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RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters - 1/16/2010 1:20:56 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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Heretic, I'm on a veteran's pension and we make peanuts compared to those people!
I lived on ships which aren't built for comfort gone for months at a time doing very dangerous shit and working 80 hour work weeks 7 days a week until we got back to port.
And those pukes make $80k a year for doing secretarial work, for sitting in a/c offices writing things on papers and they get to go home every night!
And they all have some type of "degree", to do secretarial work! To send each other "memos", to have "meetings." To make out "reports" and "studies" that no-one cares about and probably no-one ever reads anyway.
Ask them to go out and shovel the walkway after it snows and they'll fill out 8 "discrimination" reports or they'll shovel for five minutes and be out on "disability" for two years because they hurt their back!
They should be in the Gulf of Maine on a '95 foot C.G. patrol boat in January and be breaking ice off the boat with baseball bats and shoveling it over the side for two hours in 0 degree wx with a -15 windchill factor so that the boat doesn't capsize into 35 degree water. And when that's done you "go back to work."
There's too many people doing paperwork and not enough people "shovelling!"

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 21

RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters - 1/16/2010 1:27:42 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

While you are at it why not just set up a Plantation system and reinstate good old slavery? The slaves were mandatory draftees as well. Whatever happened to the cause of individual liberty? Bleh!

LOL. A period of mandatory national service is hardly slavery, Vince. Plantations? Are you trying to throw the race card and failing miserably?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 22

RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters - 1/16/2010 2:21:57 PM

DarkSteven

Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I have two suggestions for getting this problem under control. The first ain't likely, the second is pretty radical change at a fundamental level.

And I have a third.

Develop an Efficiency Index for government programs. It's the amount of benefits disbursed, divided by the cost of doing so.

So if you had a public assistance program that gave out $2 mil a year in PA and required twenty people at $100K average salary plus bennies a year, the efficiency index would be 50%.

This would address both the compensation packages of employees, and the number of them.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 23

RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters - 1/16/2010 3:34:35 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Prison guards are right at the top of my list, Lafay. Of course we are going to need some high skill positions inside the prisons, but the majority of the grunt work could be done by any old graduate of the high school football/wrestling team who has been run through a 12-week course specialized course and is subject to military discipline and good leadership. Shit, we had a guy at our local state facility earn over $200,000 in 2008 (I'll look for the article, but I'm not sure if any of the papers with online archives picked it up).

add: I couldn't find anything quickly on the guy who topped $200,000, but here is the guy who made $187,000 for 2005;
http://legacy.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060228/news_1n28guards.html

If they hired more guards there would be less overtime available.... more people in jobs....

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 24

RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters - 1/16/2010 3:37:35 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

If we really want to cure the disease, instead of just treating the worst of the symptoms, I think we need to fundamentally alter where our public servants come from. Mandatory national service. We replace the spoiled and bloated employment rolls with draftees, from the federal level, all the way down to a community services district. Patching potholes, administering the DMV eye test, writing parking tickets, guarding prison inmates... These aren't high skill jobs. It won't cover every job we need covered, but a barracks full of young people performing their national service is going to be a hell of a lot cheaper than what we are doing.

While you are at it why not just set up a Plantation system and reinstate good old slavery? The slaves were mandatory draftees as well. Whatever happened to the cause of individual liberty? Bleh!

I think we should demand mandatory service starting those approaching retirement age first and then work the way down... you know... get a pound of flesh from those who ran up the bill instead of those who have yet to charge a damn dime of it...young people shouldn't be forced to work for a debt they did not create... or that is what the right tries to scream all the time.

So Rich, when are you going to volunteer for this work program?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 25

RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters - 1/16/2010 4:02:19 PM

InvisibleBlack

Posts: 865
Joined: 7/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

To start with, we need to ban public employee unions.

While I agree with you that having more and more people working for the government rather than in the private sector isn't healthy and that government jobs being more lucrative than private sector jobs is a very unhealthy sign, I don't think that banning government unions is the solution to the problem.

I think that in the long run, we need to stop centralizing things and trying to run them from Washington D. C. - you cannot effectively manage a nation of more than 300 million people from one central point. Pushing things back out - either to the states or to local government or the private sector, will get you better results than trying to outright ban government unions in the hopes that it will somehow reverse the ongoing trend.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
If we really want to cure the disease, instead of just treating the worst of the symptoms, I think we need to fundamentally alter where our public servants come from. Mandatory national service.

I think that's a horrible idea. I find the idea of conscripting citizens to serve the central government as the ultimate expression of autocracy. I think the opportunities for corruption, graft and abuse in a forced nationwide draft to "serve" in some labor capacity would be profound.

If you want to make gaining a certain level of government benefits contingent upon service - i.e. no student grant unless you put in a year of service or some such - I would have no issue with that - as long as it was voluntary.

The last thing I want to do is hand the same group of idiots who can't balanec a budget or rebuild the World Trade Center a massive conscripted labor force to use as they see fit. I think the people running the show need a lot less power and responsibility, not more.

_____________________________

Consider the daffodil. And while you're doing that, I'll be over here, looking through your stuff.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 26

RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters - 1/16/2010 4:19:57 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

So Rich, when are you going to volunteer for this work program?

1986-1991, with a little break where I thought it was done thrown in.

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 1/16/2010 4:20:25 PM >

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 27

RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters - 1/16/2010 4:23:42 PM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

young people shouldn't be forced to work for a debt they did not create... or that is what the right tries to scream all the time

Should they be forced to work for the free education they receive? Or the roads they drive? Or the police and fire protection they receive? Or any of the other infrastructure advantages that cost money and they were just handed?

Just wondering.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 28

RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters - 1/16/2010 4:37:06 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

young people shouldn't be forced to work for a debt they did not create... or that is what the right tries to scream all the time

Should they be forced to work for the free education they receive? Or the roads they drive? Or the police and fire protection they receive? Or any of the other infrastructure advantages that cost money and they were just handed?

Just wondering.

Don't forget welfare checks and food stamps.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 29

RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters - 1/16/2010 4:47:19 PM

LafayetteLady

Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline

We disagree which is just fine, but my logic is not "nonsense."

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

This is just so much generalized garbage you are spouting. I can tell you from experience of teaching for 30 years and having responsibility for planning curriculum, implementing it by gathering all the materials for laboratory activity, evaluating student progress for more than 150 students, dealing with parental concerns and being overwhelmed by cya Adminstrative trivia, I spent plenty of long hours at home evenings and weekends hard at work. Additionally, we never asked for 100% paid benefits. All benefits were calculated as part of our salary package. You leave the impression they were some extra gravey when in fact the total dollar amount of the package depended on money made available by the State.

I see you live in Florida. Is that where you taught for 30 years? I live in New Jersey and lived in Florida for two years. The best teacher my son ever had was there. He ignored his union contract and gave his time after school and during his lunch to help his students. He was indeed a rarity and a wonderful man.

In your state, a teacher with a PhD can typically expect to max out their salary at about 50 grand a year. I agree, that is underpaid. Mind you I said "max out." In the state of New Jersey, the MEDIAN salary for a teacher WITHOUT an advanced degree is about 75K a year. Quite a difference. And yes, in NJ, those teachers at one time were bitching about having to contribute to their benefits.

You are 64 years old now, according to your profile. You entered the teaching field when it was respected and young men and women entered it to help to educate young minds. The majority of those entering the teaching field now do it because they will have summers off and lots of holidays during the year. You can tell me I'm wrong all you want, but I've spoken to more than enough of them to know that is the truth. I have a son in high school. I see what the teachers in his school do and don't do. And what they don't do is a whole lot of work at home.

For a teacher to complain about any of the work they have to do is like a nurse complaining about being around sick people. You knew what you were getting into when you started.

Let's face reality here. The reason that most people WANT a government job is for the benefits and the boat load of holidays. It takes many years for someone who works for the Department of Social Services in the state of NJ to even reach a salary of 50K a year. They go into it for 2 reasons. One to have that government job and its benefits and two to get the experience for their resume to go into private practice.

quote:

You denigrate unions for some while seeking them for others without thought that teachers and public employees would then suffer the same conditions as retail clerks. I agree that food service and retail should be unionized but teachers and public employees should not be penalized for their success.

What I said is that those unions had outlived their usefulness. Do you honestly believe that public employees and teachers salaries would suddenly plummet if they weren't able to lobby for who they wanted as governor anymore? Because a whole shitload of money from the NJEA went to trying to strong arm its members into telling them who to vote for. I never said that teaching was an easy job. But what the unions keep lobbying for is to make their job easier and has very little to do with what is best for the kids they teach.

quote:

And you don't seem to understand the reason there IS protection and there are Laws under DOL is because of the lobbying activities of Unions which you hold in contempt. You think the Federal Govt and the States and private businesses will give benefits and higher salary out of the goodness of their heart? These were hard won successes by the unions. What nonsense in your thinking!

Yes, minimum wage was won by a union. However, have you ever read the DOL laws? Because these unions didn't fight for the rights of everyone, only themselves. Most of the laws are broken into various fields of employment, so the laws for the teachers and the teamsters aren't the same for others.

The nonsense is thinking that the unions are continuing to fight for the rights of its members. They aren't. They have a totally different agenda which has nothing to do with making better working conditions.

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 30

RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters - 1/16/2010 4:59:26 PM

zephyroftheNorth

Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline

quote:

I see what the teachers in his school do and don't do. And what they don't do is a whole lot of work at home.

So you've been to all your kid's teachers' homes? You know for a fact that they do no work at home? I'd like to see your proof that they do no course prep work, no exam writing, no exam correcting. I suspect the reality is very different from what you claim.

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(in reply to LafayetteLady)

Post #: 31

RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters - 1/16/2010 4:59:58 PM

Arpig

Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline

For a really good examination of just this phenomenon read Voltaire's Bastards by John Raulston Saul.

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Post #: 32

RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters - 1/16/2010 5:55:41 PM

AnimusRex

Posts: 2165
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
The average federal salary (including benefits) is set to grow from $72,800 in 2008 to $75,419 in 2010, CBS reported. But the real action isn’t in what government employees are being paid today; it’s in what they’re being promised for tomorrow.

I am not sure where the hysteria is coming from.

First, the rise in payroll- it went up by about 5% over 2 years; is that some kind of whopping boost?

But notice it includes benefits. What that means is, the workers didn't get 5% more money in their paychecks; it meant the value of their benefits rose by some amount. Given that health insurance is their biggest benefit, which rises astronomically, the workers might have actually lost ground, depending on how much they contribute to their health plans.

But the point about pension cost is something to be taken seriously. Pensions ARE expensive, and getting more so; the single biggest ticket item in the federal budget is Medicare/ Social Security, and the single biggest cost driver in any private sector budget is health insurance plans.
Most of this is demographics- we have this enormous tsunami of Boomers who are set to reture, and fewer and fewer workers to support them.

So if you want to make an argument for altering our pension and retirement schemes- like increasing the eligibility age, or taxing the benefits, or whatever- I can get on board with that discussion.

But to leap to "We gotta destroy public employees right to collective bargaining" seems like a stretch. Like Julia, I saw the post as a general union bashing, with only a thin pretext.

< Message edited by AnimusRex -- 1/16/2010 5:56:17 PM >

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 33

RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters - 1/16/2010 6:05:16 PM

vincentML

Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

We disagree which is just fine, but my logic is not "nonsense."

Your logic may not be nonsense. I grant that was a tad offensive written in pissed off mood. Apologies. But you are generalizing from a very small data base. We were very involved with our students. I lived across the street from the high school where I worked. Hours were spent tutoring students, making phone calls and home visits. Our greatest impediments were from parents who believed their children should receive better grades despite their laziness and inability to comprehend the course material and from Administration who failed to support the teachers.

I once failed a star senior athlete because she absented herself from one third of my classes and the "F" was struck from the student's records by the Principal because she had been accepted to a sports scholarship. Wasn't even required to make up the work in summer school. And this after contact and warning to the parents.

Most of the teachers I knew were dedicated and worked hard for their students. I believe there are many who are the same today. I have not surveyed any teacher population. But I do not believe one can withstand the rigors of being on stage 25 periods a week without being motivated. It is my experience and belief that public school teaching has been devalued by the mad rush to get everyone into college whether they are motivated, capable students or not. Few care about high school when they recognize it is an easy pass into college. And hell, the colleges will take anyone, capable or not. More jobs for college professors, more money for the colleges.

You sample one high school and talk to a few other teachers perhaps and from that sample make a broad sweeping statement that teachers don't care much for the students today and the Unions are of no value. That's a terribly weak and unacceptable basis from which to draw a conclusion.

Have there been abuses by Unions and teachers? Absolutely. Have poor teachers been protected by rigid evaluation rules? Absolutely.
There is no perfection in any system. But the public education system has done a remarkable job considering some of the dire conditions from which their student population arises. Can the system be improved? Probably. But I do not know the solution. Many experiments were attempted. I believe this however. It will not be improved without the cooperation of the teachers. My Union used to work with Administration to implement new programs and improve old ones for the students.

Parents and people with political agenda issued the same damning complaints about teachers when I was working. There was no satisfying them then and there is no satisfying them now. The public seems to be unable to accept the fact that education and hard study have a value. If teachers have that attitude it trickles down from the general society. High School education is poorly valued today as it was yesterday (except for the brief "sputnik" spurt) and as it will be tomorrow.

That is why I believe teacher salaries and working conditions will be threatened without the Unions. America is not willing to pay up for good high school education and/or may not be able to as people are squeezed with rising commodity prices, higher taxes and stagnant wages. Hell, we cannot even repair bridges. The infrastructure is falling. Public education is part of that falling infrastructure.

Teachers as well as other workers today have seen the buying power of their 1980 dollar fall to $0.38 so i can understand the squeeze the public feels. Yes, if each single teacher has to face the Administration by himself you can very well wager their salaries will be cut. A Walmart Super School will be built across the street and the individual teacher will be reassigned or invited to take a hike. Working people know the truth of the inequality between management and the individual worker. You betcha!

< Message edited by vincentML -- 1/16/2010 6:24:58 PM >

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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Post #: 34

RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters - 1/16/2010 6:19:38 PM

vincentML

Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

While you are at it why not just set up a Plantation system and reinstate good old slavery? The slaves were mandatory draftees as well. Whatever happened to the cause of individual liberty? Bleh!

LOL. A period of mandatory national service is hardly slavery, Vince. Plantations? Are you trying to throw the race card and failing miserably?

And Rich, what would become of the people displaced from their jobs by the teen slaves? Would they then be turned out into the street and lose their health insurance and no longer manage to pay their mortgage? Or would you get them the jobs at Burger King that were made available after you concripted the teen slaves?

Sheesh, Rich, even Military service is voluntary and now you wish to conscript kids to National Service? Oh, they will be motivated to do a right good job!

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 35

RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters - 1/16/2010 6:28:15 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

We remove the lifers from the public tit, Vince. I'd say we phase it in based on mandated annual reductions when the unemployment rate is below a certain set point, but based on your insistence of sticking to your bullshit troll about slavery, I don't think you are interested in a serious discussion.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 36

RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters - 1/16/2010 6:38:08 PM

LafayetteLady

Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

quote:

I see what the teachers in his school do and don't do. And what they don't do is a whole lot of work at home.

So you've been to all your kid's teachers' homes? You know for a fact that they do no work at home? I'd like to see your proof that they do no course prep work, no exam writing, no exam correcting. I suspect the reality is very different from what you claim.

I said "not a whole lot," not that they didn't do any. There are variants based on the grade level, but making it appear as though teachers get out of school at 2 or 3 and then go home and do another 4-5 hours worth of work every night is just not believable.

And when you add to that the number of high school students who graduate without even basic skills, do you really believe that the teachers have spent all that much time grading their tests? I've tutored college students in basic skills english, a class they had to take because they didn't learn the basics in high school. Who failed there? The students? The parents?

Again, there are careers where a person knows what they are getting into when they start. A policeman complaining that his job was too dangerous would be laughed at. A nurse or a doctor complaining they don't like the sight of blood. Teachers complaining about having to prepare for class and correct tests and create lesson plans. It's part of the job, and it is a bit ludicrous to expect everyone to bow down and thank you for doing your job, especially when so many are doing the bare minimum. Even less once they have tenure, which should be gotten rid of completely.

(in reply to zephyroftheNorth)

Post #: 37

RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters - 1/16/2010 6:40:05 PM

thornhappy

Posts: 8596
Joined: 12/16/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
And those pukes make $80k a year for doing secretarial work, for sitting in a/c offices writing things on papers and they get to go home every night!

Are you talking about secretaries? They top out at GS-6. That isn't 80k a year.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 38

RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters - 1/16/2010 6:40:08 PM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

making it appear as though teachers get out of school at 2 or 3 and then go home and do another 4-5 hours worth of work every night is just not believable.

It is if you grew up as the son of a teacher and watched it night after night.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

Post #: 39

RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters - 1/16/2010 6:42:05 PM

thornhappy

Posts: 8596
Joined: 12/16/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack
Pushing things back out - either to the states or to local government or the private sector, will get you better results than trying to outright ban government unions in the hopes that it will somehow reverse the ongoing trend.

One reason these functions are run from the federal government is that states couldn't handle the load.

(in reply to InvisibleBlack)

Post #: 40

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