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RE: Health care passes - 3/22/2010 7:51:03 AM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

You have described the fabric of the States quite well. We have made great advances in the racial issue overtime considering the racial disparity was enshrined in our Constitution by the Founders as compromise; a war was fought over it (under the guise of States' Rights); and Reconstruction was abandoned to win an election. For some, the issue remains quite healthy today as they are confounded by a a Black man in the Presidency.



While I do realize that genuine racism is a problem, the point I was getting at was less about race (skintone) and more about culture. Different cultures (often found in different geographic locations) have vastly different ideas about how the US should be run. About what government has a responsibility to pay for. About what government has a right to ban. About whether marijuana should be legal, about whether gays should be married, about whether guns and abortions should be legal, about when if ever war is justified... this issue is nothing new and it's why we have people talking about "left wing commies" and "religious right fanatics" when people fail to realize that within the context of their constituency the "commies" and "fanatics" actually represent the majority opinion.

Like I said before, I don't know if this problem can be solved, but I do know that so long as people with different values are portrayed as either "holding America back" or "running America into the ground" the chance of genuine progress based in compromise is slim.

ETA: And as a side note, this is why I support the "States Rights Argument" because anyone who tells me that the people of California and the people of Alabama want the exact same thing is delusional, and part of the reason why we have such extreme partisanship is because of this fact.

< Message edited by Elisabella -- 3/22/2010 7:55:07 AM >

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 161
RE: Health care passes - 3/22/2010 7:51:42 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

The States' Rights argument lives on.


Damned right it does. Not that this is the only Constitutional ground from which to attack this bill.

'Ummm, the issue of Nullification was settled by Andrew Jackson. Look it up."

The bill as passed has an opt-out. Look it up.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: Health care passes - 3/22/2010 7:52:24 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cuckoldmepls

Although healthcare is not a luxury, if you are healthy enough to work and have a job, you are not entitled to free health care.


Healthcare is not a luxury; it is a human right. And what if you are not healthy enough to work? Well, too bad then? Nutty argument I think.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to cuckoldmepls)
Profile   Post #: 163
RE: Health care passes - 3/22/2010 7:53:08 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline
quote:

Leptospirosis - a disease which could potentially kill me. I didn't have insurance at the time, as the place didn't offer it. The doctor told the other employees to see their doctor and get pre-emptive meds, which they all did, as they had husbands with insurance.


On an aside -- This makes no sense to me. You should have seen a lawyer or at the very least filed a worker's comp claim. If your employer stated in the handbook you MUST do this and pay for it on your own to work there and you didn't -- the vet should have fired you. However, if the employer didn't specifically state this is a MUST to work there -- you should be able to receive worker's compensation for as long as you have the disease. Unless its a requirement to work there, the company is responsible for any injury you receive while working. Just because you did not get the preemptive treatment, he is still liable for your contracting same if he allowed you to work there knowing you didn't have the preemptive treatment.

However, i would believe you would have had an obligation to inform your employer you were unable to get the preemptive treatment due to lack of insurance. If you didn't, then there may be comparative fault. But it doesn't sound like it was a requirement as he should have requested proof.


Anyway, sorry for the sidetrack, i saw this and it doesn't make sense with worker comp laws etc. I woud still if you have the disease check with a worker comp lawyer to see if you can salvage any part of a claim due to your contracting same at work.

angel

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to cuckoldmepls)
Profile   Post #: 164
RE: Health care passes - 3/22/2010 7:54:21 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

You might at least learn the proper spelling of the word before you try to apply its definition.


Too funny. You are dismissed.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Health care passes - 3/22/2010 7:55:44 AM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

You might at least learn the proper spelling of the word before you try to apply its definition.


Too funny. You are dismissed.


...

its - possessive form if "it"

it's - contraction of "it is"

Sorry but...yeah.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Health care passes - 3/22/2010 7:56:38 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Like I said before, I don't know if this problem can be solved, but I do know that so long as people with different values are portrayed as either "holding America back" or "running America into the ground" the chance of genuine progress based in compromise is slim.


We may yet succeed in tearing ourselves apart. Again.

As I explained earlier in another thread, this is part of my thinking about the SCOTUS review of the Chicago gun ban, and why I would support repeal of the 14th Amendment.

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 167
RE: Health care passes - 3/22/2010 7:57:00 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

its - possessive form if "it"

it's - contraction of "it is"

Sorry but...yeah.


Seriously .



_____________________________



(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Health care passes - 3/22/2010 7:58:22 AM   
agnes26


Posts: 6
Joined: 3/22/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

quote:

Leptospirosis - a disease which could potentially kill me. I didn't have insurance at the time, as the place didn't offer it. The doctor told the other employees to see their doctor and get pre-emptive meds, which they all did, as they had husbands with insurance.


On an aside -- This makes no sense to me. You should have seen a lawyer or at the very least filed a worker's comp claim. If your employer stated in the handbook you MUST do this and pay for it on your own to work there and you didn't -- the vet should have fired you. However, if the employer didn't specifically state this is a MUST to work there -- you should be able to receive worker's compensation for as long as you have the disease. Unless its a requirement to work there, the company is responsible for any injury you receive while working. Just because you did not get the preemptive treatment, he is still liable for your contracting same if he allowed you to work there knowing you didn't have the preemptive treatment.

However, i would believe you would have had an obligation to inform your employer you were unable to get the preemptive treatment due to lack of insurance. If you didn't, then there may be comparative fault. But it doesn't sound like it was a requirement as he should have requested proof.


Anyway, sorry for the sidetrack, i saw this and it doesn't make sense with worker comp laws etc. I woud still if you have the disease check with a worker comp lawyer to see if you can salvage any part of a claim due to your contracting same at work.

angel


Well I didn't come down with Lepto and to be honest, it never occured to me at the time to hold the vet responsible for paying for pre-emptive treatment. I doubt he would have, as he said pretty much "Eh - the chances are small, you'll be fine, but you should see your doctor anyway."

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Health care passes - 3/22/2010 7:59:54 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

So, the dems who voted no, did so because they opposed it's basic principles and it wasn't liberal enough. The repubs who voted no, did so because they lack honor and integrity.



I think the issue is that not one Republican voted in favor.

Even Geraldo last night on Fox commented on how amazed he was at the partisanship.

(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Health care passes - 3/22/2010 8:00:12 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

You might at least learn the proper spelling of the word before you try to apply its definition.


Too funny. You are dismissed.


...

its - possessive form if "it"

it's - contraction of "it is"

Sorry but...yeah.

My bad. (No its', uh?)

The spelling shot was still petty.

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: Health care passes - 3/22/2010 8:00:23 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

You have described the fabric of the States quite well. We have made great advances in the racial issue overtime considering the racial disparity was enshrined in our Constitution by the Founders as compromise; a war was fought over it (under the guise of States' Rights); and Reconstruction was abandoned to win an election. For some, the issue remains quite healthy today as they are confounded by a a Black man in the Presidency.



While I do realize that genuine racism is a problem, the point I was getting at was less about race (skintone) and more about culture. Different cultures (often found in different geographic locations) have vastly different ideas about how the US should be run. About what government has a responsibility to pay for. About what government has a right to ban. About whether marijuana should be legal, about whether gays should be married, about whether guns should be legal, this issue is nothing new and it's why we have people talking about "left wing commies" and "religious right fanatics" when people fail to realize that within the context of their constituency the "commies" and "fanatics" actually represent the majority opinion.

Like I said before, I don't know if this problem can be solved, but I do know that so long as people with different values are portrayed as either "holding America back" or "running America into the ground" the chance of genuine progress based in compromise is slim.

ETA: And as a side note, this is why I support the "States Rights Argument" because anyone who tells me that the people of California and the people of Alabama want the exact same thing is delusional, and part of the reason why we have such extreme partisanship is because of this fact.


I understand you are talking about cultures. Stealthly, however, the disparate cultures have been spreading thoughout the geographic locales. It is the resistence and confrontation to this migration of cultures that creates alarm and the "us vs them" reaction. The Cultural Nativists are insecure. Nor does it help that we are in economic hard times and that many manufacturing jobs have fled our national borders. So the Nativists are in that respect somewhat justified in their fear of competition from the "others."

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 172
RE: Health care passes - 3/22/2010 8:02:32 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		Actually, the resistance was fairly bipartisan.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: Health care passes - 3/22/2010 8:03:06 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Interesting Op-ed piece in the N.Y.Times(I know,its a socialist rag...lol) by Paul Krugman,since I suck at providing links I hope another,more qualified poster will come along and provide it....anyway in his piece he used two quotes to illustrate the difference in viewpoints between the parties....He quoted President Obama in a talk to House Dems on Sat..."Every once in awhile a moment comes where you have a chance to vindicate all those best hopes that you had about yourself,about this country,where you have the chance to make good on those promises you made....And this is the time to make true on that promise.We are not bound to win,but we are bound to be true,we are not bound to succeed,but we are bound to let whatever light we have shine."
Now compare that with a quote from Newt Gingrich...a man whose politics I personally detest,but he writes good fiction...lol.
Here's what he had to say concerning what would happen if Democrats pass this bill...."They will have destroyed their party much as Lyndon Johnson shattered the Democratic Party for 40 years" by passing civil rights legislation.
Now whether or not you agree that the Democrats did in fact damage their brand by passing that historic piece of legislation....I'm left to wonder,who in the year 2010 can look at the Civil Rights act as anything but a shining example of historic legislation?....who but Newt and some other Republicans can actually look back at that and see the political cost rather than the great stride forward that legislation represented for this country?
It baffles me that on one side a political equation is the supposed driving force and on the other ,as Krugman writes ,an appeal to the better angels of our nature is the message.
Whose side would you think history will be on?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to cuckoldmepls)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Health care passes - 3/22/2010 8:04:00 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline 		Agreed about the spelling shot.

But some are two quick to decry a new socialism without providing definition and explicit concern. They throw the word out so losely one wonders just what they mean by it and why they are frightened, considering we have had social legislation since the 1930s and capitalism has survived.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 175
RE: Health care passes - 3/22/2010 8:05:54 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: cuckoldmepls

Although healthcare is not a luxury, if you are healthy enough to work and have a job, you are not entitled to free health care.
Forgive me for asking...but considering the source,did you expect anything less?

Healthcare is not a luxury; it is a human right. And what if you are not healthy enough to work? Well, too bad then? Nutty argument I think.


_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 176
RE: Health care passes - 3/22/2010 8:13:50 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks.

I'm a capitalist who thinks automation and simple economies of scale will render capitalism (and maybe even the concept of money) obsolete. Sooner or later, I think we're heading into an era more transformative than the industrial revolution; and I suspect it's sooner. ("it's", right? lol)

That said, we can't afford this bill; and there's probably no requirement to go bankrupt as part of the coming change.

30% of doctors threatened to quit or retire early if this passed. If half of them were serious....

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: Health care passes - 3/22/2010 8:22:11 AM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Thanks.

I'm a capitalist who thinks automation and simple economies of scale will render capitalism (and maybe even the concept of money) obsolete. Sooner or later, I think we're heading into an era more transformative than the industrial revolution; and I suspect it's sooner. ("it's", right? lol)


Yes it's it's

I don't know about money being obsolete (I've never encountered this line of thought) but I do know one thing - status will never be obsolete. Seeking status seems to be an inherent part of the human condition, the only thing that changes is what defines "high" and "low" status.

quote:


30% of doctors threatened to quit or retire early if this passed. If half of them were serious....


A fair point, looking at immigration requirements for many countries with socialized medicine, trained and licensed doctors get a skip ahead of the line because there does tend to be a shortage when the years and cost of medical school doesn't lead to a proportional benefit.

Then again, there are a lot of Indian and African doctors in the US who currently work as cab drivers to save up the money to take the necessary classes and tests that will allow them to be certified in the US as well as in their home country, and a shortage of doctors might help ease that transition for otherwise qualified people.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: Health care passes - 3/22/2010 8:26:24 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

homeowner's associations that are the epitome of socialism.


Ever heard of the word "voluntary"? The phrase "freedom of association"?


Except the poster I was responding to has apparently "volunteered" to live in one of those socialist communities while telling us how much he despises socialism.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Health care passes - 3/22/2010 8:30:53 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

homeowner's associations that are the epitome of socialism.


Ever heard of the word "voluntary"? The phrase "freedom of association"?


Except the poster I was responding to has apparently "volunteered" to live in one of those socialist communities while telling us how much he despises socialism.



You made my point for me.

I am free to buy a condo governed by a homeowner's association, and might volunteer to do some day.
But I abhor government socialism.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 180
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