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RE: God Helps with Personal Decisions, Most Americans Say - 3/13/2010 1:35:17 PM   
Brain


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Status: offline 		Yes, it's no wonder that US is a mess.

(in reply to rulemylife)
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RE: God Helps with Personal Decisions, Most Americans Say - 3/13/2010 2:05:48 PM   
GotSteel


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Status: offline 		Please stop hijacking the thread, you can get your own, they are free.

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RE: God Helps with Personal Decisions, Most Americans Say - 3/13/2010 3:03:26 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Yes, it's no wonder that US is a mess.


The US is a mess because there are some people who would pimp their grandma to make a buck... these are the biggest problems we have, because those types of people are the ones that run banks and insurance companies and lobby our politicians, and our politicians are so power hungry they'd pimp their daughters...

It isn't because Joe Schmo goes to church on Sunday and asks God to give him guidance on accepting a job in Seattle or Jenny Sue asks God to protect her unborn fetus from harm, or because Mrs Smith prays her kid gets into Yale...

Really... talk about the melodrama going on here 

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 3/13/2010 3:04:07 PM >

_____________________________

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RE: God Helps with Personal Decisions, Most Americans Say - 3/13/2010 3:06:54 PM   
breath2009


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RE: God Helps with Personal Decisions, Most Americans Say - 3/13/2010 5:05:46 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Yes, it's no wonder that US is a mess.


The US is a mess because there are some people who would pimp their grandma to make a buck... these are the biggest problems we have, because those types of people are the ones that run banks and insurance companies and lobby our politicians, and our politicians are so power hungry they'd pimp their daughters...

It isn't because Joe Schmo goes to church on Sunday and asks God to give him guidance on accepting a job in Seattle or Jenny Sue asks God to protect her unborn fetus from harm, or because Mrs Smith prays her kid gets into Yale...

Really... talk about the melodrama going on here 


And again, you have yet to address the topic.

Just to refresh your memory, once again:


  • 71 percent said they believe that when good or bad things happen, these occurrences are simply part of God's plan for them. 
  • 61 percent indicated they believe God has determined the direction and course of their lives.
  • 32 percent agreed with the statement: "There is no sense in planning a lot because ultimately my fate is in God's hands."

Your examples of why the U.S. is a mess have some validity but look at the broader picture of why so many allow themselves to be taken advantage of that way.





< Message edited by rulemylife -- 3/13/2010 5:07:55 PM >

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RE: God Helps with Personal Decisions, Most Americans Say - 3/13/2010 5:29:31 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife


No, I think it actually says a lot about those people who base their lives on what they feel and believe instead of what they can confirm and substantiate.




I think the part you are missing is: many, if not, most or all, of the " Faithful " < insert any religion > believe there is confirmation of God's existence and it has been substantiated to them. Substantiated by their own criteria. I am one of those. CPK illustrated that nicely in her post.


I have an elderly aunt who finds that substantiation in everything from the sun rising (God made it happen) to the earthquake in Haiti (it was God's will).

I can substantiate anything by my own criteria but that just makes a mockery of the word and leaves it meaningless.

quote:


I think most people base many decisions on things they can't confirm/substantiate. It's called taking a risk.


Simple examples would be:

1-One gets a job offer, requiring them to move far from where they are.  They believe, based on their criteria, that this will be a better job, and be a good move for the family. They sell their home, leave what they know and move to the better job. Is their any proof that the job will be better or that the family will be better off ? Not really, there is an educated guess.

2- many people base a good portion of their life, some: even all of their life, on a political ideology. I'll make it simple. Many people believe that this Healthcare bill is the best thing for this country. No one has any proof or confirmation of that. It's their belief, based on their ideology. And they want to inflict their ideology on everyone, based on something they can't confirm or substantiate. Is their belief any less valid than mine ? No, they have come to that belief based on what they feel and believe.

3- More philosophically : Who can substantiate/confirm Love ?  Just like religion, there are all kinds of ways to love, There are individual criterias for love. They're called feelings and beliefs. Many people build an entire lifetime and family around what they believe is love.



No, what you call examples of belief are actually rational judgments based on available facts.

So in those cases there are many things that can be confirmed and substantiated to lead someone to a rational decision based on the facts available.

The opposite example would be doing something because you believe God wants you to.






< Message edited by rulemylife -- 3/13/2010 5:31:04 PM >

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RE: God Helps with Personal Decisions, Most Americans Say - 3/13/2010 5:37:57 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Yes, it's no wonder that US is a mess.


The US is a mess because there are some people who would pimp their grandma to make a buck... these are the biggest problems we have, because those types of people are the ones that run banks and insurance companies and lobby our politicians, and our politicians are so power hungry they'd pimp their daughters...

It isn't because Joe Schmo goes to church on Sunday and asks God to give him guidance on accepting a job in Seattle or Jenny Sue asks God to protect her unborn fetus from harm, or because Mrs Smith prays her kid gets into Yale...

Really... talk about the melodrama going on here 


And again, you have yet to address the topic.

Just to refresh your memory, once again:


  • 71 percent said they believe that when good or bad things happen, these occurrences are simply part of God's plan for them. 
  • 61 percent indicated they believe God has determined the direction and course of their lives.
  • 32 percent agreed with the statement: "There is no sense in planning a lot because ultimately my fate is in God's hands."

Your examples of why the U.S. is a mess have some validity but look at the broader picture of why so many allow themselves to be taken advantage of that way.






I have consistently addressed the thread

quote:

71 percent said they believe that when good or bad things happen, these occurrences are simply part of God's plan for them.


Yeah, they do not believe in a random universe... I get that, I am not surprised about it, and I remain unthreatened by such beliefs and seriously wonder why you are

quote:

61 percent indicated they believe God has determined the direction and course of their lives.


Again, I wonder why you would be surprised by this, find it alarming, and "worry" that these people believe such things...

quote:

  • 32 percent agreed with the statement: "There is no sense in planning a lot because ultimately my fate is in God's hands."


This quote is the one that could be troubling, but only if these are the people that think it is okay to destroy the planet because God is going to come and rapture them anyways.. but that WASN'T the question was put...

Guess what, I know this is going to shock you, but MOST (as in the vast majority of humanity) believes things like this, or very similar things...I would call all those things mainstream beliefs, not far out, not scary and not threatening...

I am more threatened that you are scapegoating a whole group of people for all the problems this country faces because they say they believe in god... to me that is just freaking whacked



< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 3/13/2010 5:38:23 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: God Helps with Personal Decisions, Most Americans Say - 3/13/2010 5:51:48 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Here is what I know, people since the dawn of time have spiritual experiences..... so these experiences to YOU are meaningless. To those who have them they give their lives meaning. You are shitting on that by mocking people. You are the one out of step, you are the one that is out of the norm, you are the one that isn't "getting it"... but go on telling yourself that you are superior and logical...


Wow!

You are the perfect example of what the article is about.

You are so blinded by your "faith" that you find offense in anyone daring to question or examine your beliefs.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: God Helps with Personal Decisions, Most Americans Say - 3/13/2010 5:58:05 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Here is what I know, people since the dawn of time have spiritual experiences..... so these experiences to YOU are meaningless. To those who have them they give their lives meaning. You are shitting on that by mocking people. You are the one out of step, you are the one that is out of the norm, you are the one that isn't "getting it"... but go on telling yourself that you are superior and logical...


Wow!

You are the perfect example of what the article is about.

You are so blinded by your "faith" that you find offense in anyone daring to question or examine your beliefs.



Actually I have little faith in "god".. but I do not mind other people who do

If you think this is about my beliefs, it is not. I think you are fear mongering against people who do believe rather normal stuff... like god as they understand that concept intervenes in their lives, that they want to consult god as they understand that concept to chart the course of their lives.. it gives their lives meaning. You may not understand that, but it does not make them wrong, or scary, or threatening to you or your way of life


Edited to add, you had to project me as being one of the "faithful" because you can't handle that not all people agree with your opinions


< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 3/13/2010 5:59:27 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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RE: God Helps with Personal Decisions, Most Americans Say - 3/13/2010 5:58:06 PM   
belladevine


Posts: 437
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		The most important criteria that seperates humans from lower species is INTELLIGENCE.
If a person is going to make rational decisions, he must first be presented with ALL of the facts.

FACT: Throughout the animal kingdom "screams and shreaks" are used as distress/alert calls. Even rabbits, that generally make very little or no sound SCREAM when being attacked by a predator.

FACT: People often ignor distress calls.

Jesus also said, "Is there not a wise man among you?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human


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RE: God Helps with Personal Decisions, Most Americans Say - 3/13/2010 6:16:22 PM   
GotSteel


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Status: offline 		could be troubling.....

could be troubling...........

One third of American have had a lobotomy for Jesus, that's horrifying.

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RE: God Helps with Personal Decisions, Most Americans Say - 3/13/2010 6:18:51 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Why not let the majority rule and the laws pass the constitution test.

That's exactly what the non religious want.


Well by God we agree...lol.. it is nice to do that now and then.

Butch

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RE: God Helps with Personal Decisions, Most Americans Say - 3/13/2010 6:21:50 PM   
belladevine


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Jesus also said, "forgive them father for they KNOW NOT what they do".

I say, "to hell with forgiveness, hang baby mutilating scum bags from the highest tree!"

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: God Helps with Personal Decisions, Most Americans Say - 3/13/2010 6:22:32 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

could be troubling.....

could be troubling...........

One third of American have had a lobotomy for Jesus, that's horrifying.


Well... I think the way the questions in that poll were designed it is something that I could well have replied affirmatively to at one point in my life, and I have never had a lobotomy for Jesus....

I think a better gauge would be to ask a more direct question... such as when Earthquakes happen do you believe that is the will of god? I bet some people would have answered in a vastly different manner had the questions been put to them differently.


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: God Helps with Personal Decisions, Most Americans Say - 3/13/2010 6:22:38 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


I have consistently addressed the thread

quote:

71 percent said they believe that when good or bad things happen, these occurrences are simply part of God's plan for them.


Yeah, they do not believe in a random universe... I get that, I am not surprised about it, and I remain unthreatened by such beliefs and seriously wonder why you are


I am threatened by it because it leads to a passive superstitious belief that we are not in charge of ourselves, which I realize is a comforting thought to some, but it leads to a culture where we are led to believe not to trust our own judgment.

quote:

61 percent indicated they believe God has determined the direction and course of their lives.


quote:

Again, I wonder why you would be surprised by this, find it alarming, and "worry" that these people believe such things...



I wonder why you do not find it alarming.

I find it pretty startling that 61% of the population believes that supernatural forces control their lives.

quote:



32 percent agreed with the statement: "There is no sense in planning a lot because ultimately my fate is in God's hands."


quote:

Guess what, I know this is going to shock you, but MOST (as in the vast majority of humanity) believes things like this, or very similar things...I would call all those things mainstream beliefs, not far out, not scary and not threatening...

I am more threatened that you are scapegoating a whole group of people for all the problems this country faces because they say they believe in god... to me that is just freaking whacked



People believe a lot of things that don't make any sense.

Blacks were only partially human according to what most people believed at the time.

Jew were an inferior race according to what most people in Germany believed at the time.

I would call adhering blindly to "mainstream beliefs" to be what is "freaking whacked".

By the way, are you sure you're not a conservative Republican?  Seems I've heard something about those "mainstream beliefs" somewhere before.






< Message edited by rulemylife -- 3/13/2010 6:31:37 PM >

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RE: God Helps with Personal Decisions, Most Americans Say - 3/13/2010 6:29:04 PM   
juliaoceania


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Status: offline 		You are a fear mongering person and have much more in common with the likes of Dick Cheney than I do... look at what you post because people believe differently! Even comparing people to Nazis, etc, because they want to believe life has more meaning than we are born and die and that there is a plan out there for them.

What ,do you want to round up all the faithful and deport them? Maybe put them in reeducation camps?

Wow... you are astonishing... laughing at you... seriously, you are what gives Atheists a bad name...

I remember when I used to go into yahoo chat I went into a religion and belief room called "Atheists vs Christians"... I ended up thinking both sides were nuts.... you read like a lot of Atheists I found in those rooms... I wonder, did you have a bad experience with religion or something?

I didn't have any negative experiences to taint my view... irreligious parents and irreligious myself... I have no soldier in your crusade.




_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: God Helps with Personal Decisions, Most Americans Say - 3/13/2010 6:31:10 PM   
Smutmonger


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Status: offline 		God may forgive some asshat neochristian hypocryte-but if they sin against ME-there will be hell to pay! I want atonement-I want to see BLOOD.

quote:

ORIGINAL: belladevine


Jesus also said, "forgive them father for they KNOW NOT what they do".

I say, "to hell with forgiveness, hang baby mutilating scum bags from the highest tree!"


_____________________________

I didn't get into an alternative lifestyle to explore new frontiers in conformity.

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RE: God Helps with Personal Decisions, Most Americans Say - 3/13/2010 6:36:18 PM   
takemeforyourown


Posts: 430
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Status: offline 		I believe in God. Although I do not know the nature of God. My God belongs to no mainstream religion. I love God, as my creator, for all the wonderful things in this universe and in my life. However, I don't necessarily believe that God concerns Itself with me on a daily basis. I don't necessarily believe that God requires my praise or obedience. I just try to live according to a moral code which, basically, boils down to; Do No Harm and Help One Another. I don't know exactly where that puts me in the polls. Who cares?

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RE: God Helps with Personal Decisions, Most Americans Say - 3/13/2010 7:00:49 PM   
maybemaybenot


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Status: offline 		For Rule and Steel :

82 percent of participants reported that they depend on God for help and guidance in making decisions.

Where are you reading in this that personal responibility is being abandon by the poll takers ?  They are depending on God to help them make their decisions. They are not saying I'm not repsonsible for my decision, they are saying they seek Gods guidance.  If you consult your significant other when making decisions, are you abandoning your personal responibility for that decision ?

  • 71 percent said they believe that when good or bad things happen, these occurrences are simply part of God's plan for them.

    Again, where are you reading that they are giving up personal responibilty ? I don't subscribe to this belief, but just because someone thinks that the good or bad thing is God's plan, they still must deal with the results of that good or bad thing. So, personal responsibilty is in handling what God gives you. AKA: personal responsibility.
     
    Let me ask you a hypothetical : If you lose your job due to corporate downsizing, or somethig you have no control over, where is your personal responsibilty ? It's in dealing with the fallout, not in the lay off .


  • 61 percent indicated they believe God has determined the direction and course of their lives.

    Where is the abandonment of personal responsibilty here ? They may believe that the direction and course is predetermined, but where does that lead to no personal responsibility ? They aren't saying every moment and accurance in their life is in God's hands, they are saying that the course is mapped out. Just cuz you got a map, doesn't mean your gonna get there by magic. You have to navigate your way thru.
     
  • 32 percent agreed with the statement: "There is no sense in planning a lot because ultimately my fate is in God's hands."
    Like I said, I don't understand this one at all, and the percentage is low, so I would say " Most Americans " do not believe this but a small percentage does.
     
    I am still not conceding that this poll was strictly Christian poll takers. However, since you two and a few others seem hell bent on declaring that Christianity condones abandoning personal responsibility, you could not be more wrong Here's a little reading material for you. Enjoy.

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ei=PUmcS-HLOoT68AaQ7_yvDg&sa=X&oi=spellfullpage&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=2&ved=0CAYQvwUoAQ&&q=christian+personal+responsibility&spell=1


                           mbmbn

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    RE: God Helps with Personal Decisions, Most Americans Say - 3/13/2010 7:04:57 PM   
    rulemylife


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

    You are a fear mongering person and have much more in common with the likes of Dick Cheney than I do... look at what you post because people believe differently! Even comparing people to Nazis, etc, because they want to believe life has more meaning than we are born and die and that there is a plan out there for them.

    What ,do you want to round up all the faithful and deport them? Maybe put them in reeducation camps?


    This is exactly why the "true believers" annoy me so much.

    Can we possibly find more hyperbole?
    quote:


    Wow... you are astonishing... laughing at you... seriously, you are what gives Atheists a bad name...


    Yet again I have to repeat myself, I do not label myself as an atheist, as I've said before, which you apparently missed or willfully choose to ignore.
    quote:


    I didn't have any negative experiences to taint my view... irreligious parents and irreligious myself... I have no soldier in your crusade.


    Uhhhhhhhhhh.......................okay.

    After spending most of this thread defending a belief in God and attacking me as an atheist you now state that you are irreligious.

    Hey, guess what?  Irreligious is a synonym for atheist.




    (in reply to juliaoceania)
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