Thadius
Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
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ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
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ORIGINAL: Thadius
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ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
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ORIGINAL: countrychick
The United States of America is the only first world developed country without a universal health care system for its people and yet people don't want this? I'm just totally confused as to why people think it is not appropriate for a country to provide any and all citizens with the right to health care.
Sure I hear about increased taxes and the costs to the system, but aren't the lives of human beings worth more than a few percentage points of one's income? And if the rest of the developed world can do it, without bankrupting itself, why can't the USA? Just curious...
Too many Americans are greedy, heartless, self-centered idiots who think that poverty or bad luck are character flaws that deserve to be punished by god.
Very nice.
As one of the "greedy, heartless, self-centered idiots" that opposed this legislation for a whole slew of reasons, none of which relate to your obvious hyperbole.
Then perhaps you're not one of the people to whom I was referring....
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ORIGINAL: Thadius
I wonder if you have even considered that there would be better ways of getting the coverage, portability, and choice that we as Americans deserve?
Yes. But I have yet to hear of one. If you know of a viable alternative that nobody else has mentioned in the last year, I'm all ears. Please be forewarned that anything involving tort reform or selling insurance across state lines will be torn to shreds as soon as I'm finished laughing.
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ORIGINAL: Thadius
Have you ever considered that some of us might want the programs we have on the books now (that we can't afford) to be fixed and made solvent before 150+ new offices and agencies are thrown on top of them?
How many tens - how many hundreds of thousands of people - need to die from lack of proper health care while we dick around trying to solve those problems? Have you got a number in mind for how many people you're willing to let die while you wait for this perfect world to emerge?
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ORIGINAL: Thadius
Maybe some of us still prefer to have as little government intrusion into our lives as possible. None of those things have anything to do with not having compassion for our fellow citizen or those that truly need a helping hand.
I would argue that they have a hell of a lot to do with not having compassion for other people in your community.
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ORIGINAL: Thadius
Simply put this bill treats the symptoms and does next to nothing for the underlying disease.
That, I agree with. Its greatest value is as a starting point. What it does is get us moving in the right direction, away from the current model that is clearly completely, irreparably dysfunctional.
There is no perfect solution to the health care crisis, but the best available basic model is single-payer, universal care, as practiced by almost every other country on the planet. The only rational direction for us to go is toward that model, and we needed this deeply flawed bill to start moving in that direction. This bill is by no means the best we can do, but it's the best we can do right now. So here's where we start, and we go forward from here.
Let's use World War II as an analogy. The invasion of Normandy did not end World War II, but we could not have won the war if we hadn't invaded Normandy. We needed to invade France in order to put ourselves in a position to take Berlin. This bill is our Normandy. It's ugly, it's messy, it's bloody, it's chaotic, and it's controversial and risky as hell. But if we don't bite the bullet and put ourselves through it we'll never put ourselves in a position to get where we need to go in order to win the war.
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ORIGINAL: Thadius
Too, because of the way this bill was scrapped together, bent, and filled up, it is very likely not going to be able to stand up to Constitutional scrutiny.
Then you have nothing to worry about. But don't hold your breath, because very few people outside the right wing fringe groups seriously believe there's any merit to that argument.
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ORIGINAL: Thadius
The mandates, special deals for particular states and classes of people will surely bring about a SCOTUS rebuke, as the reconcilliation bill (which contains the fixes) has no chance of being legally passed in the Senate.
Why not?
To answer your last question first, it is not a valid bill to be considered under reconcilliation for a number of reasons but the biggest disqualifier is that it contains language that makes changes to some Social Security funds.
To the constitutionality remarks... I am glad you think it is only right wingers that think it won't pass muster, even if that is true, I remember reading some words around here about the SCOTUS being a puppet of the right wing anyways. Still so confident? Ah, then let's go a bit deeper into the matter. Considering that the reconcilliation bill at best is going to get the revenue portions passed the Senate, that leaves the underlying Senate bill, which still contains the mandates on individuals. Why do you think there was never a mandate for all citizens to buy war bonds, or any other nationally important commodity? I am curious at to when the commerce clause gave the power to congress to regulate non participation of individuals, or to force the purchase of a privately sold and heavily regulated commodity? Beyond this, we step into the special deals for particular classes of people (unions and government employees), special treatment of citizens of particular states for reasons other than natural disaster or Native American relations. Then add in the unfunded mandates imposed on the states. Of course it is only the fringe that believes this bill won't pass muster. As of this writing I know of 19 states that simply waiting for the President to sign the underlying bill into law.
Since you and others have already decided that Universal Health Care is the way to go, what plans do you have for the displaced workers of all of these evil greedy corporations? Nevermind, I forgot that they can collect unemployment while they retrain and head back to school with the included addons.
I didn't realize I needed the government to help me show compassion for my fellow citizens. Heck, that will make things much easier, I can just write a check to Uncle Sam and let him volunteer some time, food, clothes, an ear and a shoulder to those that need it around these parts. That will definitely free up some time to sit back and relax. Thank you for the insight.
The sooner you realize that folks like me are not the enemy, the sooner we can get this country moving in the right direction. With listing the things we can agree upon, so much more can and will get accomplished while we work on the details of those things we don't agree on.
So much for the post-partisan, post-racial, new age of hope.
The audacity.
_____________________________
When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb
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RE: Health care passes - 
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