RE: BDSM a subset of D/s or vice versa?

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[Poll]

BDSM a subset of D/s or vice versa?

BDSM is a subset of D/s

23% (5)

D/s is a subset of BDSM

76% (16)

Total Votes : 21

(last vote on : 2/13/2010 11:14:27 AM)
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RE: BDSM a subset of D/s or vice versa? - 2/9/2010 4:47:54 PM

juliaoceania

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quote:

A "Top" is in a position of dominance. A "bottom" is in a position of submission.

This is wrong...

One can Top from the Bottom

A submissive can be ordered by dom to top another bottom

A top can switch mid scene with a bottom...

None of these activities have anything to do with Ds

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Post #: 21

RE: BDSM a subset of D/s or vice versa? - 2/9/2010 4:49:44 PM

LadyPact

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TopChuck

A "Top" is in a position of dominance. A "bottom" is in a position of submission.

Incorrect. A Top is the giver of sensations. A bottom is the receiver of those sensations. This does not necessarily have anything to do with authority.

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RE: BDSM a subset of D/s or vice versa? - 2/9/2010 4:50:30 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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I don't know when the acronym "BDSM" was first coined, but the first use of it that I'm aware of was when it became widely used on the Usenet newsgroups in the mid-90s - I'm thinking about 96, 97. And at that time, the commonly accepted definition of the term was that it was meant to include B&D, D/S, and S&M under the same umbrella. That was the reason the acronym was arranged the way that it is. So given that broad, common definition, which I believe to be the original definition, yes - D/S is a subset of BDSM. If anyone is aware of any earlier use of the term that did not include that meaning, I'm open to being corrected.

And, as you've already seen in this thread, you'll never get widespread agreement on this, because people make up their own definitions for the terms they use and defend them like wolves defending their cubs. In the end, you'll just have to do the same - pick a definition that you feel comfortable with, and make it your own.

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RE: BDSM a subset of D/s or vice versa? - 2/9/2010 4:54:17 PM

bloodlineS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

This, innit.

As far as I'm concerned this demonstrates not knowing what the 'acronym' BDSM stands for.

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Post #: 24

RE: BDSM a subset of D/s or vice versa? - 2/9/2010 4:56:53 PM

Fitznicely

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bloodlineS

As far as I'm concerned this demonstrates not knowing what the 'acronym' BDSM stands for.

Oh crap, were we supposed to take it seriously? I laughed when I saw it.

< Message edited by Fitznicely -- 2/9/2010 5:37:11 PM >

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RE: BDSM a subset of D/s or vice versa? - 2/9/2010 4:59:22 PM

Domin8tingUrDrmz

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I don't have any links to post for reference. However, the first time I heard BDSM as an acronym was probably before the mid 90s. When I first saw it spelled out, it only included Bondage Discipline SadoMasochism. Later, in the mid 90s I saw quite a few add in the Ds element since those letters were already in the acronym. Since my memory doesn't go back much further than late 80s with regard to the acronym, I can not say for certain one way or another what the original acronym represented.

However, I do agree with you that everyone will have their own definition. I typically do not cram my definition down others throats. This is usually reserved only for making a point when someone tries to cram their definition down my throat.

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Post #: 26

RE: BDSM a subset of D/s or vice versa? - 2/9/2010 5:00:25 PM

juliaoceania

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I thought I saw it in the 80s in a Penthouse forum... but it might have been just S&M

Yes, I was kinky even in the 80s

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Post #: 27

RE: BDSM a subset of D/s or vice versa? - 2/9/2010 5:00:44 PM

bloodlineS

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Funny how you make some sarcy comment about needing a "don't care" option yet this is your 2nd post on the thread. You're adding neither value or humour so just can it.

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Post #: 28

RE: BDSM a subset of D/s or vice versa? - 2/9/2010 5:02:39 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Domin8tingUrDrmz

I don't have any links to post for reference. However, the first time I heard BDSM as an acronym was probably before the mid 90s. When I first saw it spelled out, it only included Bondage Discipline SadoMasochism. Later, in the mid 90s I saw quite a few add in the Ds element since those letters were already in the acronym. Since my memory doesn't go back much further than late 80s with regard to the acronym, I can not say for certain one way or another what the original acronym represented.

You don't need any links as far as I'm concerned. If your memory is better than mine, that's good enough for me!

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Post #: 29

RE: BDSM a subset of D/s or vice versa? - 2/9/2010 5:05:08 PM

Fitznicely

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bloodlineS

Funny how you make some sarcy comment about needing a "don't care" option yet this is your 2nd post on the thread. You're adding neither value or humour so just can it.

Thanks, but I'll let the mods decide who posts what. The point of having a "don't care" option was to hilight the futility of labels and factions, and I honestly did think the Venn diagram was supposed to be a joke. You don't like what I post? I say "meh"

< Message edited by Fitznicely -- 2/9/2010 5:07:29 PM >

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Post #: 30

RE: BDSM a subset of D/s or vice versa? - 2/9/2010 5:08:13 PM

bloodlineS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

You don't need any links as far as I'm concerned. If your memory is better than mine, that's good enough for me!

You could check wikipedia, but that's as good as the last person who edited it obviously. I'm getting the definition from when I first explored this stuff online which would be mid 90s (when I got online).

Edit: screwed up quote positions

< Message edited by bloodlineS -- 2/9/2010 5:11:32 PM >

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Post #: 31

RE: BDSM a subset of D/s or vice versa? - 2/9/2010 6:03:36 PM

LinnaeaBorealis

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I'm in the who cares group.

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RE: BDSM a subset of D/s or vice versa? - 2/9/2010 6:18:35 PM

dcnovice

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I'm gonna admit my ignorance--I'm a novice, after all--and ask what's so bad about the Venn diagram. I read it as saying that some folks get into Ds, some into BDSM, and some into both. Is that not the case?

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Post #: 33

RE: BDSM a subset of D/s or vice versa? - 2/9/2010 6:28:29 PM

Wolf2Bear

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How I see it, the "D" in BDSM is for Discipline so to me that is a component to any D/s dynamic. Whether it's Master/slave, Dominant/sub, Daddy/girl. Daddy/son, etc.
Dominance usually implies discipline is part of the factor and it's good enough for this person.

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RE: BDSM a subset of D/s or vice versa? - 2/9/2010 7:09:56 PM

Domin8tingUrDrmz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolf2Bear

How I see it, the "D" in BDSM is for Discipline so to me that is a component to any D/s dynamic. Whether it's Master/slave, Dominant/sub, Daddy/girl. Daddy/son, etc.
Dominance usually implies discipline is part of the factor and it's good enough for this person.

Discipline is a key aspect in BDSM. However, I do not view the dominant party being the sole provider of discipline, okay, let me explain...lol. Self-discipline on the part of the bottom is also a key factor. That has nothing to do with submission to a dominant. I has everything to do with focusing on the sensation at hand and not doing something that could jeopardize one's position. For instance, a top says "stay still", they say this knowing that if the bottom moves at that moment they could be injured. The bottom is not being submissive by following that order, they are being self-disciplined by actually performing that order to prevent any injury to themself. Now, if the bottom went on and moved to prove they were not being submissive - well the fault is their own when they get injured and do not practice self-discipline.

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RE: BDSM a subset of D/s or vice versa? - 2/9/2010 8:45:55 PM

dreamerdreaming

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I agree with whoever said B=bondage, D= discipline AND dominance, S= Submission AND sadism, and M=Masochism. My understanding of it is (as has been said on this thread and elsewhere on the boards) that this is designed to be a catchall acronym for the various aspects of WIITWD, so that's why the D and S each stand for two things. Obviously as a catchall term its a failure, since we've had to employ other acronyms (WIITWD, for example). If we look at it purely from the standpoint of how the acronym is designed, with the D and S squarely in the middle, we might say that D/s is a subset of BDSM. But that's clearly not the case. It was a nice idea though, and you could still argue the case that {DS} is a subset of the set of letters {BDSM}. Of course it is, but that's not the point.

Still, the acronym BDSM is much better than the old term I came of age with: S&M. At the time, I was heavy into S&M so that fit me then, but now that I'm on the D side of the slash I consider myself and my boy to be majority Owner/slave, with little to no S&M going on between us. Unless, as some people do I think, you count the S to mean three things: submission, sadist AND slave, and the M to cover both masochist AND Master. Even then, the whole "dominance" thing just doesn't work for me personally. My orientation is more about control, and ownership. In my happy little world, to describe my dynamic with my slaveboy: the S would signify slavery, submission, self-actualization/ self-realization and surrender. A good acronym for what I like would be something like CRODSH. Where O= ownership and objectification, opening and obedience, C= control and compliance and H= humiliation, D would stand for devotion and duty, R is for restraint and release, and then I'd throw in Love/Adoration in there somewhere. So lets see... hmmm... CHORDALS... Something like that. But that's just for us.

I like WIITWD, because its so inclusive.

What was the question?

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RE: BDSM a subset of D/s or vice versa? - 2/9/2010 8:55:12 PM

Andalusite

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TopChuck
There are no activities in BDSM that don't involve someone in a position of dominance and/or someone in a position of submission.

There are many people in D/s relationships that aren't involved in BDSM, at all.

All BDSM involves D/s. Not all D/s involves BDSM.

I've had LTRs with other switches, and casually played with them, without any D/s dynamic whatsoever. Sometimes we even switched right in the middle of a scene - I'd thwack them for a while, then they'd thwack me for a while.

Only 3 of my relationships have involved an overt D/s dynamic - one for 5 years as a Domme, one for 3 years as a submissive, and I currently have a Master.

(in reply to TopChuck)

Post #: 37

RE: BDSM a subset of D/s or vice versa? - 2/9/2010 8:58:44 PM

Andalusite

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Domin8tingUrDrmz
For instance, a top says "stay still", they say this knowing that if the bottom moves at that moment they could be injured. The bottom is not being submissive by following that order, they are being self-disciplined by actually performing that order to prevent any injury to themself. Now, if the bottom went on and moved to prove they were not being submissive - well the fault is their own when they get injured and do not practice self-discipline.

I wouldn't deliberately move in order to show that I wasn't submissive. When I get tickled, I tend to thrash around uncontrollably. On rare occasions, I've hurt myself or others in minor ways. If I engage in knife play as a bottom (with a sharp knife involved) I need to be completely immobilised. I generally have good self-control when it comes to pain, but blaming my reaction to tickling on a lack of self-discipline strikes me as a bit odd. Perhaps I should work on controlling my reactions more effectively but it's rarely an issue, and most of the people I've dated *liked* that it made me lose control.

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 2/9/2010 8:59:48 PM >

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RE: BDSM a subset of D/s or vice versa? - 2/9/2010 9:03:33 PM

Andalusite

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fitznicely
Nope, as i understand it, a Top acts as dom for a scene directed by the Bottom. My understanding is that the Bottom is in ultimate control of the scene and therfore very much NOT in a position of submission.

Never topped, to be honest, and don't have any desire to. If I've got some part of the definition wrong, apologies.

I've never heard of that definition of topping. Generally, I've seen it used as the person on the giving end of tying somebody up and/or hurting them, without a D/s dynamic in place. It's about sensation, rather than control.

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RE: BDSM a subset of D/s or vice versa? - 2/9/2010 10:53:20 PM

dragonseeker

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I found the diagram to be very descriptive. Separate yet overlapping, and it makes total sense to me. This post reminds me of that ageless question... "who came first, the chicken or the egg?" Perhaps add a "Neither" option to your poll....

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