Afraid To Be A Slave (Full Version)

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heartfeltsub -> Afraid To Be A Slave (2/25/2010 5:18:50 PM)

In response to both the Doormat thread that NZ started and the Where does it end part 2 thread (which scared me a lot), i decided to start this thread based on comments that i made in the Doormat thread. i identify as a submissive, not as a slave. In fact, i identify as a heavily service oriented, exceedingly obedient submissive, but i make it clear if asked that i am not a slave. Part of the reason that i identify that way is that way is because of the fact that the thought of what it would mean to me to be a slave scares me immensely.

While i am not trying to make a universal definition of what it means to be a slave, i have my own definition of what it would mean to me, my own internal definition of a slave. (Please in response to this thread, please do not let this thread denigrate into a definition of a slave thread.) To me, if i were to identify as a slave, it would require of me, to change or give up control of a number of things. For one thing, for me to identify as a slave, would mean to me that i would no longer have the right to say no. For another, if i were a slave, i would not be able to retain control over things like finances, jobs, my business, that sort of thing. And if those things weren't scary enough, it would require of me a vulnerability and an openness that shakes me to my toes. Again, please understand that yes i know that that is not how all people define slavery, but that is how i identify slavery, and why i do not call myself a slave, even though i also have a desire, albeit, one that leaves me shaken, to be a slave. That desire is something i fear and usually deny. In fact, a Dominant friend of mine calls me "Cleo" (that isn't my name), because he says "Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

One of the things that i say when asked about why i am not a slave, even though others keep telling me i am a slave, is that i haven't yet found a man who i trust enough to give that level of control to. Part of why i say that has its root in my relationship with my ex-husband. Although it was not a BDSM D/s relationship, i was submissive to my husband, not only because as a Christian, i believed strongly in being a submissive wife, but also because i am naturally submissive. As i mentioned in the doormat thread, i have very strong doormattish tendencies and i fight giving in to them. i fight giving into them, because of events from my childhood (series of different types and times of abuse both physical and sexual) and because in my relationship with my ex-husband, i had finally come to the place where i needed him in my life, when he decided he now longer wanted to be in my life. That level of intimacy, that level of need, scares me, to go there again. The one time i did, when my ex-husband left, only the thought of what finding my dead body would do to my teenage daughter kept me alive. To go to that level of need for a person again is something that scares me greatly. i don't know, if i ever had to face that situation again, if i could pull myself out of it again. But that vulnerability and intimacy is part of my definition of a M/s relationship.

In the D/s relationship with my former Dominant, there were areas that He did not exert any authority. He could and did make suggestions about areas that he did not have authority, but they were not commands and i could do as i thought best. Giving up control in these areas, maybe being a relationship that requires me to give up my job or business, etc., also scares me.

If i were ever in a M/s relationship instead of a D/s relationship, i know that i would be one of those that takes on my Master's boundaries and limits, not limited his authority in my life. In a D/s relationship, albeit will limits on his range of authority, in a 4 year relationship, i never said no to a command. So to get to the point of this thread. For those who are in M/s relationships where you as the s-type have taken on your Master's limit, thereby not limiting His authority in your life, did you face such fears, if so, how did you deal with them? Or do you still have them?

Thank you in advance for your replies.

heartfelt 






lovingpet -> RE: Afraid To Be A Slave (2/25/2010 5:30:29 PM)

I understand completely.  I did the same type of thing trying to unravel why my partner just insisted on calling me a slave even though it scares me so badly.  It is different from your situation, of course, but I thought my old thread might help.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_2761000/mpage_1/tm.htm

If I have a chance to write more extensively I will, but this discussion helped me a great deal and I even go back and read it sometimes when I get a little unsettled about it again.  All my best!  This really is a journey.

lovingpet



RedMagic1 -> RE: Afraid To Be A Slave (2/25/2010 5:32:39 PM)

Hi heartfelt,

I don't have anything to contribute to your thread directly, but I wanted to say thank you.  It was just a couple days ago that I agreed with your wishing for higher quality opening posts -- and here you are, writing something that lays yourself naked and vulnerable on the open board.  It was touching to read, and I'm grateful you shared it.



Missokyst -> RE: Afraid To Be A Slave (2/25/2010 5:42:48 PM)

I can relate. I am submissive but long ago I was a slave. Will, rights, .. me.. had very little meaning in my life and that destroyed a good chunk of my self esteem for years. Often I have felt myself slipping back into those patterns of slavery but thankfully I have escaped its clutches so far. Slavery is damaging to me in a way that nothing else can top. For me, choosing to submit is something done happily with a lot of empowerment flowing through me. It makes me feel confident, strong, needed and peaceful. Whereas slavery made me feel undervalued and only good for the role I filled.
I am not a slave. Some of us are not able to walk that path. I have done it and was lost for years.



tazzygirl -> RE: Afraid To Be A Slave (2/25/2010 5:54:45 PM)

hi heartfelt

wonderful post!

often i have said... and it pisses some off... that most slaves start out being submissives, meaning the trust level isnt there... yet. Over time, trust develops, allowing the relationship to grow deeper. before you know it, with the right dominant, your a slave... lol... and you will never see it coming.

now, this isnt true for all submissives... or slaves. those who play (and thats not a dig, some just prefer to do casual play) give up that control based upon agreed upon terms, then regain them afterwards. or at least that is my understanding.

for myself, its all about the trust. once that is gained, the doors open and there is very little i can, or want, to say no too.



lovingpet -> RE: Afraid To Be A Slave (2/25/2010 5:55:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

For those who are in M/s relationships where you as the s-type have taken on your Master's limit, thereby not limiting His authority in your life, did you face such fears, if so, how did you deal with them? Or do you still have them?



I want to look at your specific question because that is one I can answer.  I really can't say how I feel about being called his slave, but I can say that it has been both a scary and very natural thing to let go things to the point that I am today.  I found it most intimidating when I had to choose to hand something over to him.  He has my ALL, but in some areas he does not utilize it and it seems to be because he wants me to get to a place of need and desire for him to exert that control.  That is very hard to do.  It means I am saying I have this thing that matters so much to me, but I need his hand upon it.  It is so much easier when he just takes up something himself and I just have to watch it go.

I have taken on his limits as my own rather than imposing mine on him.  The scary thing was how far apart our limits were, with mine the more conservative list by far.  That means I am well outside of any measure of a comfort zone.  I don't think we've crossed into but maybe two of those off limits territories and it happened rather quickly.  Others lay down the road and I know this full well.  Those things are very scary to me, but I trust him.  He has taken his time with me and pushed slowly in those directions.  He won't do it until he knows I can handle it.  I appreciate that.  He doesn't have to and he knows it.

I think if there wasn't some area that he pressed in me that didn't give me a little butterflies I would think something was wrong.  He always has me growing and changing, facing demons, and confronting preconceived notions.  That is an endless well for him to use.  Doing such things is scary.  It is never easy.  If it were, we'd have done it on our own by now.  I love that he believes I am capable.  I think sometimes he accepts me and respects me more than I do myself and that is an amazing thing.  No, the fear never quite goes away, but it is fear of me, not him.  I know I am safe and I know whose arms I will be in when it's all over.

lovingpet



kyraofMists -> RE: Afraid To Be A Slave (2/25/2010 6:19:36 PM)

Oh, hell yes! Over five years ago, there was no way in hell I was going to be a slave; I was not going to give someone that much authority in my life. What is that saying, "The best laid plans of mice and men..."?

The first step for me in overcoming those fears were to find someone with a character that I admire and could trust with my life. I didn't look at his list of likes/dislikes and match them up with mine; if I had done that I would have slammed that door so fast. Is he someone who plays fast and loose with the truth or is he honest and forthright? Does he do things recklessly without consideration of the consequences or does he look at it from all angles and decides what would be best for the relationship?

He lives his life with integrity and he has a code of honour that he adheres to no matter how difficult it may make things for himself. "Do my will; harm none" is what he lives by and over the last five years I have watched him walk that truth. He has put aside things he wanted and desired because he was not certain that it wouldn't harm our relationship. He spent countless hours talking and working with me, so that I could move past my fears and do his will.

The other thing for me, is that fear has been a constant companion of mine for as long as I can remember. I have social anxiety disorder; at times it is worse than others, but I cannot recall a time that it was not there. I have pushed myself time and time again to get past the fear; often I face it head on and do what I want to do despite being scared shitless. A story that is so representative of me is that I learned to downhill ski at the age of 38. Because of the anxiety, I was not one to be in sports, but skiing is a past time that everyone else in our family loves, so I pushed myself to learn. I would literally be shaking in fear, with sweat running down my back and I would force myself to get up on that hill and ski. Now, I love it and I am not sure how much of it is the activity that I love or if I love it because I conquered my fear.

In our relationship, he wasn't really willing to settle for less than having complete authority over every aspect of my life. I just can't see myself responding to him in any other way than to do his will. I work at a job that I don't enjoy because it is his will that I do it. The job is extremely stressful to me and I come home completely wiped out and I find my enjoyment in the rest of my life diminshing because of the stress. I know that he will either find a way to help me reduce the stress of he will allow me to find another job.

A big part of what he did for me was to provide a solid security base for our relationship. A lot of the fear for me has been, 'how am I going to pick up the pieces if I or it falls apart' and know without a shadow of doubt that I will not have to pick up those pieces by myself. He and Alandra will be there right along beside me; there are no individual problems, there are 'our issues' and we deal with them all together. Even if for some unknown reason, the relationship ends, he will be there to make sure I get back on my feet and that I am strong enough to carry on. That is his character and that is what I rely on.

Knight's Kyra



UniqueRaven -> RE: Afraid To Be A Slave (2/25/2010 7:12:15 PM)

i often think about how much of the need to be slave is "wired" into the person's psyche.

i often refer to myself as "slave-wired" because it is what i am. i have known since i was very, very young that i am meant to be kept by a man for his pleasure - my very earliest fantasies and daydreams were about being caged 24/7 by a man, waaaay before i even knew what sex was.

i have had a "vanilla" marriage, a very successful relatively high-powered career, and a higher education.....and am very actualized and self-confident, outgoing, balanced, and happy. But when i divorced my ex husband 7 years ago, i left my job without hesitation, walked straight into 24/7 slavery, and never looked back. i was Owned for 5 years by a wonderful man (we're still friends - life changes) and am now in the search for Ownership again.

And i have a very hard wired need to give all to a man in exactly the way you describe - and it is very healthy for me. It is what i am, and i see it as why i was created - my purpose is his pleasure, for him, and whatever he wants from me, my place in his life. i have to have his limits, i need him to take that kind of control and responsibility for me, to take all my choices away and let me just "be" - as his happy girl. It is truly wonderful.

So when i see Doms/Masters/Owners who are dead set on "turning their submissive into a slave" sometimes my eyebrow goes up. i wonder if really, ultimately, if it would be fulfilling for her - or if it would always be struggle. Sometimes it is what she needs, and the Master/Owner involved has sensed that in her and brings it out. Sometimes it isn't what she needs and things go sideways. And to be clear, i don't see being slave as "higher" or "better" in any way, just a different type of person, in a different type of relationship that is up to the individuals involved.

i know some of this is the yoga teacher in me, but i think that the happiest and most actualized submissives and slaves are those that spend time examining their "position" as their life's journey, and where they identify along the spectrum as to what is best for them. Yes, a Master/Owner can help and encourage, but ultimately the transition (if there is one) is up to her. And if it's not for her, it's not - nothing wrong with that. Embrace where you are and what you need and be happy, because nobody else is you.

i know many will disagree with me, but these are my thoughts - i'm looking forward to reading others. [:)]



Dominasola -> RE: Afraid To Be A Slave (2/25/2010 7:18:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

...there was no way in hell I was going to be a slave; I was not going to give someone that much authority in my life.



I felt the same way.  I had even concluded not long before I met my Master that I wasn't even truly submissive!

There were many times in the first few weeks of my relationship with my Master where I felt intense, paralyzing fear that I was fast on the path of getting in over my head.  Something as seemingly simple as having me kneel at his side sent red warning bells off in my head.  I have never been in an M/s relationship before, and I associated the concept of kneeling - a physical manifestation of the power dynamic that exists between us - with being an inferior being to him...something that did not go over well in my mind.

Having been raised amongst the flurry of the third wave feminist movement, the values of female autonomy didn't exactly complement the nature of the M/s dynamic that I found myself in. Although I have always been a very introverted and submissive person by nature, my mind fought viciously against the idea of handing my autonomy over to another human being.   Not being in control of myself has always been my biggest fear, and as I became aware of the type of relationship that my Master needed, I came face to face with that fear.  He spoke of molding me - from things as simple as music tastes to more complicated matters, like how I think. I seriously thought about running for the hills; I wouldn't be able to overcome my fear.  But I wanted him, and somewhere, even though my mind would have denied it, I wanted to be his.

With his help, I was able to sit down and look into myself.  I became aware of myself, my needs, and what I could offer him.  Then, I looked to him, and became aware of what his needs were, and what he could offer me. In return for my servitude, he would offer me everything that I needed - protection, intimacy, structure, etc. I was still worried about things like jobs, etc., but I could tell that he cared for me enough to never put me in a situation that would make me unhappy or anxious. Why would he want his slave to be unhappy?

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

He always has me growing and changing, facing demons, and confronting preconceived notions.

[...]

I love that he believes I am capable.



My fears of handing over complete control of my life lessened significantly when I realized that he knew I was a capable, intelligent human being.  He constantly tells me that he likes my brain, and it has become such a wonderful feeling knowing that my thought processes themselves are one element of me that pleases him.  I just have to be myself to be a good slave to him, and the realization of that helped me overcome my fear of losing control.

In the end, I just had to trust him - and myself - to alleviate the fear of relinquishing everything that I am to him. I had to trust in my assessment of him - the assessment that allowed me to relax in the relationship and trust him completely.




littlewonder -> RE: Afraid To Be A Slave (2/25/2010 7:21:09 PM)

I've never felt that fear of being a slave, of giving over all I have to someone. It's something I've always wanted, had and am again. All my relationships even when we didn't know what bdsm was were still "slavery" based in that I always did as I was told, followed while he led. It's a very strong desire for me.

I think in today's society women are taught from a very young age that they have to be all, have that high powered job, have their own home, have everything of their own without a man to be successful, to show you're a "modern woman".

But if you want to be a slave you have to realize that you can let go of all that and still be successful in life by being the best person you can, not by being defined on having it all without a man.

Once you can let go and let be then you can be free of those fears.




UniqueRaven -> RE: Afraid To Be A Slave (2/25/2010 7:23:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dominasola

Having been raised amongst the flurry of the third wave feminist movement, the values of female autonomy didn't exactly compliment the nature of the M/s dynamic that I found myself in.


See, i've always seen being slave as very feminist. i have the freedom to choose to live however i want, and this is what i choose. Quite wonderful. [:)]



Dominasola -> RE: Afraid To Be A Slave (2/25/2010 7:27:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UniqueRaven


See, i've always seen being slave as very feminist.


Oh, I do, too.  It was more the emphasis on female autonomy (almost as if we are FORCED to be independent...what irony [;)]) that created a fair amount of inner turmoil for me.



Mercnbeth -> RE: Afraid To Be A Slave (2/25/2010 7:36:23 PM)

quote:

For those who are in M/s relationships where you as the s-type have taken on your Master's limit, thereby not limiting His authority in your life, did you face such fears, if so, how did you deal with them?


it is something this slave had trained/prepared for as a youth and tried to accomplish within relationships her entire adult life. she wasn't aware that such a thing had a name like "Master/slave" relationship---or she would have sought it out when she was actively seeking out relationship partners. the closest she came to it when she was fishing in the vanilla pond was with someone who had a dominant personality but absolutely no integrity or conscience...and she almost lost her life. after several years of licking this slave's wounds, she healed and moved forward with trusting again...in herself, her path and what the Great Architect had in store for her.

to be allowed, even encouraged to submit to another's desires/direction/authority/control, without having to "keep one eye open" while we sleep or limit his authority while awake...to have that drive to surrender respected...instead of dismissed as weak/doormatish/mentally ill behavior, to have it appreciated and used by Him, unfettered, for our mutual enjoyment---it's a beautiful existence so full of warmth, security, ecstasy, companionship, compatibility, fun and pleasure, there is no room for fear.



SimplyMichael -> RE: Afraid To Be A Slave (2/25/2010 8:06:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

If i were ever in a M/s relationship instead of a D/s relationship, i know that i would be one of those that takes on my Master's boundaries and limits, not limited his authority in my life. In a D/s relationship, albeit will limits on his range of authority, in a 4 year relationship, i never said no to a command. So to get to the point of this thread. For those who are in M/s relationships where you as the s-type have taken on your Master's limit, thereby not limiting His authority in your life, did you face such fears, if so, how did you deal with them? Or do you still have them?



The problem with all this is that people put the cart before the horse. The worlds most "perfect" submissive is going to struggle in the wrong relationship or with the wrong master. Add in the fact that we all have "issues" of one form or another, we all have problems of some sort, and of course, some more than others. Until you meet someone who makes you WANT to let go because time and time again, you turn around and they are there, the nightmare looks in the window and there they are to take care of you, the reach across the bed to touch you without you even having to say anything OF COURSE YOU ARE NOT GOING TO FEEL SAFE BEING A SLAVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know people who are world class dominants, amazing men who would laugh at the thought of someone "being" a slave at the start of a real relationship. It is something you grow into with some who proves themselves as worthy of your trust as you are of theirs.





sublizzie -> RE: Afraid To Be A Slave (2/25/2010 8:28:14 PM)

I understand the fear. My ex messed up my life considerably before I left him. I know how badly I can be hurt when I allow someone control over my life, but that's how I'm hard-wired. I just *do* that.

When I met Santa and told him the way I am, he was concerned about taking on the responsiblity that is me but eventually decided I was worth it. I was afraid but I knew he was trustworthy and had integrity and honor. I let myself fall and he caught me.

Now I'm afraid *not* to be slave. Since his death, I am very lost. I hold on to what I know he would want me to do to help his adult children deal with his passing and all that entails. I continue my submission to him in that, but there are so many areas that I had given to him where I now have no clue where to go or what to do. It's very scary. I hadn't even realized how much he had taken over until he wasn't here anymore to control them. For me, right now, it's harder not to be a slave than it was to be one.



UniqueRaven -> RE: Afraid To Be A Slave (2/25/2010 8:29:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

The problem with all this is that people put the cart before the horse. The worlds most "perfect" submissive is going to struggle in the wrong relationship or with the wrong master. Add in the fact that we all have "issues" of one form or another, we all have problems of some sort, and of course, some more than others. Until you meet someone who makes you WANT to let go because time and time again, you turn around and they are there, the nightmare looks in the window and there they are to take care of you, the reach across the bed to touch you without you even having to say anything OF COURSE YOU ARE NOT GOING TO FEEL SAFE BEING A SLAVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know people who are world class dominants, amazing men who would laugh at the thought of someone "being" a slave at the start of a real relationship. It is something you grow into with some who proves themselves as worthy of your trust as you are of theirs.



i agree with the fact that it is very important to have someone who makes you want to let go - feel safe to let go. i have been in situations and relationships where i have felt a need to protect myself because i wasn't sure i could trust him with "everything" in the way that i need.

But i still contend that there are submissive women who will never reach that point of "letting go" completely, no matter who is the D-type in her life, or how "safe" he enables her to feel. And that's fine, not everyone is fulfilled in that way.

i also contend that you can be slave from the very beginning of the relationship - if that's your identity. i have a hard time not being slave. But that's a different thread. [:)]



SimplyMichael -> RE: Afraid To Be A Slave (2/25/2010 8:46:49 PM)

I wouldn't want a woman who could be a slave to anyone but me.



Icarys -> RE: Afraid To Be A Slave (2/25/2010 8:50:20 PM)

quote:

I know people who are world class dominants, amazing men


Yeah I saw them competing in the Domilympics. One especially amazing man from the US(I was so proud. My home country..I couldn't believe it!) took the gold metal for making a slave kneel in 3 seconds flat. It was sweet. China took the silver in a little over 4...[:D]

Took that last part out..wouldn't want to offend anyone...



LPslittleclip -> RE: Afraid To Be A Slave (2/25/2010 9:06:49 PM)

i started out being a play bottom and have progressed to being a slave as the trust has deepened. when i was asked by my Mistress asked me to become Her slave i was hesitant not because of trust but of my own feling of inadaquacy and not wanting to disapoint my Mistress. it took me a few weeks before i could discuss the issues with my Mistress but i was releived to learn that my expectations were overly high and that the changes would be minimal and any issues would be discussed and dealt with as they surfaced. with the Dominant that is right for you the union can be something that benifits not just the T/two of Y/you but A/all of those that are in your family as it has for mine. no matter what the issues make sure to communicate them to your Dominant or it cant be dealt with



UniqueRaven -> RE: Afraid To Be A Slave (2/25/2010 9:07:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I wouldn't want a woman who could be a slave to anyone but me.


A little tongue in cheek here, just discussing, no disrespect intended. [;)]

This doesn't make sense to me - it implies that a woman only could have one M/s relationship in her whole life. What if you were to die way before her? Is she doomed to be a "slave spinster"? Relationships do end, and change, over time.....is she only allowed one in her life?

Also good luck to her finding you in the millions of Doms on this planet...... [:)]



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