venezuela, then I can say I loved it AND left it. Like my boss who is still in love with his ex, but had to get rid of her because she is a total drunk and he couldn't stand it anymore. Now that I think of it, that is a very good analogy. Extremely good analogy. Bill Maher had a good riff on conservatives talking about America are like men talking about their ex-wives, alternating between bawling about how much they loved her, then sneering about how she was such a whore and they hate her fucking guts.

Termyn8or -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (2/2/2010 1:55:07 AM)
Indeed Rex. Just ask Merc. He is going to Italy for very similar reasons. I don't hate this country and I don't think he does either. But there comes a time when you can do nothing, and the walls are closing in like an old episode of Batman the series from the 1970s. Do something or die. I might as well be upfront, it has gotten me in trouble but I don't think it will this time. I used to have some disdain for European immigrants, among which are my own family. I got the attitude for a time like "Why did you cut and run from your homeland instead of staying and fighting the problem ?". Yes that was my attitude. But in time I came to realize, even though some small personal battles can be won against the system, overall they tend to win. You can't fight in a rigged game forever. There comes a time when it is right to quit, it is right to look out for number one. Time to take care of one's own. My whole attitude has morphed in the last couple of decades, more than once. Some have attitudes etched in stone because certain sources are considered gospel. But if you go worldwide and look at Hugo Chavez Frias, and see what the entire world has to say, he has done nothing wrong. One quick glance at US history makes Chavez look like Jesus Christ. And he has the support of the majority of the People down there, which is true democracy in action. Remember when that anti-Semitic guy was elected in Austria a few years ago ? "They" called it a slap in the face to democracy. How the hell does that add up ? Apparently the democracy we are exporting is new and improved from the version envisioned by the inventors of the system to say the least. So most likely when the CIA tried to engineer a coup down there, the sheeple were impelled to send money to those poor oppressed Venezwelans who quickly bought ammo to shoot our own CIA guys who were there ostensibly to liberate them. And when word got out we were going to invade Iraq, they handed out weapons to the people, while the government here was constantly trying to take ours away. They might fool all of the people all the time, except one. Me. I am Polak with 49 years under my belt. They can't fool me, at least not anymore. I might not be as smart as they are, but I am close enough. T

vincentML -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (2/3/2010 9:08:44 AM)
Term; There is a society where the fix is not in? I could not imagine living as an expat in some foreign land. I would be awfully lonely for my culture. But, to each his own.

SeekingAZ -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (2/10/2010 2:45:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Bill Gates doesn't own the United States, especially not the same way that Hugo Chavez is taking ownership of Venezuela. Bill Gates doesn't even own the computer or software industries, only a fraction of the software industry. You don't have to pay Bill Gates if you don't want to either, there is good open source software out there thats completely free. But if you live under a socialist dictator, good luck not paying him. And the United States government regulates Microsoft, they're constantly doing battle. Look at Ma Bell for an example of how the rule of law is a limiting factor for corporations. But when government is the corporation, you are totally screwed, quite possibly until the end of time (given today's circumstances). The US pretty much stopped messing with Microsoft once the company started making big donations to both political parties. I don't care for Gate's business policies but for a long time he refused to pay Congress it's protection money. That I admired about him.

SeekingAZ -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (2/10/2010 2:48:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rockspider It must have become quite obvious that neither socialisme nor capitalism is the ultimative form of government. I do believe in a mix of the two systems with a strong dose of democrazy would be the ultimate system. However as everybody knows a ship cannot be sailed by democrazy. Which in reality can be said about a country as well. But then who would be the perfect leader? Well i for one would not like to charged with finding him. You believe in a mix of freedom (capitalism) and ever expanding government control of your life (socialism) ? How is that supposed to work ?

SeekingAZ -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (2/10/2010 2:53:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven It's a shame, really. I like the aims of socialism. But it's been an abject failure when implemented in Argentina, Cuba, Russia... There are two drawbacks as I see it. 1. The profit motive is not used, which takes a lot of drive out of the economy. 2. A strong central government is necessary. So you have bureaucrats who don't give a crap about the economy and the welfare of the people, who are granted the power to stifle economic growth. 'Course, that's not particularly relevant here because Chavez could ruin a strong capitalist economy too. He's a strongman/buffoon. I'm not sure that socialism was a complete failure in Cuba. I wouldn't want to live there, but I do get the impression that the country's doing a lot better than it was when it was still being run by the mob. I'm also unsure how many of the country's economic problems are innate and how many are down to sanctions that have been imposed by America. Yes, because governments that kill thousand upon thousands of those that disagree with them is a good thing.

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