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Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premiere tr... - 2/24/2010 9:08:48 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Once again, Newfoundland finds itself in the headlines about healthcare. This time it is not about breast cancer testing problems in its pathology laboratories. Instead, media reports are trumpeting the disclosure that Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams had quietly left the country earlier this month to undergo major heart surgery in the United States. Danny Williams’ decision caused negative reactions among the press and commentators in the United States and Canada. After all, why would a senior elected official from Newfoundland decide to leave Canada, which has national health insurance, and seek care in the U.S., where the Congress is debating the merits of a national health insurance plan?

http://www.darkdaily.com/newfoundland-premier-danny-williams-heart-surgery-in-the-u-s-triggers-debate-on-healthcare-in-canada-224

So if the Canadian program is as good and efficinent as the pro natioanlized healthcare folks would have us believe, why is it even nessisary for such a trip to happen.

The details also seem to indicate that the operation recommended by the canadian healthcare folks was going to have to break bones to perform the operation and leave the Mr Williams with an extended recovery time. many times longer than the recover he had from the more advanced surgery offered in Miami.

I have to wonder if there are no waits for services in Canada with their system then why the need to go to Miami?

If there is no rationing going on then why the need to do the operation in Miami?

If the canadian system is better then why was the operation they proposed so much less advanced than the operation Mr Williams got in Miami?

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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 9:18:03 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Uh, read the whole fucking article Archer, and dont be outrightly dishonest and disingenous.

He is a millionaire, and if he wants to and can afford to pay for the comfort of an alternative procedure to ease his heart surgery, that does not change anything (or say anything bad) about Canadian Healthcare.

If there was a fault with the canadian system, and not a matter of recovery and comfort he would have went to Mayo.

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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 9:20:34 AM   
LaTigresse


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Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Or maybe he just wanted to lay on a warm beach to recover...

Our health system is so good that people routinely go to other countries for procedures also.


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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 9:29:15 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
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Status: offline 		Why do people persist in presenting such cases as "evidence" of anything?

Do some research. Medical tourism is in fact growing--hundreds of thousands of people, not a cherry picked case here and there.

Mexico, India, Thailand and South Africa are particularly popular for U.S. surgery patients, as the cost is a tenth of what it is here.

If you're going to explore it, then explore it, not exploit a single instance.

Here's a start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism

By the way---U.S. patients go to Canada too.


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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 9:30:25 AM   
Archer


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Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Dishonest???? (holds up a mirror to mnottertail)

I posted the article link, I didn't hide it.

My points remain unanswered
He skipped the line that was set to have him wait before getting his operation (intellectually I don't blame the man, I agree he can afford it he should use his money to get the service he can best afford) But to skip the line and not at least acknowledge that it is a failing of the Canadian System is dishonest and disengenous. on your part

Next The rationing that supposedly doesn't happen obviously is happening otherwise why the dodge about him getting his operation out of the system keeping a slot available for someone else. Again the dishonesty is on your part. failure to acknowldege that the rationing is taking place.

Finally the biggest point, the Canadian Doctors who he saw initially recommended an operation that is at least 5 or so year behind state of the art for that operation in the US. If the Canadian system is as good then why the proceedures that are way behind the times?

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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 9:31:41 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
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Status: offline 		Also--we absolutely ration health care here.

We just do it by ability to pay.

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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 9:32:07 AM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		Heya Archer,

You will also hear the argument that the procedure isn't available in his province. No worries, he isn't the first Canadian politician to come down south of the border for surgery. It is also quite obvious that Miami is much closer to his home than say Quebec, where a similar procedure is performed.

It could be he didn't want to wait the recommended amount of time for his priority group, and there is no knowing which priority group his condition was classified as. One of the spokespeople up in the Great White North, stated that "most people are treated within the recommended wait period of 26 weeks."

I did like his statement though "This was my heart, my choice and my health..." or the one that really makes me feel comfortable about going to a system like Canada's "I did not sign away my right to get the best possible health care for myself when I entered politics."

Ah good times. I wonder where the rich and able will start going for surgery if we go to the same sort of systems that they are running away from now.

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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 9:33:12 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Thadius,


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Why do people persist in presenting such cases as "evidence" of anything?

Do some research. Medical tourism is in fact growing--hundreds of thousands of people, not a cherry picked case here and there.

Mexico, India, Thailand and South Africa are particularly popular for U.S. surgery patients, as the cost is a tenth of what it is here.

If you're going to explore it, then explore it, not exploit a single instance.

Here's a start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism

By the way---U.S. patients go to Canada too.




(in reply to Thadius)
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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 9:35:05 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Why do people persist in presenting such cases as "evidence" of anything?

Do some research. Medical tourism is in fact growing--hundreds of thousands of people, not a cherry picked case here and there.

Mexico, India, Thailand and South Africa are particularly popular for U.S. surgery patients, as the cost is a tenth of what it is here.

If you're going to explore it, then explore it, not exploit a single instance.

Here's a start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism

By the way---U.S. patients go to Canada too.



Thailand's particularly good for getting your corneas lasered, I'm told.

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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 9:40:55 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		I'm not against or unaware of medical tourism.

But generally it's for cost reasons, in this case the choice was between no cost system at home where his own government touts the National Health System is so good, and traveling to a country where the medical costs are according to the pro nationalizing healthcare folks prohibitively expensive.
Tourism to pay more for the same operation??????

Must have been to avoid the waiting on line with the rest of his countrymen

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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 9:42:32 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		And because we work on ability to pay.

Got the cash, we got care.

That's our system.

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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 9:42:37 AM   
Smutmonger


Posts: 995
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline 		Try getting a sterilization in this country if you are female-and under the age of forty or so. The conservative medical community simply will not do it. I can see why people travel to other countries to have things done.

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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 9:43:45 AM   
RacerJim


Posts: 1583
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Uh, read the whole fucking article Archer, and dont be outrightly dishonest and disingenous.

He is a millionaire, and if he wants to and can afford to pay for the comfort of an alternative procedure to ease his heart surgery, that does not change anything (or say anything bad) about Canadian Healthcare.

If there was a fault with the canadian system, and not a matter of recovery and comfort he would have went to Mayo.



Ummm, read this portion of the whole article, mnottertail, and don't be so outrightly deceitful and obfuscatin.

"Critics point out that Williams’ choice to undergo his surgery in a U.S. hospital contrasts dramatically against the poor care that hundreds of breast cancer patients received in Newfoundland in earlier years. It was October 2005, when the Canadian public became aware of inaccuracies in breast cancer testing performed by the pathology laboratory that serves the provinces of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Based on an outside review of 1,013 breast cancer patients who had tested negative between May 1997 and August 2005, it was determined that, because of inaccurate pathology tests on estrogen receptors, 383 women in the retest group had not gotten appropriate treatment. Of this number, 108 patients had died by the time the pathology test review was conducted. (See The Dark Report, May 18, 2009: ER/PR Testing in Canada Continues to Make News.)"

If there was no fault with the Canadian healthcare system he wouldn't have had to take advantage of what the American healthcare system offers.

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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 9:43:47 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Thailand's particularly good for getting your corneas lasered, I'm told.


And Canada for hernia operations.

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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 9:46:16 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Music there is an old consultant's saying that I have yet to find the exception to prove the rule.

Cheap Fast Good pick 2.

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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 9:48:43 AM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Uh, read the whole fucking article Archer, and dont be outrightly dishonest and disingenous.

He is a millionaire, and if he wants to and can afford to pay for the comfort of an alternative procedure to ease his heart surgery, that does not change anything (or say anything bad) about Canadian Healthcare.

If there was a fault with the canadian system, and not a matter of recovery and comfort he would have went to Mayo.



Ummm, read this portion of the whole article, mnottertail, and don't be so outrightly deceitful and obfuscatin.

"Critics point out that Williams’ choice to undergo his surgery in a U.S. hospital contrasts dramatically against the poor care that hundreds of breast cancer patients received in Newfoundland in earlier years. It was October 2005, when the Canadian public became aware of inaccuracies in breast cancer testing performed by the pathology laboratory that serves the provinces of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Based on an outside review of 1,013 breast cancer patients who had tested negative between May 1997 and August 2005, it was determined that, because of inaccurate pathology tests on estrogen receptors, 383 women in the retest group had not gotten appropriate treatment. Of this number, 108 patients had died by the time the pathology test review was conducted. (See The Dark Report, May 18, 2009: ER/PR Testing in Canada Continues to Make News.)"

If there was no fault with the Canadian healthcare system he wouldn't have had to take advantage of what the American healthcare system offers.

Speaking of breast cancer, and not to mix apples and oranges, did you know that the survival rate in the US is 90% as opposed to 77% in European countries? Go figure, eh.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 9:52:17 AM   
gorky


Posts: 1
Joined: 8/26/2009
Status: offline 		what happens to does that dont have the cash ? throw them on the rubbish heap ?

(in reply to Thadius)
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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 9:54:54 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		He skipped the line that was set to have him wait before getting his operation (intellectually I don't blame the man, I agree he can afford it he should use his money to get the service he can best afford) But to skip the line and not at least acknowledge that it is a failing of the Canadian System is dishonest and disengenous. on your part

not a failing at all, we skip lines all the time here, and you dont point that out in kind, and by your error of omission intend to infer that is not the case. so whos intellectually dishonest?

Next The rationing that supposedly doesn't happen obviously is happening otherwise why the dodge about him getting his operation out of the system keeping a slot available for someone else. Again the dishonesty is on your part. failure to acknowldege that the rationing is taking place.

By this logic, if I cancel my dentist appointment and they put somebody else in that slot, the system is rationed. Or if you schedule surgery for such a time and place and subsequently die, so they do surgery during that time, by your very arguement it is rationing, if you decide to seek treatment elsewhere and notify the doctor and he calls mrs. muckenfutch and says hey, I have an opening, thats rationing. americans have always had rationing, nothing has or will change. so whos intellectually dishonest?

Finally the biggest point, the Canadian Doctors who he saw initially recommended an operation that is at least 5 or so year behind state of the art for that operation in the US. If the Canadian system is as good then why the proceedures that are way behind the times?


http://www.ottawacitizen.com/health/Most+heart+surgery+procedures+available+Canada/2515306/story.html


additionally, you dont go to the Lake Region Hospital in Fergus Falls if you want the current and best heartcare, you go to Mayo or to Johns Hopkins or to St. Ansgars. In the US there are a few very advanced cardiac centers, the rest of the country is mediocre hacks and butcherous chancre mechanics.

to say the procedures (encompassing the whole canadian health care system) are behind is is disingenuous, but perhaps the PM didn't know what the doctor stated in the ottawa citizen news, so I will give you a pass as misinformed.

Those are my answers, and sorry that I did not answer them the first time.

Ron

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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 9:58:00 AM   
cadenas


Posts: 517
Joined: 11/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
If the canadian system is better then why was the operation they proposed so much less advanced than the operation Mr Williams got in Miami?


There are so many rumors floating around surrounding this that it's hard to separate fact from fiction here. But another interesting aspect is that the Canadian health care system DOES provide for the exact surgery he got in surgery - because they do pay for it when it's not available in Canada.

A couple other important points:

- This was apparently an elective surgery, planned for a long time. Canadians get urgent surgery right away, without waiting for HMO approvals or the like. Elective surgery is where you have to wait.
- Canada is a very sparsely populated country. A population just a bit larger than the greater NYC area is spread out over an area larger than the USA. Even though there are some larger cities, overall it's hardly surprising that Canada may have some fewer medical options.
- US Americans also travel abroad for treatment, sometimes with the encouragement of their insurance companies.

Overall, this is very short on facts and really not evidence of anything one way or the other.


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RE: Canada's system so good that newfoundland's Premier... - 2/24/2010 10:06:03 AM   
BLoved


Posts: 642
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Status: offline 		~FR~

The end of September I had my only heart attack.

Dialed 911, told them the problem, they stayed on the phone with me till the ambulance arrived.

Was med-evaced to Toronto, had my wrist slit, dye inserted, the blockage identified, a stent inserted all on the same day.

Kept overnight for observation and released the next day.

Cost to me: 45$ for the ambulance. I'm on a fixed income and there is no way I could have covered the cost were I in America.

My meds are covered by a government plan, because I don't have insurance to cover that.

I live out in the middle of nowhere in Central Ontario.

Proud to be Canadian.

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