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RE: Talking Women - 2/14/2010 4:42:05 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

A conversation as recently as last night with my boss leads me to think that women can often be unreliable. We had some bad weather here the past two days. All the men fought through it and showed up for work. Nearly all the women stayed home.


Loki...for every man that shows up, generally there is a wife at home who cannot leave because the schools/daycares are closed. So...hubby gets the glory while the little woman gets driven to the brink of insanity by the hyperactive kids with a rocking case of cabin fever.

< Message edited by sirsholly -- 2/14/2010 4:49:20 AM >

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RE: Talking Women - 2/14/2010 5:19:21 AM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly
Loki...for every man that shows up, generally there is a wife at home who cannot leave because the schools/daycares are closed. So...hubby gets the glory while the little woman gets driven to the brink of insanity by the hyperactive kids with a rocking case of cabin fever.


And for those who are single or who do not have kids to be stuck with? What's their excuse?


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RE: Talking Women - 2/14/2010 5:25:41 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly
Loki...for every man that shows up, generally there is a wife at home who cannot leave because the schools/daycares are closed. So...hubby gets the glory while the little woman gets driven to the brink of insanity by the hyperactive kids with a rocking case of cabin fever.


And for those who are single or who do not have kids to be stuck with? What's their excuse?

How would i know? Everyone has circumstances that are different. Tell ya what...the next time it occurs, why don't you go to all the females and say something like "I made it in here...why didn't you?"

And do post your answer...i will do my best to read "soprano"


< Message edited by sirsholly -- 2/14/2010 5:28:26 AM >

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RE: Talking Women - 2/14/2010 5:58:58 AM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly
How would i know? Everyone has circumstances that are different. Tell ya what...the next time it occurs, why don't you go to all the females and say something like "I made it in here...why didn't you?"

And do post your answer...i will do my best to read "soprano"


Are you insinuating....indeed confirming that women can't be asked a question without resorting to violence? Thanks. I have been waiting for someone to confirm that for me. Funny, a man does that and he's an abuser. A woman does it and it's "ok."

I say again -- "equality my ass."


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RE: Talking Women - 2/14/2010 6:21:53 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly
How would i know? Everyone has circumstances that are different. Tell ya what...the next time it occurs, why don't you go to all the females and say something like "I made it in here...why didn't you?"

And do post your answer...i will do my best to read "soprano"


Are you insinuating....indeed confirming that women can't be asked a question without resorting to violence? Thanks. I have been waiting for someone to confirm that for me. Funny, a man does that and he's an abuser. A woman does it and it's "ok."

I say again -- "equality my ass."

pull your sexist head out of your ass. it was a joke.

I will tell you that i would verbally rip you a new poop shoot if you, as a co-worker, had the balls to question why i was not there. That info is between myself and my employer and does not concern you in the least.


< Message edited by sirsholly -- 2/14/2010 6:22:52 AM >

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RE: Talking Women - 2/14/2010 9:53:02 AM   
LaTigresse


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Status: offline 		I was thinking about the latest crazy rant of our resident woman hater.

At age 47, I've been working in some capacity or other, for 35 years. To be honest, I've seen the type of female behaviour he describes. I have also seen an equal amount of lazy, excuse book ridden, male workers. I've been put in charge of both, fired both, been forced to squeeze work out of both.

The only point I am going to make is that, as with anything, I think you are simply going to see most what you focus on. If you focus on reasons to dislike, demean, and de-value women, you will find them. Pure and simple. If you focus on reasons to dislike, demean, and de-value men, you will find them. The poster in question is a perfect example for many. Yet, the intelligent and open minded among us will recognise that the examples are not the bulk. They are not an acceptable reason to create blanket statements or rules.

That being said, many of us have made blanket statements. I know I have. However, I know that for myself, whatever I say/type of that nature, is definitely in jest. There are MANY men I admire and a few I respect. I do not judge all men by a few bad examples. I believe that the bulk of my communication reflects that. However, if a person has not heard/seen, the bulk of my communication, they might get a very different idea of my feelings based upon a few comments made in jest. Hell, I remember being accused of hating women (by a particularly vitriolic feminine poster that has been delightfully absent of late). She was delighting in taking a few words and creating a blanket statement about my character that was certainly not an honest portrayal. Given my feelings about that person, I didn't really care, but it is a good example.

I think most people can and will, base their perception of a person's intent, somewhat more accurately. I think most people can garner a certain tone from a person's words, whether written or spoke. Even though with some people both the determining and the expression is certainly easier than others.

Perhaps with the poster in question, his method of writing is not an accurate determination of his intent, of how most of us perceive it. Perhaps his perception of other's statements, made moreso in jest rather than literal blanket statements is flawed. There is no way for any of us to know, perhaps not even him. I do know that his example, while quite a negative example, will not cause me, and doubtful anyone else here, to consider all men to be as unlikable and flawed as he shows himself to be.

In truth I pity anyone that conveys such a negativity, such negative energy. Anyone that sees such negativity as this person seems to.

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RE: Talking Women - 2/14/2010 10:02:05 AM   
thornhappy


Posts: 8596
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Status: offline 		You've only been in the workforce since the '90s?  That's gonna make a big difference in experiences, Loki.  One of the times I'm talking about was in '77 (summer work, all of us hired within a month of each other).  A few more instances in the late '80s, one instance in '93 that was egregious (when I interviewed at the next company, they said "Are you serious?")  I've always worked in predominantly male industries, that's probably where you'll find the pay differentials.

As for unreliability, I've never needed maternity leave, don't have kids, I travel as much as the guys (once I even went with a freshly broken finger and arm), and the only trip I had to cancel was due to a doc telling me it wasn't safe to fly (ear & sinus infection).

I see a lot of women, and some men, miss days with bad weather because the schools shut down and they were the ones staying home with the kids.  If you don't think women should have it all, start telling the guys to take up the slack with the kids.  That should even things out pretty quick. ;)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45 As I've said, since I joined the work force in the mid-90's, I've held *no* job where I was paid more than women or vice versa. Every position I've held from grocery clerk, to the military, to various temp jobs has paid the same amount no matter what was between my legs.

I can't even imagine what field it would be that pays the woman less. Though, in my honest opinion, if there were such a field, I could certainly understand it. A conversation as recently as last night with my boss leads me to think that women can often be unreliable. We had some bad weather here the past two days. All the men fought through it and showed up for work. Nearly all the women stayed home. Couple that with things like maternity leave where the rest of the office will inevitably have to pick up slack for someone who wants their career and their family too and if those people are making the same amount, you do a disservice to the ones left holding the bag in the office. Why should they make the same amount while doing double the work when their coworker is absent? But that's another debate entirely.


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RE: Talking Women - 2/14/2010 10:06:31 AM   
Jeffff


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RE: Talking Women - 2/14/2010 10:23:40 AM   
lusciouslips19


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

I adore you.


Jeff


I second that! Smooches for LaT!!!

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RE: Talking Women - 2/14/2010 5:02:01 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly
pull your sexist head out of your ass. it was a joke.


A joke that gets made so much, it's become far too common, even on TV. Actresses in many shows slap or hit their male counterparts and it's "funny." Now if the male counterpart did it, there would be calls to boycott the show.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly
I will tell you that i would verbally rip you a new poop shoot if you, as a co-worker, had the balls to question why i was not there. That info is between myself and my employer and does not concern you in the least.


Wrong. If I get called in or have to work longer hours because *you* dropped the ball, it damned well does concern me. And I will voice my displeasure as well. You can bet on that. Why is it the men could brave the icy roads and the blizzard-like conditions and the women get a free pass....and then have the audacity to whine about 'equal pay?'


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RE: Talking Women - 2/14/2010 6:07:21 PM   
sexyred1


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Status: offline 		You really should read LaT's post; it really does make all the sense in the world.


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RE: Talking Women - 2/14/2010 6:21:05 PM   
thornhappy


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Status: offline 		She's got a way of summing stuff up nicely.

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RE: Talking Women - 2/14/2010 6:26:19 PM   
lusciouslips19


Posts: 9792
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Status: offline 		MR. negative does illastrate for the woman that the more things change, the more things stay the same. Cause lets face it, in a race between sexism and racism, the USA overcame their racism before overcoming their sexism. They would rather vote in a black man than a woman of any color.

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RE: Talking Women - 2/14/2010 6:34:15 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
I was thinking about the latest crazy rant of our resident woman hater.


I'll overlook this repeated (ad nauseum) shot to get to the meat of your post.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
That being said, many of us have made blanket statements.


Indeed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
I know I have. However, I know that for myself, whatever I say/type of that nature, is definitely in jest.


As are many of mine. But as I often say, there is never any 'tone' to be heard in text-based communications.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
Perhaps with the poster in question, his method of writing is not an accurate determination of his intent, of how most of us perceive it. Perhaps his perception of other's statements, made moreso in jest rather than literal blanket statements is flawed. There is no way for any of us to know, perhaps not even him. I do know that his example, while quite a negative example, will not cause me, and doubtful anyone else here, to consider all men to be as unlikable and flawed as he shows himself to be.


I've often made my intent perfectly clear -- by stating it in no uncertain terms. I hear *all* the time complaints from women about things that, when reversed, are suddenly 'ok' to joke about -- domestic violence, stereotyping, etc. I hear and see all these complaints, and then I see the jokes that follow. I call as an example, the thread about the three women who handcuffed the man to his bed and glued his dick to him. That's assault no matter how you slice it. And there was woman after woman cheering here for those who did it with no pause given to how they'd feel if the victim was female. And when I pointed that out, I was met with comments about how women are assaulted all over the world, as though that somehow made it ok not only for the women in that story to do what they did, but also made it 'ok' for the women in that thread to cheer for their antics.

Look at some of the 'jesting' posts made toward me in this very thread just recently, such as holly's assertion that I would be talking in soprano if I asked a female coworker why she couldn't be bothered to come in to work and do her job.

Again I ask, if it's such a horrible thing to joke about things like assault and domestic violence when women are the victims, why is it not EQUALLY horrendous to do so when the victim is a male? If stereotyping is such a horrendous thing to do when we're stereotyping about women, why is it perfectly ok to do when we're talking about men?

That is why I do what I do here (well, when I'm not legitimately commenting on another subject or making the smiley in pa's wildly outlandish threads that is).

The trouble is, I have unpopular views on male-female relationships. LONG ago, because of those views, I was called sexist, chauvanist, mysogynist, etc. Yes, I freely admit there are a few types of women I have, do and will always hate. But it's not all of them. As I have said before, everyone who throws around those words in my general direction would be shocked to learn that I have always had more female friends than male ones. I have *one* BEST friend who is male. I have another BEST friend who's female (the term "best" used because they are each close enough to be called my brother/sister from another mother). Then the majority of my other 'good friends' have usually been female.

And every one of my friends knows my views on relationships. Yet when I express my views here, I'm a sexist, a chauvanist, etc. It's funnny to me that others who seem to express the opposite of my views are not mocked for theirs.

So, since I'm called sexist, chauvanist, mysogynist all the time, I just figured I'd own all of them. Why give more power to the ones with whom I argue. Call me an asshole, I'll just say "thanks." I certainly won't get all bent out of shape like some women do when they are called things like a stark-raving cunt. Because to me it doesn't matter what a random internet person thinks of me. I simply don't care. I have unpopular views and I know it. I know some do share my views but many more want to label me because of them. Label away....makes no difference to me.


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RE: Talking Women - 2/14/2010 6:37:29 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy
You've only been in the workforce since the '90s?  That's gonna make a big difference in experiences, Loki.  One of the times I'm talking about was in '77 (summer work, all of us hired within a month of each other).  A few more instances in the late '80s, one instance in '93 that was egregious (when I interviewed at the next company, they said "Are you serious?")  I've always worked in predominantly male industries, that's probably where you'll find the pay differentials.


The difference is, you're speaking about the past. That's the problem with a lot of the "women make less than men" argument. I work in the here and now. And as I said, I've held no job where I made more than a woman. Did it happen a lot when women were first entering the workforce? Absolutely. But it's kinda like racism. There was rampant, blatant and overt racism decades ago. Is there still racism? Yes, but nowhere nearly as bad as there once was. Is there a field or two where there might be a pay gap still? I'm sure there may be, but the majority of fields pay the same. But if you listen to the media, it's still 1950 with stenopools and all the secretaries are women. This is 2010. I think it's time to accept and admit that some things *have* changed.


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RE: Talking Women - 2/14/2010 6:40:54 PM   
Loki45


Posts: 2100
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19

MR. negative does illastrate for the woman that the more things change, the more things stay the same. Cause lets face it, in a race between sexism and racism, the USA overcame their racism before overcoming their sexism. They would rather vote in a black man than a woman of any color.


It's funny that I see this post after the longer reply I just made. You make a STUNNING example of what I am talking about.

Overcome racism but not sexism? Please. Ask a black man that. Ever heard the lame 'racial' joke about Micheal Jackson? How he "achieved the American dream -- growing up a poor black boy to become a rich white woman?"

Yeah, that's the problem with those who throw around the victim card. You always see someone else who you think has it better than you. Racism still exists in this world, very much so. Does sexism? Sure in some places. But neither is as widespread as they once were. Hell, either 'ism' will get you fired from a job if HR catches wind over it.


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RE: Talking Women - 2/14/2010 6:41:54 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
You really should read LaT's post; it really does make all the sense in the world.


I did. I was replying to it when I got a phone call that lasted almost an hour.

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RE: Talking Women - 2/14/2010 6:44:29 PM   
heartcream


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From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline 		Not the past, still a problem

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RE: Talking Women - 2/14/2010 6:46:52 PM   
Aileen1968


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
You really should read LaT's post; it really does make all the sense in the world.


I did. I was replying to it when I got a phone call that lasted almost an hour.


Was it from a woman?

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RE: Talking Women - 2/14/2010 6:49:28 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heartcream
Not the past, still a problem


Doesn't appear to be a problem when I look at that link. A 'problem' is what I would call it when the whole of society still adheres to the out-dated mindset. What that link shows is that "some" companies recently got smacked down for their antics. Which means even the COURTS told them they were wrong and subsequently, they had to pay large settlements because of it. It would be a 'problem' if the court sided with the company and told the plantiffs to suck it up and deal with it.

If it were still a problem, people wouldn't be afraid to tell racist or sexist jokes in the workplace for fear of losing their jobs.

As I said, does it still exist today? Sure. But it's nowhere near as bad as it once was.


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