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RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/27/2010 5:27:57 PM   
Aylee


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Joined: 10/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride

What Coulter won't mention is the troubling fact that the infant mortality rate for black babies in the US is more than double the rate for white babies. It's also higher for Hispanics, Asians and aboriginals.


Actually she does mention that in the article I linked to.  She also gives the book title and author of where she is getting her stats and info. 

"One factor contributing to the U.S.’ infant mortality rate is that blacks have intractably high infant mortality rates — irrespective of age, education, socioeconomic status and so on. No one knows why.
Neither medical care nor discrimination can explain it: Hispanics in the U.S. have lower infant mortality rates than either blacks or whites."

“The Tyranny of Numbers: Mismeasurement and Misrule," Nicholas Eberstadt

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Except you left out the part where it is Ann Coulter offering these statistics.

Which I haven't bothered to verify, but I tend to look at them with a little suspicion when it is her and the rest of the headline (which you also conveniently left out) reads "another liberal  health-care lie".



That is why I linked the article.  Twit. 

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to mcbride)
Profile   Post #: 221
RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/27/2010 6:02:50 PM   
mcbride


Posts: 333
Joined: 1/14/2005
Status: offline 		Well, gosh, if you and Nicholas Eberstadt both say neither medical care nor discrimination can explain it, I guess it's just a biiiiiig mystery. As Nick says, huh?

And it can't possibly have anything to do with the closely corresponding numbers on income, right?  Nahhhhh.

And...I notice you've gone quiet on infant mortalities in relation to Canada and Nordic countries (which measure the same way as the US), but one unknowable Eberstadt mystery per post, huh?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride

What Coulter won't mention is the troubling fact that the infant mortality rate for black babies in the US is more than double the rate for white babies. It's also higher for Hispanics, Asians and aboriginals.


Actually she does mention that in the article I linked to.  She also gives the book title and author of where she is getting her stats and info. 

"One factor contributing to the U.S.’ infant mortality rate is that blacks have intractably high infant mortality rates — irrespective of age, education, socioeconomic status and so on. No one knows why.
Neither medical care nor discrimination can explain it: Hispanics in the U.S. have lower infant mortality rates than either blacks or whites."

“The Tyranny of Numbers: Mismeasurement and Misrule," Nicholas Eberstadt

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Except you left out the part where it is Ann Coulter offering these statistics.

Which I haven't bothered to verify, but I tend to look at them with a little suspicion when it is her and the rest of the headline (which you also conveniently left out) reads "another liberal  health-care lie".



That is why I linked the article.  Twit. 

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 222
RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/27/2010 7:09:34 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride

Well, gosh, if you and Nicholas Eberstadt both say neither medical care nor discrimination can explain it, I guess it's just a biiiiiig mystery. As Nick says, huh?

And it can't possibly have anything to do with the closely corresponding numbers on income, right?  Nahhhhh.

And...I notice you've gone quiet on infant mortalities in relation to Canada and Nordic countries (which measure the same way as the US), but one unknowable Eberstadt mystery per post, huh?



The point is that comparing infant mortality rates is not a good indicator of how good a countries medical practices are. 

If you want to compare Canada's and the US, it is still not a completely fair comparison as Canada only counts babies that weigh at least one pound.  Also the difference is 5 out of 1000 and 7 out of 1000.  But this still does not control for the difference in what is considered a "live birth."

Typically infant mortality is caused by low-birth weight or being premature.  Low-birth weight is often caused by teenage births and smoking.  You might just want to check where the US stands on those.  If you control for those lifestyle choices, you might be surprised at where the US stands on their infant mortality rate as compared to other countries. 

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to mcbride)
Profile   Post #: 223
RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/27/2010 10:00:39 PM   
mcbride


Posts: 333
Joined: 1/14/2005
Status: offline 		Oh, good grief.

When births at less than 22 weeks were excluded, says the CDC, the U.S. infant mortality rate dropped from 6.8 to 5.8 infant deaths per 1,000 live births in 2004, still higher than for most European countries.

And, says the CDC, "it appears unlikely that differences in reporting are the primary explanation for the United States’ relatively low international ranking. In 2005, 22 countries had infant mortality rates of 5.0 or below. One would have to assume that these countries did not report more than one-third of their infant deaths for their infant mortality rates to equal or exceed the U.S. rate. "

"The primary reason for the United States’ higher infant mortality rate when compared with Europe is the United States’ much higher percentage of preterm births. These data suggest that preterm birth prevention is crucial to lowering the U.S. infant mortality rate."

If you look at the availability of health care for pregnant women in the US and elsewhere, that has everything to do with health care and income.

As for Canada, you're not quite right. Canada does not "only count babies that weigh at least one pound." Sometimes babies under one pound are counted, but the Public Health Agency of Canada reports that there is a lack of consistency in handling live births weighing less than 500 g for infant mortality calculations.

I'm sure the right wing blogs, like quando.net, have more energetic attempts to spin the numbers, but I'd put a bit more faith in scientific, less biased sources, like the CDC.

You're right about one thing. Infant mortality doesn't have to be the only measure of health care.  There is a long, long list of measurable health outcomes that point to the same inevitable conclusion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

The point is that comparing infant mortality rates is not a good indicator of how good a countries medical practices are. 

If you want to compare Canada's and the US, it is still not a completely fair comparison as Canada only counts babies that weigh at least one pound.  Also the difference is 5 out of 1000 and 7 out of 1000.  But this still does not control for the difference in what is considered a "live birth."

Typically infant mortality is caused by low-birth weight or being premature.  Low-birth weight is often caused by teenage births and smoking.  You might just want to check where the US stands on those.  If you control for those lifestyle choices, you might be surprised at where the US stands on their infant mortality rate as compared to other countries. 

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 224
RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/27/2010 10:47:26 PM   
thornhappy


Posts: 8596
Joined: 12/16/2006
Status: offline 		Last year, a bunch of insurance companies here in Ohio decided that if you were taking something a bit expensive, you had to have your doctor fill out a form justifying it and fax it into the insurance company.  My family doc said he was getting 10-15 of these forms per day.

I only found this out by accident when I went to get a refill and it was denied - I would've had to pay $400 for one drug and $380 for another.  Those are the only 2 brand name medications I take, and there are no less expensive alternatives that work.

My neurologist filled it out and sent it - when I called the insurance company to confirm receipt, they told me "oh, we decided to cover that drug."  So I wasted an hour and a half during a workday, and the office wasted time sending it.

They didn't do the justification thing this year.  Last year's occurence wasn't local to Dayton, docs all over SW Ohio were up in arms.
quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride

• Ninety-five percent of respondents said insurers interfered with decisions about prescriptions, 91 percent with testing, 74 percent with referrals, and 69 percent with hospitalization decisions.


(in reply to mcbride)
Profile   Post #: 225
RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/27/2010 10:57:28 PM   
mcbride


Posts: 333
Joined: 1/14/2005
Status: offline 		Exactly. And all of it is time and money wasted by you and your doctor, and your portion isn't accounted for in the United States' much higher cost of health care. And all so that insurance companies can increase their profits.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

Last year, a bunch of insurance companies here in Ohio decided that if you were taking something a bit expensive, you had to have your doctor fill out a form justifying it and fax it into the insurance company.  My family doc said he was getting 10-15 of these forms per day.

I only found this out by accident when I went to get a refill and it was denied - I would've had to pay $400 for one drug and $380 for another.  Those are the only 2 brand name medications I take, and there are no less expensive alternatives that work.

My neurologist filled it out and sent it - when I called the insurance company to confirm receipt, they told me "oh, we decided to cover that drug."  So I wasted an hour and a half during a workday, and the office wasted time sending it.

They didn't do the justification thing this year.  Last year's occurence wasn't local to Dayton, docs all over SW Ohio were up in arms.
quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride

• Ninety-five percent of respondents said insurers interfered with decisions about prescriptions, 91 percent with testing, 74 percent with referrals, and 69 percent with hospitalization decisions.



(in reply to thornhappy)
Profile   Post #: 226
RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/27/2010 11:41:02 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

  If you control for those lifestyle choices, you might be surprised at where the US stands on their infant mortality rate as compared to other countries. 



...then, as you've been arguing against the premise that the US health care system creates worse outcomes, while costing more and covering fewer people.......you'd be more than capable of supporting your argument with evidence. i'm willing to be surprised if you can actually dig up some proof....as opposed to a thought piece written by a hyper-partisan woman who has been proven wrong on matters of fact in the past.

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 227
RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/28/2010 5:47:38 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Except you left out the part where it is Ann Coulter offering these statistics.

Which I haven't bothered to verify, but I tend to look at them with a little suspicion when it is her and the rest of the headline (which you also conveniently left out) reads "another liberal  health-care lie".



That is why I linked the article.  Twit. 


Well, that was certainly a classy answer.

Thank you.

But let's talk more about Coulter's source, Nicholas Eberstadt.

He is well known for his far-right and fundamentalist Christian views:


Nicholas Eberstadt - Right Web Profile - Political Research

At the American Enterprise Institute, where he is the Henry Wendt Scholar in Political Economy, Eberstadt's research on demography has included the assertion that the U.S. birth rate's lead over Europe's can be attributed to the country's " greater optimism, greater patriotism, and stronger religious values" (Washington Post, May 24, 2006).


Eberstadt spoke at an October 2006 AEI event on "Religion and the American Future." The event's description stated, "The meek, it has been said, shall inherit the earth—but increasingly it appears that the future belongs not so much to the meek as to the devout. As fertility rates plummet across the globe, religious believers seem to be uniquely protected against the 21st century's looming demographic implosion" ("Religion and the American Future").



Nice source, keep up the good work.


< Message edited by rulemylife -- 3/28/2010 6:30:29 AM >

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 228
RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/28/2010 8:03:38 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride

Well, gosh, if you and Nicholas Eberstadt both say neither medical care nor discrimination can explain it, I guess it's just a biiiiiig mystery... And it can't possibly have anything to do with the closely corresponding numbers on income, right?

Well it could, or it might not. If the correspondence with income is across all groups, then you would have to separate the low-income black infant mortality rates from the low-income infant mortality rates for the other groups in order to see if there is a statistically significant difference. We would also have to examine the data for high-income infant mortality rates by group. If they, too, turned out to be significantly higher for some groups, we might well be seeing a difference in infant mortality rates that is to some degree independent of social factors.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/28/2010 8:25:21 AM >

(in reply to mcbride)
Profile   Post #: 229
RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/28/2010 8:04:40 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
And if government takes over, there will magically be a never ending supply of money to ensure that no one has to be reminded to prescribe generic drugs wherever possible. No procedures of any kind will ever be questioned by anyone. In fact, everyone will be absolutely thrilled with the free Obamacare clinics that spring up on every corner once those nasty Republicans get out of the way.

There will be cake and ice cream and balloons, and no one will ever get hurt, and we won't have to work, and we'll all live forever and ever... 



quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride

Exactly. And all of it is time and money wasted by you and your doctor, and your portion isn't accounted for in the United States' much higher cost of health care. And all so that insurance companies can increase their profits.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

Last year, a bunch of insurance companies here in Ohio decided that if you were taking something a bit expensive, you had to have your doctor fill out a form justifying it and fax it into the insurance company.  My family doc said he was getting 10-15 of these forms per day.

I only found this out by accident when I went to get a refill and it was denied - I would've had to pay $400 for one drug and $380 for another.  Those are the only 2 brand name medications I take, and there are no less expensive alternatives that work.

My neurologist filled it out and sent it - when I called the insurance company to confirm receipt, they told me "oh, we decided to cover that drug."  So I wasted an hour and a half during a workday, and the office wasted time sending it.

They didn't do the justification thing this year.  Last year's occurence wasn't local to Dayton, docs all over SW Ohio were up in arms.
quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride

• Ninety-five percent of respondents said insurers interfered with decisions about prescriptions, 91 percent with testing, 74 percent with referrals, and 69 percent with hospitalization decisions.





_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to mcbride)
Profile   Post #: 230
RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/28/2010 9:56:32 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		What mcbride was suggesting was efficiency which you unnecessarily interpreted as him suggesting Utopia. Time to adjust your goggles.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 231
RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/28/2010 10:12:58 AM   
mcbride


Posts: 333
Joined: 1/14/2005
Status: offline 		This doesn't happen often, Sanity, but yes, you're right. If the Republicans would get out of the way, Americans could have the same simple access to decent health care that everyone else has. I don't think it's fair to call them Obamacare clinics, as if he invented the idea, but on this glorious Sunday morning, I could walk to the nearest medi-clinic, about six blocks away, or to the next one, one block further. Whatever send me there, whether it's a sick child or an ingrown toenail or chest pains, I won't have to pay a cent.  I've never seen a medical bill.  And my taxes and health premiums, combined, are less than yours.

It's far from perfect, but it's right here in the real world, and we in Canada had our cake and balloons 40 years ago.

I can't understand why the Americans I care about, and their children, can't have it, but yes, I know who's bravely standing on guard for the insurance companies who might otherwise be kicked off the gravy train.

So, yes, please, see what you can do, and then, you can be a green blobby alien and dance around happily.  I'd clap for you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

And if government takes over, there will magically be a never ending supply of money to ensure that no one has to be reminded to prescribe generic drugs wherever possible. No procedures of any kind will ever be questioned by anyone. In fact, everyone will be absolutely thrilled with the free Obamacare clinics that spring up on every corner once those nasty Republicans get out of the way.

There will be cake and ice cream and balloons, and no one will ever get hurt, and we won't have to work, and we'll all live forever and ever... 



quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride

Exactly. And all of it is time and money wasted by you and your doctor, and your portion isn't accounted for in the United States' much higher cost of health care. And all so that insurance companies can increase their profits.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

Last year, a bunch of insurance companies here in Ohio decided that if you were taking something a bit expensive, you had to have your doctor fill out a form justifying it and fax it into the insurance company.  My family doc said he was getting 10-15 of these forms per day.

I only found this out by accident when I went to get a refill and it was denied - I would've had to pay $400 for one drug and $380 for another.  Those are the only 2 brand name medications I take, and there are no less expensive alternatives that work.

My neurologist filled it out and sent it - when I called the insurance company to confirm receipt, they told me "oh, we decided to cover that drug."  So I wasted an hour and a half during a workday, and the office wasted time sending it.

They didn't do the justification thing this year.  Last year's occurence wasn't local to Dayton, docs all over SW Ohio were up in arms.
quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride

• Ninety-five percent of respondents said insurers interfered with decisions about prescriptions, 91 percent with testing, 74 percent with referrals, and 69 percent with hospitalization decisions.





(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 232
RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/28/2010 5:09:40 PM   
lovedby


Posts: 3
Joined: 2/3/2010
Status: offline 		I don't think one should comment on Canada's health care unless one knows what one is really talking about. Our babies are all immunized, we go to the Dr. anytime and receive care. We go to emergency and receive care. If need be we are put in to hospital. We do not worry about the cost of hospitalization to have babies, or broken arms or operations or simply getting old. Are there mistakes made? sometimes yes and these are publicized. But for every 1 mistake there are hundreds of thousands of us across the country who have care without ever worrying about money. You don't think of our care of compassionate. Well we take care of every single person in our country without placing a monetary value on their life or pain. Call it whatever you want but I will take our health care in Canada where my health or my children's health is not defined by how much money we make. My husband and I make very good wages and we feel absolutely no insult to us that the poorest get the same treatment as we do. Actually we are quite proud of that in our country. There are a few who go to the US when some things take a long time but those cases are a small percentage. The reality is the majority of us spend every single moment relying on our own system and the receive every shot, every x-ray, or Dr.s appointment, every procedure from the moment we are born till our death in our system knowing that it is there for every person. Don't knock it till you understand the reality of the difference.

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Profile   Post #: 233
RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/28/2010 5:30:12 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I don't think one should comment on Canada's health care unless one knows what one is really talking about


domroomiesneeded is Canadian. He had a different point of view, one which most other Canadians didn't agree with.

However, more importantly than that, this is not a thread about health care systems, this is a thread about compassion.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to lovedby)
Profile   Post #: 234
RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/29/2010 9:26:07 AM   
lovedby


Posts: 3
Joined: 2/3/2010
Status: offline 		lady Angelika said However, more importantly than that, this is not a thread about health care systems, this is a thread about compassion.


I would reiterate that a system which does not equate human life with a dollar bill is profoundly more compassionate. And whether or not he is Canadian or not, his point is moot when one considers the enormous benefits compared with the very small statistic of problems. Yes Canadians would be against his thoughts because rationally we see the immeasurable benefits especially those of us with children who know that their basic health care is a given (which by the way is smack full of compassion since you want us to use that word) as opposed to what we see in the US. I have yet to meet a Canadian (except for the rich) that would rather have that mess than our own system. Are ther mistakes made?...yes. are there flaws?...but even with that in mind...it is far better to catch andf fix mistakes and continue to benefit every person as much as possible than to say this isn't working for everyone so no one should have anything. Compassion allows for every person to have value.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 235
RE: Where is the compassion? - 3/29/2010 3:59:34 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Compassion allows for every person to have value.


Very well said.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to lovedby)
Profile   Post #: 236
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