quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

Your last paragraph also is very interesting to me. Did you mean, if you didn't feel your obedience to the point that you did the things that went beyond on just obeying his commands you would be ashamed of yourself or did you mean something else?

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ORIGINAL: Dominasola

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ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

Your last paragraph also is very interesting to me. Did you mean, if you didn't feel your obedience to the point that you did the things that went beyond on just obeying his commands you would be ashamed of yourself or did you mean something else?

That's essentially it, yes.  For me, it's like...being passively obedient versus being actively obedient.  If I were passively obedient (conditioned to be obedient),  there is no real reaction on my part past performing whatever task is required of me. I think that if I were acting in this way, and realized it upon reflection, I would liken my behaviour to that of a zombie; a zombie's only impulse is to feed, but there is no brain inside...no conscious recognition of what it is doing.  It feeds to survive, and there is nothing that enables it to rise above that mediocrity.  Should I act solely out of conditioned obedience, the only purpose is to survive in the relationship (assuming he would be satisfied with this simple obedience), but there would be no desire to be better for him, or to do special things for him.

Being actively obedient, though...I respond to his moods and behaviours in ways I feel will both prove my obedience to him without his expressed orders or requests, but it also feeds my own desire to be obedient to him.  I am constantly trying to better myself, and to go up and beyond his "minimum requirements." It is the conscious sensation of my obedience to him...feeling my continued active obedience to him making him happy in everything that I do...that fuels it further.

If I could no longer feel that in my relationship, then yes, I think I would feel horribly ashamed...and even unworthy.

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ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

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ORIGINAL: UniqueRaven

i see submission and obedience as actions - actions which i am responsible for on my life's journey as slave. There is very little "attached" to my submission and obedience, as i see them as unconditional actions of choice.

Unique could you please explain what you mean by the second sentence that i have highlighted. Do you mean that once you choose who you will submit to, then your submission and obedience are without conditions or am i reading that incorrectly. Thank you for your reply.

heartfelt

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I hope I never get to a point where I would obey when it meant doing things that are wrong for me. Things that are contrary to my nature, things that are in violation of my morals and ethics.

However, because he is a good man, with matching morals and ethics, I know this will never be a situation I will have to face. And thank God for that.

But I'm not sure that developing a habit is the same as being conditioned. If we separated, I doubt I would continue to make a cup of mint tea in an oversized mug for him despite the fact that now it is routinely done when he gets up. I wouldn't feel conditioned to keep buying a tea that I don't drink or make it for someone who wasn't there to drink it. So I see a difference between the two.

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ORIGINAL: littlewonder

For me it's both.

I am an obedient person in general. It's who I am. I am not the outspoken rebellious type. At work I do as I'm told. I obey the law, I obey my parents for the most part...I obey Master because I am devoted to him and adore him. I like to make him happy. I like to see him smile..so I obey. I hate to see him unhappy in any way.

But I am also conditioned in that there are some things he knows are very difficult for me to be obedient about so over time he has conditioned me to do as I'm told because either the reward or punishment is greater than the the act or after awhile I've come to associate certain acts with another act that are enjoyable to me.

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ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

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ORIGINAL: littlewonder

For me it's both.

I am an obedient person in general. It's who I am. I am not the outspoken rebellious type. At work I do as I'm told. I obey the law, I obey my parents for the most part...I obey Master because I am devoted to him and adore him. I like to make him happy. I like to see him smile..so I obey. I hate to see him unhappy in any way.

But I am also conditioned in that there are some things he knows are very difficult for me to be obedient about so over time he has conditioned me to do as I'm told because either the reward or punishment is greater than the the act or after awhile I've come to associate certain acts with another act that are enjoyable to me.

Littlewonder,

Thank you for your reply. i understand the first paragraph as i am the same way, i obey the law, well other than speeding (grinning), i obey my boss, obeyed my parents, etc.

May i ask you a question about your second paragraph? For things that are difficult, did your Master use a combination of reward and/or punishment to bring you to a place of obedience in those things?

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt

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ORIGINAL: UniqueRaven

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ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

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ORIGINAL: UniqueRaven

i see submission and obedience as actions - actions which i am responsible for on my life's journey as slave. There is very little "attached" to my submission and obedience, as i see them as unconditional actions of choice.

Unique could you please explain what you mean by the second sentence that i have highlighted. Do you mean that once you choose who you will submit to, then your submission and obedience are without conditions or am i reading that incorrectly. Thank you for your reply.

heartfelt

Absolutely, and you can call me raven or julie if you like.

You actually hit it on the head - for me the period of discernment comes in determining the Owner and the situation in which i will serve. Once he owns me, my submission and obedience are without condition(s). This means that they are simply actions, i don't "qualify" them in any way - as i did all the "qualifying" homework during the time of choosing and being chosen by my Owner. Similar to how i feel about "no limits slavery," but that's a whooooole different thread.

i can see how my obedience does eventually become conditioned - such as if i know he always enjoys milk in his coffee or tea i would simply add it without consciously thinking about it each time. But i still see myself as responsible for my obedience - ultimately it is up to me to jump when he says jump, and him not just hope that he's inspired me enough to do so.

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ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

quote:


Absolutely, and you can call me raven or julie if you like.

You actually hit it on the head - for me the period of discernment comes in determining the Owner and the situation in which i will serve. Once he owns me, my submission and obedience are without condition(s). This means that they are simply actions, i don't "qualify" them in any way - as i did all the "qualifying" homework during the time of choosing and being chosen by my Owner. Similar to how i feel about "no limits slavery," but that's a whooooole different thread.

i can see how my obedience does eventually become conditioned - such as if i know he always enjoys milk in his coffee or tea i would simply add it without consciously thinking about it each time. But i still see myself as responsible for my obedience - ultimately it is up to me to jump when he says jump, and him not just hope that he's inspired me enough to do so.

Raven,

Thank you for your reply. (Grinning) You are correct that is a whole other thread. i agree with your last statement about seeing myself responsible for my obedience. That is part of the difference that i noticed from the Gorean side. If i am reading from that thread, Goreans believe that a slave can't be responsible for her own slavery, it is up to the Master to keep her Mastered. i find my own viewpoint on submission is more in like with yours that once i have given my word to submit to someone, it is part of my responsiblity to live up to my word and not make it his job to constantly Master or Dominate me. i personally see that as making him constantly work for my submission or not making his life easier which i see as part of my job as a person's submissive. i understand that that is not what everyone desires from a M/s relationship, i am merely stating how i see my submission and obedience.

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

What she was describing as being conditioned to obey was not acting like an automaton, not going beyond the bare minimums of obedience, but rather that the idea of actually disobeying a command was not even considered an option. Not merely because of a fear of punishment for not obeying but also because of so needing the relationship (where disobedience or becoming more trouble in having to deal with disobedience would end the relationship) or of needing to be pleasing to her Master made the concept of actually disobeying not a viable option.

Would that hopefully better description of what she meant make your answer any different?

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ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

quote:


You actually hit it on the head - for me the period of discernment comes in determining the Owner and the situation in which i will serve. Once he owns me, my submission and obedience are without condition(s). This means that they are simply actions, i don't "qualify" them in any way - as i did all the "qualifying" homework during the time of choosing and being chosen by my Owner. Similar to how i feel about "no limits slavery," but that's a whooooole different thread.

i can see how my obedience does eventually become conditioned - such as if i know he always enjoys milk in his coffee or tea i would simply add it without consciously thinking about it each time. But i still see myself as responsible for my obedience - ultimately it is up to me to jump when he says jump, and him not just hope that he's inspired me enough to do so.

Raven,

Thank you for your reply. (Grinning) You are correct that is a whole other thread. i agree with your last statement about seeing myself responsible for my obedience. That is part of the difference that i noticed from the Gorean side. If i am reading from that thread, Goreans believe that a slave can't be responsible for her own slavery, it is up to the Master to keep her Mastered. i find my own viewpoint on submission is more in like with yours that once i have given my word to submit to someone, it is part of my responsiblity to live up to my word and not make it his job to constantly Master or Dominate me. i personally see that as making him constantly work for my submission or not making his life easier which i see as part of my job as a person's submissive. i understand that that is not what everyone desires from a M/s relationship, i am merely stating how i see my submission and obedience.

quote:

ORIGINAL: alittleevil
Hello ladies,

Wonderful thread, heartfelt and great discussion here.  If i might offer some additional input as to the above, you might be imagining some things just a bit too literally. It is certainly up to me to be obedient and pleasing to Master's tastes. That is my responsibility and it requires sometimes hard work and dedication and conscious efforts on my part.  Master certainly doesn't run around behind me all day with a whip making me obey (lol!)--that's not only funny to think about but backwards from my perspective as well. 

However, he, ultimately, is responsible for keeping me enslaved.  That isn't something i can do on my own, no matter how deeply obedience and the desire to please run. If i step out of line or neglect to please (cause, you know, human and all :-) ), it is up to him to make sure that it isn't worth it to repeat the offense.  It is his prerogative to instruct me in how he wants things. And most importantly it is up to him to have the rock solid, uncompromising expectation that i will do as he says and wishes.  If i rise from my (figurative) knees, i have to know he will not allow that.  It's security, it's peaceful, it's pleasurable, if not always easy.   Master both does and doesn't run around dominating me all day--he simply is dominant and because he is a man that i crave to belong to, but he doesn't have to go out of his way (usually) to keep me at his feet and honestly, he's not likely to, nor to keep me if the work involved outweighed the value. So it's that, a Master's subtle and not-so-subtle way of keeping a slave craving, her being simply expected to obey/serve/please or else, and being uncompromising (not in insane ways) with her that enslaves her. Master doesn't have to work for my submission--he simply is what he is and does what he does--and in turn, i respond to him by "having no choice" but to obey and please him.  There isn't another option if i want him, and i do.  I hope this gives a little different perspective on the matter. :-)

Best,
aj

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ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I hope I never get to a point where I would obey when it meant doing things that are wrong for me. Things that are contrary to my nature, things that are in violation of my morals and ethics.

However, because he is a good man, with matching morals and ethics, I know this will never be a situation I will have to face. And thank God for that.

But I'm not sure that developing a habit is the same as being conditioned. If we separated, I doubt I would continue to make a cup of mint tea in an oversized mug for him despite the fact that now it is routinely done when he gets up. I wouldn't feel conditioned to keep buying a tea that I don't drink or make it for someone who wasn't there to drink it. So I see a difference between the two.

Thank for your reply. Your reply brought up an additional question, i hope it isn't too personal.

What if it was not something that violated your moral code, although that is what was mentioned in the post that started me pondering this. What if just was something that was hard for you, not something that would be bad for you or in opposition to your moral code, but just something that made you uncomfortable, that was outside your comfort level? Would obedience be your initial response?

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedbyPF

Sheesh heartfelt, you really need to stop posting such trivial questions and think of something more thought provoking!  

As you read my response you might think that what I'm saying doesn't have anything to do with the question, but I swear it does :) It loops back to it!

When I started looking for a Master I knew cetain things about myself due to a previous relationship and alot of self introspection. I knew that with a certain type of man everything I had thought, or felt, or wanted to do, or not do, was subject to change. I learned that I could be molded into anything a certain type of man wanted me to be. I knew that hard limits were a joke for me because they could all be tossed aside rather easily. I also knew that it was really hard for me to say no to people, so I had to be quite careful in my search.

I didn't look for someone who matched my thoughts, or my limits or anything else. I looked for a good man. I looked for someone that took care of his pets, and kids, and house, and toys. I looked for someone who knew how to set goals and make them happen. I looked for someone who was utterly in control of his life. I looked for someone who was amazingly smart with great judgement and the ability to say... I was wrong, I need to rethink this approach. I looked for someone who could be harsh, strict, unyeilding and uncompromising. I looked for someone who could pick me up when I was feeling like a mess. 

Do you see what I mean? I needed someone strong enough to enslave me. I needed someone who was a really good man that I could trust with that enslavement. It took some time... I peeked at alot of men and said.... ohhhh no no no! Because I had to make sure I didn't wind up with someone who would simply abuse me or leave me. It was character that I was looking at... everything else was moot. Everything else would wind up being defined by him, not me... rules, expectations, thoughts and desires.

So this wraps around to what Focus said.... trust and time has put me in the place that my obedience is a conditioned response. On some level there is a choice... obey or be whipped then obey. Obey, don't get whipped aaand bonus, get his affectionate pat on the head or stroke of the hair. But it's wrapped up in so much conditioning that I don't actually think it through... I respond.

I want to please him so that yes, he keeps me. I want to please him so I don't get punished. It's because of how he is though that this happens. I am not someone who will knock myself out to please for the sake of it... it is illicited from me. That desire and need to please him is something he pulls from me because of who he is and what he does to me. It's like alittleevil said, "And most importantly it is up to him to have the rock solid, uncompromising expectation that i will do as he says and wishes."
 
I am submissive by nature and yes even dorrmattish, but if I can find an acceptable way of not doing something I don't want to do, I will go that route. He doesn't allow that. Even if it's hard, I might chew my lip for a half second as I think about how hard this particular thing is, but it doesn't occur to me that I have the option of saying no... if I had that thought I woudn't be enslaved the way I need to be enslaved.

I hope that long post made some kinda sense to you... lol, I'm not sure it did!
~s