RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance

RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (Full Version)

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domiguy -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/16/2010 1:24:00 PM)
it would be nice if science were to pull away from such time consuming pursuits such as curing breast cancer and focus on identifying the gene that could indicate if the kid is a sociopath/psychokiller. Then upon a positive identification you could put him down without a big fucking to do. Then the scientist would be free to focus their energies on curing prostate cancer.

BoiJen -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/16/2010 1:24:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery You misunderstand. You yourself have shared that your views are your take on this, and would (in your words) thankfully disqualify you from the jury--i.e., a rational analysis of the evidence. Your perception vs. the reality of the case, whatever that may be. I did misunderstand, I apologize.

juliaoceania -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/16/2010 1:25:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoiJen quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I feel a little nauseated reading her....and I do not mean that in a metaphorical way, I mean I feel sick inside thinking that someone could advocate for the state murdering children because it costs money to incarcerate them.... just boggles I feel the same way about adults who commit murder. Such violent crimes should not be rewarded with free food and shelter for the rest of one's own life. We aren't talking about adults here, we are talking about a 12 year old. You claim to want to be a psychologist, tell me about the psychology of children at different ages... tell me about their ability to discern truth from lies, real verses imaged, action and consequences... etc.. since you are this psych person, tell me if you know the diff between a 12 year old brain and a 25 year old brain.... (not that the 12 year old in this case is actually even 12 mentally speaking, he could be younger developmentally for all we know)

kittinSol -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/16/2010 1:28:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoiJen She's also degraded her ability to conduct a civil conversation to personal attacks on intelligence. So I have to wonder.... It's not an attack on your intelligence. It's a statement of fact. You have consistently been unable to acknowledge that your condemnation of this child was derived from nothing but an emotional knee jerk to the news of his crime. You have repeatedly refused to take into account his youth, his developmental age, and anything else, such as the possibility that he might be innocent, in order to clamor for the execution of all violent criminals "to save society money". I'm terribly sorry if it's scathing, but it demonstrates a lack of scope in your thinking, a narrowness of vision, and a stubbornness, that are frequently associated with mediocre intellectual capabilities. You're not an epsilon minus, if that's any consolation.

LadyEllen -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/16/2010 1:28:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoiJen I do think the guilty in such a case should be executed. Notwithstanding your caveats, this goes right to the core of the problem in that "the guilty" - by which I shall assume you mean those found guilty in court - are rarely of the sort who cold bloodedly, with sane mind, purposefully and intentionally killed someone, and all too often not of the sort who actually killed anyone, and almost never of the sort (if they did kill) to repeat the offence. These three factors alone indicate that a death penalty is unsuitable in any justice system, unless that system feels itself to be utterly flawless and regards fundamental human rights to be disposable and takes little or no consideration for the circumstances of an offence. Under such a jurisdiction, the raped woman who fought off and killed the rapist should be executed, just the same as the mentally retarded man who killed his carer, not understanding his own strength, just the same as the woman who poisons her husband to claim his fortune and the just the same as two serial killers, one psychotic and one quite sane. E

BoiJen -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/16/2010 1:29:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Okay you have officially entered cucky and realone world....responding to a post in which Ron recounts the history of innocents being executed....you basically shrug your shoulders and state "we have the justice system we have"(?)admit its flawed...and go on to say we must work with what we have..... Someone needs to ask you this.....are you batshit nuts or what? Are you studying psychology....or are you a subject of a psychological study? I would really like to know.....because you are one dangerous little twinkkie....and I don't want to be living anywhere near you! China has one of the lowest rates of crime in the whole world and spends almost the least amount of money on their justice system. Something must be working over there. And again, can you please make the distinction between personal opinion and professional judgment? You're resulting to personal attacks. I'm not invested in this personally, what happens to the boy or not. Just because you're taking it personally identifying with the boy, for whatever reason, doesn't mean that someone else can't look at the information available (I didn't say "case" because we don't have all of the information) and make a judgment that's not based upon personal investment.

kittinSol -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/16/2010 1:36:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoiJen China has one of the lowest rates of crime in the whole world and spends almost the least amount of money on their justice system. Something must be working over there. And it's not famous for its personal freedoms, its human rights record, or its political openness either.

BoiJen -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/16/2010 1:36:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: BoiJen quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I feel a little nauseated reading her....and I do not mean that in a metaphorical way, I mean I feel sick inside thinking that someone could advocate for the state murdering children because it costs money to incarcerate them.... just boggles I feel the same way about adults who commit murder. Such violent crimes should not be rewarded with free food and shelter for the rest of one's own life. We aren't talking about adults here, we are talking about a 12 year old. You claim to want to be a psychologist, tell me about the psychology of children at different ages... tell me about their ability to discern truth from lies, real verses imaged, action and consequences... etc.. since you are this psych person, tell me if you know the diff between a 12 year old brain and a 25 year old brain.... (not that the 12 year old in this case is actually even 12 mentally speaking, he could be younger developmentally for all we know) Actually I do. Frontline highlighted the study that is often cited in brain development cases. The scientific problems, acknowledged by the study's originator exist in that the actual brain development was studied on cadavers who's medical history was unknown...only their age. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/teenbrain/work/adolescent.html I don't believe there is significant evidence to push off the responsibility of these kinds of actions solely on brain development. There's outside factors as well as inside ones. If this is a brain development issue, there's no guarantee that the boy's brain will develop ever to understand the big problem with his actions. If it's an environmental (parenting) issue, his formative years are coming to a close and it's gonna be a bitch to untrain him (and as stated earlier, it still leaves the time bomb in the boy's head waiting to be triggered). If it's a chemical issue, then it's incredibly likely he's shown signs of violent behavior that's not been uncovered yet...dead cats or birds, aggressive behavior toward other children....hell, it's already been put out there that he was aggressive toward the victim repeatedly. These are my feelings based upon the research readily available on brain development.

BoiJen -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/16/2010 1:39:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen quote: ORIGINAL: BoiJen I do think the guilty in such a case should be executed. Notwithstanding your caveats, this goes right to the core of the problem in that "the guilty" - by which I shall assume you mean those found guilty in court - are rarely of the sort who cold bloodedly, with sane mind, purposefully and intentionally killed someone, and all too often not of the sort who actually killed anyone, and almost never of the sort (if they did kill) to repeat the offence. These three factors alone indicate that a death penalty is unsuitable in any justice system, unless that system feels itself to be utterly flawless and regards fundamental human rights to be disposable and takes little or no consideration for the circumstances of an offence. Under such a jurisdiction, the raped woman who fought off and killed the rapist should be executed, just the same as the mentally retarded man who killed his carer, not understanding his own strength, just the same as the woman who poisons her husband to claim his fortune and the just the same as two serial killers, one psychotic and one quite sane. E This is why our justice systems have different degrees of homicide crime classifications and a self-defense defense (I hate how that comes out) for such situations. The various different issues behind a case can be addressed with different procedural actions within our justice system.

slvemike4u -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/16/2010 1:39:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoiJen quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Okay you have officially entered cucky and realone world....responding to a post in which Ron recounts the history of innocents being executed....you basically shrug your shoulders and state "we have the justice system we have"(?)admit its flawed...and go on to say we must work with what we have..... Someone needs to ask you this.....are you batshit nuts or what? Are you studying psychology....or are you a subject of a psychological study? I would really like to know.....because you are one dangerous little twinkkie....and I don't want to be living anywhere near you! China has one of the lowest rates of crime in the whole world and spends almost the least amount of money on their justice system. Something must be working over there. And again, can you please make the distinction between personal opinion and professional judgment? You're resulting to personal attacks. I'm not invested in this personally, what happens to the boy or not. Just because you're taking it personally identifying with the boy, for whatever reason, doesn't mean that someone else can't look at the information available (I didn't say "case" because we don't have all of the information) and make a judgment that's not based upon personal investment. You're right I am taking it personal.....very personal.I'm reading the post's of a supposedly "adult" intelligent woman.....who is pursuing a degree in a professional(mental health field?) who refuses no matter how many opportunities to back off from the statement that amounts to...."it's the act itself that determines adulthood".....Rather than the frimly established scientific fact that brains like the rest of the body go through stages of development....and in this case(that of a 12 y/o) is not nearly developed enough to have made the leaps you would have him making that of consequences and of responsibilty. In addition when I read your posts,a number of which you have gone out of your way to cite statistics of recidivism in violent boys....I think you are bringing something else to the table.....something dark and ugly that is within you.Thats for you to figure out...perhaps a competent psychologist might be able to help...but choose carefully it is my experience any bitch/bastard can gain a degree...one must be careful that thier chosen professional isn't black and dead inside.

BoiJen -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/16/2010 1:41:13 PM)
And damnit, there's a huge difference between outward violence toward all who don't agree with me and my ideals and actively threatening them or stating that those individuals don't deserve rights and feeling a particular way about how murders are treated by the American justice system. It's crazy to me that some people don't understand that.

BoiJen -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/16/2010 1:48:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u You're right I am taking it personal.....very personal.I'm reading the post's of a supposedly "adult" intelligent woman.....who is pursuing a degree in a professional(mental health field?) who refuses no matter how many opportunities to back off from the statement that amounts to...."it's the act itself that determines adulthood".....Rather than the frimly established scientific fact that brains like the rest of the body go through stages of development....and in this case(that of a 12 y/o) is not nearly developed enough to have made the leaps you would have him making that of consequences and of responsibilty. In addition when I read your posts,a number of which you have gone out of your way to cite statistics of recidivism in violent boys....I think you are bringing something else to the table.....something dark and ugly that is within you.Thats for you to figure out...perhaps a competent psychologist might be able to help...but choose carefully it is my experience any bitch/bastard can gain a degree...one must be careful that thier chosen professional isn't black and dead inside. Mike, The evidence against boys committing violent crimes is where these studies are focused. If the cited female children, I would still be citing them. In fact, a previous link I posted cited the recidivism rate of male children...the recidivism rate of female children is just a few percentage points below that. I don't control where these studies focus themselves.... In fact, I'd really like some links that cite female recidivism rates. I need them for school. However, the fact is that studies upon violent behavior focus on males. These are the same studies that forget to highlight that domestic violence between lesbians is higher than that of domestic violence between men and women. They mention it but they don't highlight the issue. I can't control that. I also think this has more of a social context than anything. I think society still believes in a large part that women are less capable of committing violent acts than men. I, however, have lived through the proof that women are just as violent, if not more violent than men. Just sayin.... Also, brain development research has only been under increased pressure over the last ten years or so. The actual cognizance affect of brain development has NOT been firmly established. It's still just a theory with little evidence behind it. The evidence is often very compelling by pulling the heart strings which was done when the supreme court ruled that individuals under a certain age couldn't be executed. The strength of scientific evidence is minimal at best. Whereas, the strength of the scientific studies of violent offenders is well seated in repetitive patterns of violence. This is where my opinion comes from.

LadyEllen -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/16/2010 1:51:19 PM)
Much as I know I might come to regret it - what with the fireworks going off here, I now have to go catch up on my law studies. Although it might be useful to look at actus reus, mens rea and diminished responsibility, that isnt on my agenda for tonight, but that isnt to say it shouldnt be on someone's "to do" list in the near future. E

BoiJen -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/16/2010 1:52:24 PM)
Yeah I got school work too. Yay for gen. ed. requirements.

LadyPact -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/16/2010 2:39:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl I have mixed feelings on this. If he committed the crime, what do you think should happen to him? The story is here I must be confused somewhere. It seems to Me that the above was the original question. Not 'what if he's inncocent' or anything else that a lot of folks have gone into a lot of extra keystrokes on. So, to answer the original question, if he committed this crime, it would be My opinion that he should be sentenced to the fullest extent of the law. From the minimal amount that I've read, I don't see any reason not to try him as an adult. To this point, I haven't seen anything in any of the stories that would link him to having psychological issues or have a defense of being mentally diminished. In My opinion, that means that the case should been seen on the facts of the act, rather than the age of the perpetrator. For the record, I think some folks are missing out on a small, but interesting detail about this scenario. The fact that the weapon that supposedly was used in the crime was a hunting rifle that his father bought for him. (Not unusual at all in many places in PA, where deer hunting is often a father and son sport.) To Me, that means two things. One, the kid had to take a junior hunter's safety course ever before he could get a hunting license at all. Two, it means that he knew that guns kill.

barelynangel -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/16/2010 2:41:30 PM)
boijen, you speak of our justice system, you do realize that you ironically are thumbing your nose at the very essence of what our justice systems is founded upon while trying to use the same system to support how you are viewing this --- its called -- wait for it -- innocent until PROVEN guilty. That system is not based on speculation and random information and bits and pieces thrown to the media to determine guilt but instead is dealt with teh concept of GUILT BEING PROVEN. Do you at all understand that concept. So you really may want to understand the justice system you proclaim to shrug and say well i am just working within the confines of our justice system because in the end what you are doing is the exact opposite of what our system is based upon -- you are deeming him guilty without any proof, only abstract information of media coverage. angel

barelynangel -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/16/2010 2:45:37 PM)
LadyPact, i agree with you to an extent. I don't see any reason for him to be tried as an adult. He is considered a child by law. I do feel however, if the courts find that he should be tried as an adult they should in fact place upon him the full consequences they would an adult -- to me, they can't say well he is an adult but not THAT much of an adult. It seems they are trying to decipher gray areas when there shouldn't be -- either in the eyes of the law he is an adult or not. If they choose to try him as an adult then the adult consequences should be placed before the jury to consider. My question however is this -- who are the peers of a 12 year old boy? angel

slvemike4u -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/16/2010 2:47:29 PM)
You know something LP,I'm not even going to argue those two facts with you...I will grant,for the purposes of this discussion both of those points....now please explain to me,as if I'm a child.....whether or not he had an adult,or fully formed,view of the consequences of his act. Whether or not you or boijen want to grant it...society has granted children special status...they are not considered mature enough to enter into contract...there are specific laws crafted to protect them from the evils of this world..etc etc...Why should all of that and more go out the window becvause we are repulsed by the crime....a 12 y/o is a child...and thwie is simply no getting around that fact.

truckinslave -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/16/2010 2:58:44 PM)
quote: There was an issue with jealousy. He told my son stuff,” said Houk’s brother-in-law, Jason Kraner, 34. “He actually told my son that he wanted to do that to her.” I doubt the trial will take long. Not that a guilty verdict will mean much to liberal nutjobs.

kiwisub12 -> RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's pregnant fiance (3/16/2010 2:59:53 PM)
Perhaps because taking a life is such a henius crime that it defies belief that a child would be capable of such an act. To be capable of such an act is not in the mind set of the average child - so therefore they would need to be tried as an adult.

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