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RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/21/2010 12:14:29 AM   
cadenas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie
quote:

and Canadians get the care, without having to worry about money


So who pays for this "free" health care in Canada?


Remember, the median American family pays, I believe, three times as much in health insurance premiums as they pay in taxes.

Canadians don't have that expense, so they come out ahead even when the taxes are slightly higher.


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RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/21/2010 12:17:32 AM   
cadenas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Our tax money to a great degree as well as some insurance that we pay into. It is a mixed system in Canada. And doctors do not work for free, but I would take a guess that their salaries aren't as high as in the


Actually, it appears that the average General Practitioner in the US makes about $163k, while the average GP in Alberta makes about $230k (two numbers I just found with a quick Google - I can't vouch for their accuracy).

US insurance companies are screwing the doctors over at least as much as the patients.


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RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/21/2010 12:42:10 AM   
cadenas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domroomiesneeded
cadenas:
quote:

Rationing? As in HMOs denying cancer treatments until it is too late, just so they won't have to pay for follow-up care? Oh wait, HMOs are a US thing.

FACT: Govt run Medicaid denies more patients healthcare than private HMOs.

Got a cite for that?
quote:


FACT: Canada's govt run routinely denies patients like me healthcare, despite paying exhorbitant taxes for this "free" healthcare.

Got any evidence of that claim?
quote:

quote:

Are there really any Canadians dying while waiting for a breast enlargement?

I'm not sure how that pertains to healthcare, but I can assure you that my grandfather who died while on one of Canada's infamous waiting lists was not waiting for a breast enlargement.

Waiting lists in Canada are for elective surgery. The one exception - in both the USA and Canada - has nothing to do with money: organ transplants, due to a lack of donor organs. If he was waiting for a transplant, then, yes, your grandfather would have died in the USA as well.


quote:

A major correction of the facts from someone who is there, unlike someone from the leftwing CNN.
Montreal’s top trauma neurosurgeon, Tarek Razek, director of trauma services for the McGill University Health Centre cited the lack of emergency helicopters as a contributing factor in the Ms Richardson's death: “Our system isn’t set up for traumas and doesn’t match what’s available in other Canadian cities, let alone in the States.”

Actually, you are misquoting him. Two sentences before he said that, he EXPLICITLY said that his comment was not about Ms. Richardson's death: "It's impossible for me to comment specifically about her case". In the full context he made that statement, he also got his facts wrong - he claimed that it was a 2.5 hour drive, when in reality the ambulance that took her only took 1.5 hours, and he also neglected to mention the Air Medic helicopters available at Montreal Airport http://www.airmedicquebec.com . It seems to me that he made his statements out of a vested interested.


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RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/21/2010 9:24:39 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Our tax money to a great degree as well as some insurance that we pay into. It is a mixed system in Canada. And doctors do not work for free, but I would take a guess that their salaries aren't as high as in the


Actually, it appears that the average General Practitioner in the US makes about $163k, while the average GP in Alberta makes about $230k (two numbers I just found with a quick Google - I can't vouch for their accuracy).

US insurance companies are screwing the doctors over at least as much as the patients.



Thank you for that statistic. I wish it were verifiable somehow. So I guess if it actually is true, than that whole argument that Canadian doctors are moving to the US to make more money in the private system is a load of hooey then.

I know it seems I'm taking my own thread off topic with this this addition. But then again, misinformation is at the core of what creates the great divide between the nations and hence all the "you're my enemy" type behaviour.

- LA


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RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/21/2010 1:27:51 PM   
mcbride


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The Canadian Institute for Health Information reveals that, contrary to what some twerps might spout, more doctors have returned to Canada than moved abroad every year since 2004.

And speaking of compassion, there are American doctors are moving to Canada as well. Dr Randall White is one of them:
"If Canadian doctors think 'government interference' is a problem in Canada, wait until they have to struggle with insurance companies for payment, have their patients' treatment dictated by insurance industry bureaucrats, or find they must treat patients for free. The U.S. is the only industrialized country that relies on charity care for a large proportion of its population. In Canada, I can treat all patients without having to worry about whether they have insurance coverage."

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RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/21/2010 1:32:50 PM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

In Canada, I can treat all patients without having to worry about whether they have insurance coverage
ORIGINAL: mcbride
Its funny, my  family doctor said exactly the same thing to me last week!!!




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RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/21/2010 2:21:17 PM   
mcbride


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I've seen a fair bit of coverage of that, ie, US doctors spending half their day on the phone trying to get permission from insurance companies for this or that treatment.

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RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/21/2010 2:25:55 PM   
ShaharThorne


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I used to work for the Dept. of Insurance for the state of Texas.  Every day, I had to handle at least 85 complaints of insurance companies not allowing the patients get medical treatment, not paying the doctors and so forth.  I even got a letter from Brazil dealing with the death of an American.


Insurance companies are just in it for the profit, not caring about the patient or client.


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RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/21/2010 2:50:58 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride

I've seen a fair bit of coverage of that, ie, US doctors spending half their day on the phone trying to get permission from insurance companies for this or that treatment.



This is an isolated case and I'm not fond of trying to prove a point with so little examples, but a few years back I went to visit my best friend in San Francisco. She had just gotten her green card. Her husband had just started a new job with a university and she had no papers proving she was ensured one way or another.

During my visit, I kept noticing her holding her stomach. I asked her if everything was ok but I could tell she was acting tough because she wanted to make sure I was having a good time. On evening, I came into her room and her face was like a greenish grey. She looked at me and told me she was going to pass out. I called a cab and we went to the closest hospital. Now you have to realise, we are used to Canadian systems where you walk in and they triage you based on your level of emergency. Well it took 4 hours for them to check her insurance before treating her. She actually passed out in the waiting room at which point a nurse came by and checked her pulse while she lay with her head in my lap. The nurse didn't acknowledge me at all or give me any feedback. You have no idea how difficult it was for me to keep my cool.

We were at the hospital 13 hours together to see a doctor who tapped around on her stomach and told her that without tests, he could not tell her what was wrong and that her insurance did not cover these tests. They ended up treating her and 5 weeks later she got a 850$ bill because apparently she didn't have the right kind of coverage.

- LA


< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 3/21/2010 2:52:53 PM >


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RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/26/2010 5:42:47 PM   
mcbride


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I'll see your drive-past, and raise you a road rage...

obama bumper sticker leads to road rage


quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

I can, but you will have to believe me or ignore me, because it was a discussion on another forum and linking/quoting those is a no-no here. This was posted on a Democrat forum, BTW.

The OP in the thread stated that, while driving home one night, she saw a mini van stranded on the side of the road, and a woman with a small child in her arms. She started to pull over and offer the woman a ride, when she spotted a republican bumper sticker on the van. In her kindness and compassion, she swerved back onto the road, sped up, and left the woman and child standing there in the dust of her wake. The replies to the OP were mixed, with some chiding her (mostly because of the child) and others telling her that she did just the right thing. A couple of lovlies even suggested that the OP should have picked her up and proceeded to lecture her on her evil, republican ways. All this due to a friggin bumper sticker.

Being a mostly non-political person, I was completely disgusted by this woman's behaviour.
The truth is, there are extremists on both sides, and they all tend to collectively suck as human beings.


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RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/26/2010 6:48:08 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride

I've seen a fair bit of coverage of that, ie, US doctors spending half their day on the phone trying to get permission from insurance companies for this or that treatment.


I wasn't aware that the doctors dealt with the insurance companies. I thought that was what the billing department was for.


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RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/27/2010 5:41:12 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride

I've seen a fair bit of coverage of that, ie, US doctors spending half their day on the phone trying to get permission from insurance companies for this or that treatment.


I wasn't aware that the doctors dealt with the insurance companies. I thought that was what the billing department was for.



I don't know about yours, but my family doctor doesn't have a billing department.

And yes, even in hospitals the doctors do deal directly with insurance companies.

I've mentioned this on here before, I had an accident that I was kept in the hospital for two days for observation.  My insurance company refused to cover it saying that I should have been treated and released.

I spoke to three of the doctors who treated me and they all said it is a common occurrence for insurance companies to routinely deny claims.

All three contacted my insurance company and the claim was eventually approved. 



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RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/27/2010 5:50:38 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride

I've seen a fair bit of coverage of that, ie, US doctors spending half their day on the phone trying to get permission from insurance companies for this or that treatment.


I wasn't aware that the doctors dealt with the insurance companies. I thought that was what the billing department was for.



I don't know about yours, but my family doctor doesn't have a billing department.

And yes, even in hospitals the doctors do deal directly with insurance companies.

I've mentioned this on here before, I had an accident that I was kept in the hospital for two days for observation.  My insurance company refused to cover it saying that I should have been treated and released.

I spoke to three of the doctors who treated me and they all said it is a common occurrence for insurance companies to routinely deny claims.

All three contacted my insurance company and the claim was eventually approved. 





Wow that really sucks. Maybe you should let your doctor know about the whole billing thing. I bet he would really love to get out from all that paperwork and start spending more time with patients. He could contact his local college. I bet they have programs for people to get their billing certificate and they could probably hook him up with someone.

Oh and you also might want to check with those 3 docs at the er. If they are handling this themselves, it could be a simple case of submitting the wrong codes. If they had hired someone to do the billing and coding, instead of trying to deal with the insurance companies themselves, you might not have had to wait as long for it to go through. That's why they have medical coding specialists, so the doctors don't have to worry about that crap and less errors get made.


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RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/27/2010 6:11:16 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy


...despite the highest expenditure on health care out of Australia, Canada, France, germany, Japan, Norway, Sweden, UK and US, the US has the lowest life expectency and the highest infant mortality rate.


Not a fair comparison.

But the international comparisons in “infant mortality” rates aren’t comparing the same thing, anyway. Americans count every baby who shows any sign of life, irrespective of size or weight at birth.
By contrast, in much of Europe, babies born before 26 weeks’ gestation are not considered “live births.” Switzerland only counts babies who are at least 30 centimeters long (11.8 inches) as being born alive. In Canada, Austria and Germany, only babies weighing at least a pound are considered live births.




Except you left out the part where it is Ann Coulter offering these statistics.

Which I haven't bothered to verify, but I tend to look at them with a little suspicion when it is her and the rest of the headline (which you also conveniently left out) reads "another liberal  health-care lie".

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RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/27/2010 6:27:21 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Wow that really sucks. Maybe you should let your doctor know about the whole billing thing. I bet he would really love to get out from all that paperwork and start spending more time with patients. He could contact his local college. I bet they have programs for people to get their billing certificate and they could probably hook him up with someone.


I have no idea if he uses an outside billing agency, but even if he does he still has to spend time on the paperwork.

quote:


Oh and you also might want to check with those 3 docs at the er. If they are handling this themselves, it could be a simple case of submitting the wrong codes. If they had hired someone to do the billing and coding, instead of trying to deal with the insurance companies themselves, you might not have had to wait as long for it to go through. That's why they have medical coding specialists, so the doctors don't have to worry about that crap and less errors get made.


First, I'm not quite sure what billing and coding has to do with it.  I'm not that familiar with how it works, but this was a straight denial of my claim.

I'm quite sure they did not call the insurance companies directly.

But they did send letters, which I received copies of.

So between the time they spent talking with me and then having their staff send out letters, and I'm sure there was quite a bit of other communication between the doctors offices, the hospital, and the insurance company, you are talking a fair amount of unnecessary administrative costs.

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RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/27/2010 10:28:43 AM   
mcbride


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Now you know.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride

I've seen a fair bit of coverage of that, ie, US doctors spending half their day on the phone trying to get permission from insurance companies for this or that treatment.


I wasn't aware that the doctors dealt with the insurance companies. I thought that was what the billing department was for.


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Profile   Post #: 216
RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/27/2010 12:52:02 PM   
mcbride


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If only it was merely some sort of billing software issue.

Doctors in the US, particularly primary care doctors, spend hours every day, dealing with insurance companies that routinely deny patients' treatment, routinely and increasingly cut payments to doctors for services already performed, and increasingly require pre-authorization for even the most routine procedures.

That time spent by doctors (and patients, and many others) is one of the most important reasons why the United States spends far more per capita on health care than any comparable country. In fact, says Professor James Kahn, "the gap is so enormous that a recent University of California, San Francisco, study estimates that the United States would save over $161 billion every year in paperwork alone if it switched to a singlepayer system like Canada's."

It's also cited by doctors as one of the main reasons so many are getting out of primary care. One example: The Toledo Blade's online survey of members of the Ohio State Medical Association and the American Medical Association showed that "99 percent of the 920 respondents reported interference by insurers in their treatment of patients.

"The survey, which was sent by the associations to their members and included 700 Ohio respondents, questioned doctors and doctors' offices about interference from insurance companies, self-insurance funds, Medicare, Medicaid, and prescription drug plans. The survey showed:

• Ninety-five percent of respondents said insurers interfered with decisions about prescriptions, 91 percent with testing, 74 percent with referrals, and 69 percent with hospitalization decisions.

• Eighty-six percent said interference compromised patient care, 76 percent said it adversely affected their patients, and 65 percent said they were unable to successfully protest denials.

• Seventy percent noted they experience interference at least once a week, with 92 percent answering that interference increased during the past five years.

• Fourteen percent believed interference from an insurer had contributed to the death or serious injury of a patient."

The AARP Bulletin reports that "[Primary care doctors'] earnings on average are half or a third of those of doctors in many specialties, yet their workdays are longer and their overhead higher. Hours spent on paperwork and phone calls for prior authorizations demanded by insurance companies reduce the time spent with individual patients."

In a recent book that asked 12,000 doctors for their thoughts, physicians reported that "difficulty with managed care organizations" was the second most "unsatisfying" part of their job, second only to reimbursement issues, which, as we've seen, is the same issue.

Do have a look at the quotes in the book preview. They're quite eye-opening. Also see Doctors Shoulder Mounting Insurance Burdens by Joanne Silberner.

So, no, not really a question of finding billing software.



quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride

I've seen a fair bit of coverage of that, ie, US doctors spending half their day on the phone trying to get permission from insurance companies for this or that treatment.


I wasn't aware that the doctors dealt with the insurance companies. I thought that was what the billing department was for.



I don't know about yours, but my family doctor doesn't have a billing department.

And yes, even in hospitals the doctors do deal directly with insurance companies.

I've mentioned this on here before, I had an accident that I was kept in the hospital for two days for observation.  My insurance company refused to cover it saying that I should have been treated and released.

I spoke to three of the doctors who treated me and they all said it is a common occurrence for insurance companies to routinely deny claims.

All three contacted my insurance company and the claim was eventually approved. 





Wow that really sucks. Maybe you should let your doctor know about the whole billing thing. I bet he would really love to get out from all that paperwork and start spending more time with patients. He could contact his local college. I bet they have programs for people to get their billing certificate and they could probably hook him up with someone.

Oh and you also might want to check with those 3 docs at the er. If they are handling this themselves, it could be a simple case of submitting the wrong codes. If they had hired someone to do the billing and coding, instead of trying to deal with the insurance companies themselves, you might not have had to wait as long for it to go through. That's why they have medical coding specialists, so the doctors don't have to worry about that crap and less errors get made.


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RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/27/2010 1:28:22 PM   
mcbride


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Aylee, it's true that some countries register premature births differently, which is the basis of what Coulter is quoting.  But, in fact, what she won't tell you is that some countries, including Canada and the Nordic countries, do register very premature babies with relatively low odds of survival as live births, exactly as the US does.

And guess what? Those other countries all have better infant mortality rates than the US.  So "different statistics-keeping" doesn't explain the much higher US infant mortality rate, which is actually higher than some of India's poorest states.

What Coulter won't mention is the troubling fact that the infant mortality rate for black babies in the US is more than double the rate for white babies. It's also higher for Hispanics, Asians and aboriginals.

Why? Income. If you're a poor American, you're more likely to die sooner.  “Income inequality is strongly associated with mortality in the United States and in North America as a whole,” one large scale study found, “but there is no relation within Canada at either the province or metropolitan area level -- between income inequality and mortality. The same study revealed that among the poorest people in the United States, even a one percent increase in income resulted in a mortality decline of nearly 22 out of 100,000. "

If Ann was tempted to argue that factors other than health care caused those deaths, she'd have to explain why the next door neighbours (who had very, very similar numbers to the US prior to adopting universal health care) don't have this problem.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy


...despite the highest expenditure on health care out of Australia, Canada, France, germany, Japan, Norway, Sweden, UK and US, the US has the lowest life expectency and the highest infant mortality rate.


Not a fair comparison.

But the international comparisons in “infant mortality” rates aren’t comparing the same thing, anyway. Americans count every baby who shows any sign of life, irrespective of size or weight at birth.
By contrast, in much of Europe, babies born before 26 weeks’ gestation are not considered “live births.” Switzerland only counts babies who are at least 30 centimeters long (11.8 inches) as being born alive. In Canada, Austria and Germany, only babies weighing at least a pound are considered live births.



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RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/27/2010 2:51:03 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride

I'll see your drive-past, and raise you a road rage...

obama bumper sticker leads to road rage



Indeed. Another glaring example. I wonder if when people see their actions reported in such light if they realise what asshats they are or if they stick with their convictions.

- LA


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RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/27/2010 5:14:48 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

First, I'm not quite sure what billing and coding has to do with it.


That is how the insurance companies know what to pay. Someone in the office staff (not the doctor) submits the codes to be paid. Then the insurance companies come up with all kinds of wonderful excuses why they shouldn't pay them.  Then the office staff jumps through all kinds of bs hoops to fix it so they can be paid. Maybe. Some day. If you are really lucky.




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