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RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters - 1/17/2010 3:07:12 PM   
Musicmystery


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But popeye....isn't that a government run plan, and thus an absolute guarantee they'll screw it up?



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RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters - 1/17/2010 4:21:28 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

But popeye....isn't that a government run plan, and thus an absolute guarantee they'll screw it up?





Music, could be but one thing I learned being in the military for so many years the less you do the more you make.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters - 1/17/2010 7:39:18 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

But popeye....isn't that a government run plan, and thus an absolute guarantee they'll screw it up?





Hmmm. That is a danger. Maybe the whole project should be outsourced to a consulting firm in India.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters - 1/17/2010 10:09:00 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I give what I get, Lafay.  I am not a Christian, but I am a sadist.  If people don't want me to stick needles in their tits, they shouldn't lead with a nipple .  There are any number of posters here who I disagree with on a regular basis, yet can have a perfectly civil discussion with.  I am who I am.

If you had bothered to read the article in the first post, you would be aware of the disgusting inequities in pay and benefits that have grown between we the people, and those who are in our employ.  Ask the guy who drives a water truck for a private construction firm how he feels about the guy who does it for a municipal gov't earning twice what he does, with a pension he can only dream of.  When did we come to a place of simply accepting that gov't jobs should be better than private sector ones?

Of course people are going to lose their jobs.  It happens all the time.  My favorite uncle was fired a few months ago, four months shy of having been with the company for forty years.  Why should public servants be any different?  Are they somehow more special and privileged than those who sweat to pay their salaries?  Do you believe that public sector workers are incompetent to find other work?  Then we have those who have ceased to have any conception of what they do being public service.  Did you note the contempt expressed for our youth by someone who insists he be granted credibility because he spent 30 years teaching them? 

Here is something you can try.  Go to the website, www.city-data.com and plug in your zip code.  Who is the biggest employer in your community?  The state?  The county?  City?  Federal government?   How much do they actually contribute to the economy?  Remember, no government body, at any level, can spend one nickel without first taking it from someone else.

What I'm proposing would certainly create a transitional ripple through the economy, but on the far side, the benefits and savings (both fiscal and social) are going to far outweigh the costs.


As others have said, this isn't about whether or not we agree that government workers are doing so much better than they should be. Personally, I have a huge issue with the stocking of sick days, the ridiculous number of paid days off and the ineptitude of many of the state/government employees.

The controversy here is that YOUR theoretical plan is NOT the answer to that.

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RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters - 1/17/2010 10:56:00 PM   
popeye1250


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You know, I could never understand why some people would say that without illegal aliens a head of lettuce would be eight dollars.
One thing we have no shortage of in this country is high school dropouts and unemployed college graduates.


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RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters - 1/18/2010 12:16:27 AM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

You know, I could never understand why some people would say that without illegal aliens a head of lettuce would be eight dollars.
One thing we have no shortage of in this country is high school dropouts and unemployed college graduates.



I'm not quite sure why you are directing that comment to me. Quite frankly, I think we should send them all back to where ever they came from. And I agree that it would provide employment to others. But people say that because the illegal aliens work for less than minimum wage and have 10 people living in a one bedroom apartment.

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RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters - 1/18/2010 4:57:11 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

I have a huge issue with the stocking of sick days


Why?

"Use 'em or lose 'em" is just a guarantee people will call in sick, leaving everyone else scrambling.

On the other hand, a pile of sick days is used quite appropriately at times for long, serious illness that otherwise would have meant severe economic crisis once the illness was finally past.

How is this any different than wisely setting aside any other resource one has worked to earn?




< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/18/2010 5:04:26 AM >

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RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters - 1/18/2010 5:03:54 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

You know, I could never understand why some people would say that without illegal aliens a head of lettuce would be eight dollars.
One thing we have no shortage of in this country is high school dropouts and unemployed college graduates.


Popeye, it's clearly a long time since you've every been associated with business.

I agree that a stint picking crops would do both groups a world of good. Preaching to the choir here--I had my farm papers at 14 and was picking raspberries piecework. I hated it and earned little, so with a little negotiating with Dad, I started my own lawn-mowing and house painting business. Took some leg work and hustling up customers, and I hated painting too, but I made a lot more money, and learning a lot more than I would have hanging around the mall.

But you can't hire what isn't there, unless you pay more to attract the labor.

People are always bitching about the impact of minimum wage. It's bullshit--no one (around here, anyway) pays minimum wage, not even Burger King, because they just can't get good help.

Whether that should be is another matter. But it is what is.

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RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters - 1/18/2010 6:54:41 AM   
thornhappy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

You know, I could never understand why some people would say that without illegal aliens a head of lettuce would be eight dollars.
One thing we have no shortage of in this country is high school dropouts and unemployed college graduates.



I'm not quite sure why you are directing that comment to me. Quite frankly, I think we should send them all back to where ever they came from. And I agree that it would provide employment to others. But people say that because the illegal aliens work for less than minimum wage and have 10 people living in a one bedroom apartment.

Along with using toxic chemicals with little or no protection, and having heat stroke because the contractor wasn't providing water to the workers.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
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RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters - 1/18/2010 7:39:30 AM   
vincentML


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A read of a little history sometimes provides perspective. This source is obviously favorable to the "illegals" so you may wish to look elsewhere as well.


The Bracero Program


The Mexican migrant worker has been the foundation for the development of the rich American agricultural industry, and the El Paso-Ciudad Juárez border region has played a key role in this historic movement. One of the most significant contributions to the growth of the agricultural economy was the creation of theBracero Program in which more than 4 million Mexican farm laborers came to work the fields of this nation. The braceros converted the agricultural fields of America into the most productive in the planet.

Mexican peasants were hard-working, highly skilled agricultural laborers. Yet, despite the fact that two million peasants lost their lives in the Mexican Revolution of 1910, the government failed to provide them the resources needed to improve their lives. By the late thirties, when the crop fields began yielding insufficient harvest and employment became scarce, the peasant was forced to look for other means of survival.

The occurrence of this grave situation coincided with the emergence of a demand in manual labor in the U.S. brought about by World War II. On August 4, 1942, the U.S. and the Mexican government instituted the Bracero program. Thousands of impoverished Mexicans abandoned their rural communities and headed north to work as braceros.

The majority of the braceros were experienced farm laborers who came from places such as "la Comarca Lagunera," Coahuila, and other important agricultural regions of México. They stopped working their land and growing food for their families with the illusion that they would be able to earn a vast amount of money on the other side of the border.

<snip>


By the 60's, an excess of "illegal" agricultural workers along with the introduction of the mechanical cotton harvester, destroyed the practicality and attractiveness of the bracero program. The program under which more than three million Mexicans entered the U.S. to labor in the agricultural fields ended in 1964. The U.S. Department of Labor officer in charge of the program, Lee G. Williams, had described it as a system of "legalized slavery."

Complete article here.


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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: How Public Servants Became our Masters - 1/18/2010 12:54:05 PM   
TheHeretic


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The promised reply to AnimusRex:

Yes.  We are going to need highly competent, highly skilled people in a lot of positions across all levels of government.  There are positions where a young person meeting their national service obligation just isn't going to be a viable option.  Your example of engineering inspectors is an excellent one.  We all drive across those bridges, any of us could be in the store or restaraunt, or nightclub when a fire breaks out.  Personally, I would prefer the bridge not collapse and that the sprinklers work if needed.  Should this be a lifetime career though?  Couldn't we achieve the same result by hiring our inspectors on, say, a 4 year contract and perhaps paying them a bit more, but without the long term obligations?  Wouldn't the same work for our accountants and attorneys?  Why does this need to be a lifetime career? 

We also run into the issue of people who forget, after a decade or so, just who they work for, and why.  They get sedate, and lazy, and resistant to any notion of change.  Consider the example, so generously offered in this thread, of the public servant who believes they have it all figured out, and that it is hopeless anyway, so why bother to do anything but become useless, clockpunching deadwood, their ass macramed into the chair, lashing out blindly at anyone who threatens their comfortable status quo of institutionalized mediocrity.  Surely, Rex, you have sent plans in, and said "fuck" when you heard which inspector would be reviewing them? 

Sticking with your example of the department of building and safety, why exactly does the person who stamps the plans "received" at the counter need to be a highly skilled career employee?  Or the one who takes the concrete core sample out of the slab and over to the lab?  Or the clerk who calculates how much the permits are going to cost?  Wouldn't the national service employee be able to do this just as well?

Now there are public sector jobs where we do want a lifetime of experience, and those jobs should offer the kind of pay and benefits that are going to attract and retain quality people.  Police detectives, mid and upper level firefighters are the sorts of things that spring to mind, but I'm sure there are many more.


So.  How do we make this mandatory service thing work?  It's a helluva lot bigger than just filling full-time government jobs.

First off, we are talking about a lot of young people.  The number I came up with for 18-23 year olds in the US for 2010 was 26 million (ish.  This is an outline, not a research paper).  Let's make it easy and say we are talking about half of those serving at any given time, and we wind up with roughly 13 million young people.  Where do we even put all of them?  The answer is, everywhere.  Service is going to be mandatory, but the form of that service is going have many options.

During the Bush II years, it was quite a popular talking point that our military was stretched too thin, and that repeated deployments were creating all sorts of problems for our National Guard forces.  Let's seriously increase our numbers of available full-time and weekend military personnel.  This actually costs us money, but I don't see peace breaking out all over.

I'd also suggest we create something like the Guard, but without the military component.  Call it a "community response force" that can be called out for everything from crowd control at a Michael Jackson funeral to crews of strong young backs to fill and lay sandbags when the river starts rising.  They train and drill, but then they go home to their lives.  They don't even have to get a particular haircut.  Right now, we have some of the best trained and equipped warriors on the planet, the Marines and 82nd Airborne, handing out water and MRE's in Haiti.  Is that an effective use of manpower?  Except for a per diem sort of rate when in training, these folks aren't on the payroll (just to state what should be obvious, we'll equip them and cover them if they get hurt, of course).

Given the vast pool of candidates for these programs, we can set the qualifications bar pretty high.

We'll accept service done through non-governmental organizations as well, and that won't cost us squat except some recordkeeping.  There are lots of possibilities there.

Then we'll have the full-time options.  A much expanded and modified Job Corps is going to be one of those. This is where we get our new force of low-level public servants.  We'll tier the program, according to education.  I'm inclined to set the lowest tier of this as pretty much the only option for our high-school dropouts.  They'll at least enter adult society with some clue about what it is to put in a day's work.  They can mow lawns in our parks, patch potholes, and yes, clean those nasty litterboxes at the animal shelter.  We are going to have some clean motherfucking freeways!  They'll also be offered educational opportunities, now that they have had a taste of the job market open to them.  Above that level, we'll get clerical workers, delivery drivers for people and goods (I haven't had any postal workers come at me yet, gotta piss them off too ), jail and prison guards, all the way up to college graduates who used deferrments, now using their education to do some public good.  I'm not a fan of centralized control, so a lot of this is going to be administered on a more state/regional level, and once they have completed the training, the agency they wind up assigned to is going to be picking up the whole tab.

It's neither a perfect, nor complete plan, but that should give you a much clearer idea of what I'm thinking would work.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to AnimusRex)
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