quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

The other day i was reading in the Gorean section (and please that is not a request to comment on the difference between Gor and BDSM) and a question was asked and comments made that sparked an idea for a question of my own.

The question and the comment had to do with obedience and why a slave obeys. The person making the comment was promoting the idea of obedience becoming a conditioned response and she also mentioned in some M/s BDSM-style relationships that the act of obedience, even after years together, is still an active conscious choice on the part of the s-type.

Which got me wondering, if you identify as a slave, is it either all conditioned responses to obey or is it all conscious, willful choices to obey or a combination of the two. And if you identify as a Master which are you striving for from your slave, a conditioned response to obey or a conscious willful choice to obey and why are you looking for that kind of obedience response?

i am aware that some actions become rote after time, and the post that sparked these questions mentioned that part of what can show if someone has been conditioned to obey is to ask her to do something that she would have formerly objected to. While i am reticent to add that part to the mix as i am hoping this thread doesn't degrade into a limits thread, if you are a slave and you are conditioned to obey, how did you know when it became an internal conditioned response and no longer a willful conscious choice? And when you became aware that you were now internally conditioned to obey whether you really wanted to consciously or not, what was your reaction to that knowledge?

Thank you in advance for your replies,
heartfelt

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

For me, it is really just who I am in my interactions with him. There are a bunch of choices, both conscious and unconscious that are or have been made to get me to this point. I don't think he had to condition me to be obedient; I do think that he worked with me so that my primary thought before making any decision or choice would be "What is his will".

There are certain people that I respond very obediently to and it is not a conscious choice. One of the first times that I spent any length of time with his brother, I learned that I will submit to him and I have to make a conscious choice not to if it goes against my Lord's will. We were sitting around a camp fire and he told me "Kyra, go get me a pop". I started to stand up to do it and his brother said "Kyra, sit down! He can get his own damn pop", and I sat down. Then I had to remind myself which one I was required to obey. His brother was oblivious to my reaction and he found it amusing.

Knight's Kyra

Thank you Kyra for your reply. The concept that you mentioned in the first paragraph, would that go along with your Lord's comments (not sure what address to use to make this make sense (grinning)) the other day about not giving rewards but wanting the behavior to flow from an internal place?

And to address your second paragraph, i have people who affect me the same way. i have had to built up a wall to not instinctively obey them.

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt

Kyra points out a couple key things that I want to dwell on...

One she reached a point of Internalization of her obedience to me be focused her mindset to of "what is my will" in her actions and that just doesn't happen without some thought and effort.

two... however... that internalization in my view would never occured unless there was some innate connection between us that resonated with her on some level. Her being aware or unaware of it is rather irrelevant. The fact is.. it affected her. I still smile the day the incident with my brother occurred. She commented on the similiarities of the two of us... but until that very moment she wasn't actually aware to the degree that these similiarities would affect her. I affected her... and it wasn't until we had afew interactions that we became aware of it. It wasn't so immediate for us because... well 3000 miles apart does make things go slower. But WOW.. the fireworks together was and is HOT!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

We don't have a "disobey once and I'll dump you" or "disobey once and you will no longer be my slave, but if I were habitually disobedient or rebellious, if I were even considering "should I obey or disobey?" we'd either have serious problems with our limits compatibility, our D/s dynamic, or both. I'm not robotic about it, but I don't feel I make a conscious choice to obey, either. I'm his slave because I *WANT* to obey him, because I want him to have authority over me. Like alittleevil, I'm generally pretty compliant, and like doing nice things for people, but the reactions *he* draws from me are what make me capable of being in a M/s relationship with him. If I didn't react that way, I'd have had to find out if he were interested in a Top/bottom egalitarian kinky relationship instead.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

After 10 years, obedience is pretty much conditioned in. I rarely give any thought to the fact that I am obeying. Once in a while, I'll have to catch myself and say "OK, now is the time to obey here"...but that really only comes into play when I'm stressed out about something else. I'm working on my doctorate in nursing and I can get absorbed into my own little world studying or working on projects and that is really the only time I need to *remind* myself to obey immediately.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PrimalConsonance

I believe that my girl has possessed a genuine desire to submit to another for more years than she's been consciously aware of. There were elements throughout her life that brought her to where she is today. And I'm lucky to be here in that respect, since she is a wonderful submissive, and through our relationship; she is content with my behavior as I am with hers (but I sometimes feel I don't deserve her as much as she does me...we'll probably discuss this on a mutual basis for a while on some level).

To her, it feels natural and comes from not only deep inside her but also from her upbringing. She is so eager to please, and I praise her for it. From my behavior, she wants to obey. She wants to please me. She knows I'm sincere when I let her know she's made me happy and I appreciate all her efforts no matter how small or great. This fuels her submission and desire for me to be the boss of her. I don't think this is a conscious notion, but a central part of her being emotionally. She is happy when she can do what she does and know that her efforts are wanted and appreciated as they are with me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: PrimalConsonance

I believe that my girl has possessed a genuine desire to submit to another for more years than she's been consciously aware of. There were elements throughout her life that brought her to where she is today. And I'm lucky to be here in that respect, since she is a wonderful submissive, and through our relationship; she is content with my behavior as I am with hers (but I sometimes feel I don't deserve her as much as she does me...we'll probably discuss this on a mutual basis for a while on some level).

To her, it feels natural and comes from not only deep inside her but also from her upbringing. She is so eager to please, and I praise her for it. From my behavior, she wants to obey. She wants to please me. She knows I'm sincere when I let her know she's made me happy and I appreciate all her efforts no matter how small or great. This fuels her submission and desire for me to be the boss of her. I don't think this is a conscious notion, but a central part of her being emotionally. She is happy when she can do what she does and know that her efforts are wanted and appreciated as they are with me.

*snipped for brevity

Thank you CNJDom for your reply. How you describe your girl seems very similar to my interenal workings, however i know at least for me there are times that i don't want to obey. And although my life and my innate personality "condition" me to respond from obedience, i still see me making the choice to obey at times. Is it similar for your girl as well?

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt

quote:

ORIGINAL: PrimalConsonance


I'm sure that my girl does make the choice to obey at times.  I do believe that it's at those times it's special for her, and I'm sure she'd like to comment as well when she sees this posting.  I can say that there's been a time or two where she's not wanted to do something or wasn't in the mood herself, but she still submitted regardless.  It changes her immediate mood in not only an interesting way outwardly, but something deep in her.  It really is quite amazing, and touches me in a deep way as well when she does this for me. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

Knight thank you for your reply. The internalization that you mentioned seemed to be the same thing as the conditioning that i was talking about,especially when combined with an internal reaction to your Dominance, and apparently the same Dominance that your brother has(grinning). Your comments also seem to address some of the other comments that it just happened that they didn't need any conditioning, the internal connection and reaction to each other.

i know for me, part of my obedience, submission and service comes from the conditioning of my childhood as well as my innate personality.

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

I think one needs to realize that conditioning is an external process that can evolve into an internalization. But not all conditioning evolves into an internalization process. In short... we get conditioned into specific behavior because of the external consequences that we find unacceptable or acceptable IE punishment and rewards. However, internalization is about acting on the behaviors because of our own internal consequences that have little to do with the external ones.

IE... Kyra and Alandra are conditioned to consider what is my will in their choices of behavior and the condition develops because the positive consequences or negative one from me causes this conditioning. However, it goes beyond condition to an internalization when what is motivating them is not my reaction... but their own reactions internally to their behaviors. They actually don't mindfully consider what the external consequence is from me... but that that It feels good for them to do X or Y. So they do X and Y because of the internal gratifications that they get from it. As their Master.... I conditioned them into certain behaviors... and then I seek to facilitate these behaviors to be internalized. I do things like... "How did this make you feel to do X". In short... I turn their mindset from the external perceptions and more to the internal perceptions. I help them become aware of what is within.

To me it's ironic that so many focus externally on what the Dominant or Master wants etc... and all this does is inhibit the internal enslavement that I seek to facilitate with my girls. It is indeed important to be aware of it what the Dominant and Master wants... but it's equailly important in my view to enjoy and embrace the internal gratifications that are gained by the submissive or slave from doing the will of their Dominant or Master. But focusing and even savoring those gratifications.. the process of internalization of the behaviors that was externally condition start to take hold!

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

*snipped for brevity

Chewsie,

Thank you forr taking time out of studying for your doctorate to reply. May i ask when you do have to "remember" to obey, what is the motivation behind that. i get that after 10 years together, that most would be instinctual foorr lack of a better term, but am wondering when you actually do have to think about it, what is the underlying motivatiion.

Thank you agian for your reply and good luck on your doctorate,
heartfelt

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: PrimalConsonance


I'm sure that my girl does make the choice to obey at times.  I do believe that it's at those times it's special for her, and I'm sure she'd like to comment as well when she sees this posting.  I can say that there's been a time or two where she's not wanted to do something or wasn't in the mood herself, but she still submitted regardless.  It changes her immediate mood in not only an interesting way outwardly, but something deep in her.  It really is quite amazing, and touches me in a deep way as well when she does this for me. 

i get that entirely. And i know that i am about to say something that some might disagree with, but when it is hard to obey, that is when i really feel like i am actually submitting and not just being who i am naturally, if that makes any sense. i am generally easy going, very service oriented, very obedient, so when it is all flowing out of my basic personality, it doesn't "feel" like submission to me, it just feels like me being me. It is when i have to choose to obey, when my own nature doesn't want to obey, those are the times that my submission becomes very real to me and i can feel it by making the choice to obey.

Thank you for your reply CNJDom

heartfelt

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

.... What you said made a great deal of sense to me but from a great many Dominants and Masters, as you pointed out in the last paragraph, they want the s-types focus to be on how his or her action is perceived by the D-type and that the source of the obedience and service "should" flow from there and not the s-types own internal satisfaction. May i ask, was that something that you thought about before using the mechanism that you use to achieve internal enslavement and if so what do you see as the benefits or drawbacks of each method?

quote:



Although i can see wisdom in your way of achieving internal enslavement, is part of what your girls feel when they obey that they feel their submission to you. i mentioned in another post, that the chosing to obey causes me to feel my submission in a greater sense than when i obey without thinking about it. So i was curious as how your method of internalization would affect something like that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

It was indeed something I thought about.. and was doing. But it wasn't getting me the results I desired. I was very fortunate with Alandra in that she was very self-aware of what she wanted for a intimate relationship and her place in it. This is not to say that she had everything figured out or had a dresser full of labels with all the needed definitions. But she understand almost innately how to interacted with me. In many ways we didn't do this with thoughtful or introspective consideration. It wasn't until we started to bring others into our lifestyle that the issues became apparent. Not to compare others to Alandra.. but I just wasn't seeming to get the results to the same degree with others that was happening with Alandra. In fact, even in many relationships of others, they noted a distinction of where Alandra and I where at compared to themselves. It did cause me to question things for some time and even question my own skills and knowledge. There was a point that I consider If I was just extremely lucky with Alandra and the depth of enslavement was never going to happen with anyone else.. because simply she was that gifted person to walk this path like a star athlete is gifted in their given sport. Honestly that didn't set too well with me.

I logically understood that even a star athlete needed to work to achieve greatness. I just needed to find the right approach for those that maybe had more hurdles to overcome. Or better yet.. understand more why Alandra was so great in my world. In the end... I realize that much of our interactions between alandra and I was not about ME! It was about US. In short Alandra had so much already 'internalized' the way she lived and I never had to consciously working with her to get her there. It happend very naturally for us. One must remember.. that she came into my life when she was 16 and I was only but 21. It took some time but I realized with alot of reading (particularly physchology studies, journals and articles, books from the Self-help to University textbooks... My Library is over couple hundred books and just spend another 500 dollars on some text books) was key to bring someone to a state like Alandra was their ability to Internalize the way they live that would bring their own psychological need fulfillment. It was a cycle that fed itself to greater and greater heights The question then became how to do it, how to start the cycle so it would begin to feed itself... and that was the hard part!!!!

quote:



Although i can see wisdom in your way of achieving internal enslavement, is part of what your girls feel when they obey that they feel their submission to you. i mentioned in another post, that the chosing to obey causes me to feel my submission in a greater sense than when i obey without thinking about it. So i was curious as how your method of internalization would affect something like that.

feeling submission......... mmmmmmm is that like feeling happy? When do you feel happy? Do you actually feel it in the moment? or do you actually only feel it when you sit back and think about it? Are you less happy because you not consciously thinking about it when you are doing things that you enjoy?

I think the best way for me to answer this question is point you to the works of Dr Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi. The following is an article in psychology today that express an over view of his ideas. 'http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199707/finding-flow'. I have several of his books and it's was rather enlightening to me. I believe that the thoughts that come from his line of thought to be rather transferable to submission and internalization that I seek to achieve. In short.. I find the girls are more about "Being" than "Feeling" because of the internalization that we are achieving. However.. the being does not make the feelings an less but not the focus. But focus on the being the feelings do come and maybe they are even more powerful as a result. But if one is focused on feeling submissive by doing submissive things.. well it's like putting the cart before the horse in my view.

I am not sure if this really answer your question.. because you really are asking to dig deep into my own personal way of doing things that is not going to be easily expressed with just a few posts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

Thank you for your reply Focus. So for you it would be a matter of time and trust together. i know some who promote something called internal enslavement, so that obedience becomes a conditioined response, would what you are describing be different than that?

quote:



... and to internalize your will to the point that where you allow them what looks like autonomy, they are actually asking themselves what do you want them to do. Thank you for explaining how you came up with this approach.

quote:



And feeling the weight of that submission causes me fulfillment in a way that doing the things that come naturally to me doesn't. So feeling the weight of that submission, i can feel it in the moment and enjoy the fulfillment of it in the moment and i need moments when i get that feeling. For example, i am not a heavy masochist, however for years i have played with and submitted to a degree with a very heavy Sadist. The reason that i did so, is because i need from time to time to actually feel my submission, to be pushed to an area where i am actually submitting and not just doing what i do (clean, cook, laundry, organize, etc.). i need to know that what i am being asked/commanded to do is for his pleasure or it doesn't feed that need to actually submit. That is part of what i asked about the internalization. For me, i think that internalizing how it makes me feel to do whatever would not actually meet the need that it be for and about the other person and i would lose some of the satisfaction that i get from actually submitting.

quote:


ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

actually it doesn't just look like autonomy it is autonomy! But likely not meaning how you are likely seeing the word. It's not an implication of independence or freewill within the dynamic. But it is the independent and freewill to choose enslavement!... to quote an journal article for Dr Deci and Dr Ryan "Automony refers to volitoin - the organismic desire to self-organzie experience and behaviour and to have activity be concordant with one's integrated sense of self"

In short.. by self-identifying as a slave they make the choice of behaviors that are consistent with they self-identification... so here you see an important step to internalization of behaviors is to first have the self identification. of course... the self-identification needs to be authentic and that is actually even deeper to the core of reaching a point of internal enslavement in my view.

quote:



I find that often times what we describe as needs (psychological speaking) are often more a reflection of the 'motives' the generate behaviors to fulfill deeper psychological need.

simple question... does the feeling or weight of submission that you experience in these situations give you the perception of a deeper or stronger connectiveness with the Dominant and is this ultimately what is driving your motive to have these experiences (weight of submission)? or do you see something else driving this need to experience the weight of submission?

quote:



So to try to answer your question, i think i need that feeling just for myself, which now really bothers me, that i need it for myself and not as a means to be closer to my Dominant. And now i am thinking why i need it.

Thank you for giving me something to think about it, it may become fodder for another thread and thank you for your reply.

heartfelt