RE: Why do we get all uppity about Weight based Threads? (Full Version)

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Lucienne -> RE: Why do we get all uppity about Weight based Threads? (3/24/2010 7:44:07 AM)

I think the fundamental mistake and the source of much bias is the assumption that fat equals lazy and undisciplined across the board, not just in terms of health maintenance.  The problem isn't just that there are multiple causes for being fat, it's that even if a person is fat because they're too lazy to do anything about it doesn't mean they have the same attitude towards everything else in their life. The overwhelming majority of us have things we are lazy about- parts of ourselves we could improve if we put in the time and effort. Imagine how strange it would be if we could flip a cultural switch and every American who hasn't bothered to learn to speak Spanish was suddenly deemed inexcusably lazy and undisciplined, mocked in the streets, discriminated against in jobs that don't even require speaking Spanish. And don't get distracted thinking "obesity is a major health concern, budget buster, etc." The point is that a failure to fully command one area of your life doesn't mean you can't and don't demonstrate that command in other areas.



Andalusite -> RE: Why do we get all uppity about Weight based Threads? (3/24/2010 8:35:25 AM)

smutmonger, I tend to have the opposite problem - losing weight too easily without eating noticeably less or exercising more, if I'm stressed out, and in hot weather, I can barely eat anything. It's easy for me to lose 1/2 pound a day without any effort at all. That doesn't mean that all you and everyone else who is overweight has to do is be in 95 degree weather in order to lose at that rate. [;)]
tazzy, I agree that there's no one-size-fits-all diet, but the kreb cycle can still proceed in a very low-carb diet, using triglycerides and proteins rather than glucose. This puts the body into ketosis. There is some controversy over whether or not this can cause problems with the brain and other body processes: http://www.mombu.com/medicine/heart/t-gary-taubes-about-ketosis-3615399.html

Wyld, some people make those kind of remarks no matter *what* their target weighs. I've actually had a group of women argue back and forth with each other about whether I was too fat or too skinny, with all of them being pretty nasty about it, and have had similar remarks from a lot of other people. I'm a size 5, and my BMI has never been above the "normal" range.

Lucienne, I agree - and for that matter, there are plenty of people who are lazy and undisciplined, and even who have very poor eating and exercise habits, who are skinny as a rail. Usually it catches up to them once they get into middle-age, and their metabolism starts slowing down a bit.





Smutmonger -> RE: Why do we get all uppity about Weight based Threads? (3/24/2010 8:43:50 AM)

All I have ever had to do is cut down on sugar and carbs to lose wieght,and a bit more excercise. I only get fat when I eat poorly and sit on my duff.

I see this same pattern in other people who put on wieght-so I tend not to have a lot of sympathy for folks who choose to do nothing but whine about it. Like I mentioned-and others have.....ACTUAL percentages of people who have metabolic issues are very low.

It's pretty crappy to try to  ride on the coat tails of misfortune to justify having bad habits.



Aynne88 -> RE: Why do we get all uppity about Weight based Threads? (3/24/2010 8:54:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanguinarian

I wouldn't consider myself lazy. I work out every other day, regardless of pain or not, because the stretching prior and after a workout helps. The warming of my muscles during the workout, helps. I don't eat junk or drink soda because I don't want my kids to learn bad eating habits.

Now aside from that, due to the nature of the cause of my chronic pain, I can't do a lot of walking, so I park near the entry to the grocery store when I get household stuff, but I lean against a cart when I walk, inside. I can't lift weights, but I would say having to lift my sons qualifies. I have self control and will power ( snorts at the jackasses and wonders just what their insecurities are: perhaps having larger females makes them feel unmanly and makes their already small dicks look smaller? You know I had to say it, you brought it on yourself.)

And granted, there are a lot of fat bastards out there who have no desire to take the initiative. But, if they are happy being a fat bastard, let them be a fat bastard. ( Check the immortal words of Foamy people. ) And if someone is a skinny twit with a thyroid problem, go ahead, be a twig!  Aaaannnnnd if you want to be a shallow idiot... nuff said.

And Darling Savage? This is where those statistics might help you. People do not 'usually' get anything like diabetes from obesity by eating junk food. Junk food is not a sole factor. There are many things that make the body insulin resistant.



My Man has type 11 diabetes. Since we have been together for almost a year, he has lost 45 pounds, been taken off of most of his medications and looks and feels fantastic. His internist absolutely will state that his diabetes was a cause of a lifetime of poor eating habits and being overweight. He used to claim that he controlled his diet, watched what he ate, etc., we have been friends for 20 years, so until we became a couple I didn't know whether or not to believe him. Well, after being together, I saw it differently. Rice, white bread, chips, processed junk....I threw it all away and now I control his meals and it really was the simple. Garbage in garbage out. Most people with Type 2 diabetes would benefit immensely by losing weight and meeting with a nutritionist. John has 15 more pounds to go and his doctor feels that he will no longer need to be on any meds if he continues in this vein. He also goes to the gym with me 3 times a week. I don't care what people say, I am not thin naturally or easily, but I do make the right food choices and exercise. Willpower and getting out of denial go a long way. Also, learn to cook. Healthy can be delicious. I just have a hard time believing that all these people are overweight from thyroid conditions and medications. It doesn't add up.



LaTigresse -> RE: Why do we get all uppity about Weight based Threads? (3/24/2010 8:58:07 AM)

It is far easier to blame a condition than oneself.



DarlingSavage -> RE: Why do we get all uppity about Weight based Threads? (3/24/2010 9:01:06 AM)

quote:

I am wondering, DarlingSavage, where in my response do you see any kind of personal attack?
I simply offered a differing point of view.

Re: obesity being the cause of diabetes, studies in the last 3 years have suggested otherwise:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/11/071106133106.htm

Inflammation has a strong connection to heart disease and stroke as well.
American Heart Association
Also: http://www.clevelandclinic.org/heartcenter/pub/news/hot/inflammation8_02.asp?firstCat=1&secondCat=429&thirdCat=524

Since it has come up several times in this thread...the issue of why some people over-eat and others do not, is much more complicated than the simplistic idea that over-weight people simply lack will-power.
Much of the cues for satiety are within our brain chemistry and for some people there are other less understood factors that create a mind/body disconnect which manifest themselves in someone eating when they are not hungry.


From the very first paragraph in the article in ScienceDaily:
Their discovery may pave the way to novel drug development to fight the epidemic of Type 2 diabetes associated with obesity, the most prevalent metabolic disease worldwide.

Have you read this entire article?

It states that:
Macrophages, found in white blood cells in the bone marrow, are key players in the immune response. When these immune cells get into tissues, such as adipose (fat) or liver tissue, they release cytokines, which are chemical messenger molecules used by immune and nerve cells to communicate. These cytokines cause the neighboring liver, muscle or fat cells to become insulin resistant, which in turn can lead to Type 2 diabetes.

It says right here that there is a series of events that occur which lead up to type 2 diabetes. The fat itself does not cause type 2 diabetes, however, it leads up to it. The only way that people aren't going to get type 2 through obesity is if they don't have any macrophage production. This is a study for a development of a new drug that will suppress macrophage production in obese people.

The article quotes:
"If we can block or disarm this macrophage inflammatory pathway in humans, we could interrupt the cascade that leads to insulin resistance and diabetes," said Olefsky. "A small molecule compound to block JNK1 could prove a potent insulin-sensitizing, anti-diabetic agent."

The research also proved that obesity without inflammation does not result in insulin resistance. Olefsky explained that when an animal or a human being becomes obese, they develop steatosis, or increased fat in the liver. The steatosis leads to liver inflammation and hepatic insulin resistance.

They conclude:
"We aren't suggesting that obesity is healthy, but indications are promising that, by blocking the macrophage pathway, scientists may find a way to prevent the Type 2 diabetes now linked to obesity and fatty livers," Olefsky said.

In other words, you won't get type 2 diabetes from obesity if you don't produce macrophages, if we can stop your body from doing what it normally does as a result of being obese, then we can stop you from getting this disease. But what will happen to the person if their body isn't able to function normally? Inflammation is your body's response to injury, it's your body's way of protecting itself from infection. This wouldn't be occuring if something else wasn't already wrong. That's what they'll have to look at next. They need to see what the long term results will be of stopping this process. This hasn't even been done with human beings, either. Mice were the test subjects.

Furthermore, these aren't "studies" this is A study done 3 years ago. Subsequent studies done through this vein might totally disprove what these people have put forth. However, their proposal is to give people medicine to disrupt the macrophage pathway. Do you know what macrophages are?

I'd like to address the other 2 articles but I can't do so at this time. However, from a very cursory glance, these articles in no way try to suggest that heart disease and stroke cannot be the result of poor lifestyle choices. These articles appear to merely be describing some of the series of events that occur leading up to heart disease and stroke.

I'll be happy to look at these later, but for now, I have to go.



DarlingSavage -> RE: Why do we get all uppity about Weight based Threads? (3/24/2010 9:04:31 AM)

quote:

My Man has type 11 diabetes. Since we have been together for almost a year, he has lost 45 pounds, been taken off of most of his medications and looks and feels fantastic. His internist absolutely will state that his diabetes was a cause of a lifetime of poor eating habits and being overweight. He used to claim that he controlled his diet, watched what he ate, etc., we have been friends for 20 years, so until we became a couple I didn't know whether or not to believe him. Well, after being together, I saw it differently. Rice, white bread, chips, processed junk....I threw it all away and now I control his meals and it really was the simple. Garbage in garbage out. Most people with Type 2 diabetes would benefit immensely by losing weight and meeting with a nutritionist. John has 15 more pounds to go and his doctor feels that he will no longer need to be on any meds if he continues in this vein. He also goes to the gym with me 3 times a week. I don't care what people say, I am not thin naturally or easily, but I do make the right food choices and exercise. Willpower and getting out of denial go a long way. Also, learn to cook. Healthy can be delicious. I just have a hard time believing that all these people are overweight from thyroid conditions and medications. It doesn't add up.


My point exactly, thank you.



Missokyst -> RE: Why do we get all uppity about Weight based Threads? (3/24/2010 9:07:33 AM)

:)
Fat threads usually go the way of the crap pile because people are so wrapped up in what they feel is acceptable that they must rag on those who do not share their view. Happens on both ends of the scale. Equating everything to health is BS. "Oh, I don't like him/her because he/she is fat and must be unhealthy, stupid, lazy, ect" In reality it is more like "I don't want to lay him/her so their very presence around me is a waste of time.
What we need are many sets of blinders.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanguinarian

People are the issue, plain and simple. Mind your own fucking business. If you like overweight people, feel free to eat a brisket out of their navel. If you don't like overweight people, don't fucking look at them!




Aynne88 -> RE: Why do we get all uppity about Weight based Threads? (3/24/2010 9:10:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

It is far easier to blame a condition than oneself.


I see that LaT. I am far from skinny, I am in the 140's and 5'8" and if I didn't watch what I put into my mouth as a grown woman and made myself either work out or do a fun activity, I would gain 10 no problem. It is easier to do exactly what you said. {Probably not a popular opinion, but hey I'm not running for prom queen ;) 



Missokyst -> RE: Why do we get all uppity about Weight based Threads? (3/24/2010 9:12:43 AM)

Just an observation but diabetes has gone up in our country. And oddly enough skinny people can have health problems as well. I have a very good friend who is thin (not too thin), wiry, and quick... yet she suffers from low blood pressure and can drop quickly without much warning. And last year one a nice man of 35, in top condition died of a heart attack. I always knew jogging would get him....
As for people with thyroid, who knows what the stats are on that? That requires a test ... who has the kind of insurance that is going to pay for a test on something that is undefined until the issue is so far gone that it might be noticible.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarlingSavage

quote:

My Man has type 11 diabetes. Since we have been together for almost a year, he has lost 45 pounds, been taken off of most of his medications and looks and feels fantastic. His internist absolutely will state that his diabetes was a cause of a lifetime of poor eating habits and being overweight. He used to claim that he controlled his diet, watched what he ate, etc., we have been friends for 20 years, so until we became a couple I didn't know whether or not to believe him. Well, after being together, I saw it differently. Rice, white bread, chips, processed junk....I threw it all away and now I control his meals and it really was the simple. Garbage in garbage out. Most people with Type 2 diabetes would benefit immensely by losing weight and meeting with a nutritionist. John has 15 more pounds to go and his doctor feels that he will no longer need to be on any meds if he continues in this vein. He also goes to the gym with me 3 times a week. I don't care what people say, I am not thin naturally or easily, but I do make the right food choices and exercise. Willpower and getting out of denial go a long way. Also, learn to cook. Healthy can be delicious. I just have a hard time believing that all these people are overweight from thyroid conditions and medications. It doesn't add up.


My point exactly, thank you.




LaTigresse -> RE: Why do we get all uppity about Weight based Threads? (3/24/2010 9:22:53 AM)

A link to an interesting study.......again, something we do not wish to acknowledge because it involves denying ourselves and action.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100323/ap_on_he_me/us_med_middle_aged_spread



Aynne88 -> RE: Why do we get all uppity about Weight based Threads? (3/24/2010 9:23:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarlingSavage

quote:

My Man has type 11 diabetes. Since we have been together for almost a year, he has lost 45 pounds, been taken off of most of his medications and looks and feels fantastic. His internist absolutely will state that his diabetes was a cause of a lifetime of poor eating habits and being overweight. He used to claim that he controlled his diet, watched what he ate, etc., we have been friends for 20 years, so until we became a couple I didn't know whether or not to believe him. Well, after being together, I saw it differently. Rice, white bread, chips, processed junk....I threw it all away and now I control his meals and it really was the simple. Garbage in garbage out. Most people with Type 2 diabetes would benefit immensely by losing weight and meeting with a nutritionist. John has 15 more pounds to go and his doctor feels that he will no longer need to be on any meds if he continues in this vein. He also goes to the gym with me 3 times a week. I don't care what people say, I am not thin naturally or easily, but I do make the right food choices and exercise. Willpower and getting out of denial go a long way. Also, learn to cook. Healthy can be delicious. I just have a hard time believing that all these people are overweight from thyroid conditions and medications. It doesn't add up.


My point exactly, thank you.


You are most welcome. I have been reading your posts and I don't see anything insulting or even factually incorrect. I appreciate your well informed links as well as being with a diabetic is new to me and he is proof positive that being over weight can contribute greatly to being diabetic and losing weight and eating right can actually turn it around. He is 58 years old and believe me it wasn't easy to get a guy that loves bacon to love salmon and sauteed spinach, but now he actually requests those things and loves them. One more added bonus, the sex is incredible again. No more tired from being overweight and unhealthy. God the man exhausts me, between torture and sex, I am not kidding. He is like a 30 year old again. I am *not* complaining. [;)].When you feel great and look great, your energy levels go through the roof. We went to the Boston Seafood show two weeks ago and I took him to an upscale men's shop and he bought two new tailored suits and honestly it brought me to tears to see this tall handsome man look so fucking proud of how he looked and felt. That night he thanked me for being so very unsublike in regards to taking care of him. Then he said not to get too used to that, lol.  It is so much more than just "being skinny". He won't ever be skinny, but he is now fit, and healthier than he has ever been, I love him to death, and he is 16 years older than me, I want him to be around forever. It's not fair to be selfish and love someone and be unhealthy by choice and have your partner worried about you all the time. I told him before I got into this too deep that if he was serious then I would love to be his, but his health and the kitchen are my domain and if he didn't at least try, that I couldn't do it. I don't want to love someone with all of my heart that doesn't love themselves enough to get healthy for me. Sorry for rambling, but it's something that is really important to me, and he has worked so hard and the payoff is a new life. Worth it, isn't it? [:)].    



DarlingSavage -> RE: Why do we get all uppity about Weight based Threads? (3/24/2010 9:38:22 AM)

quote:

Sorry for rambling, but it's something that is really important to me, and he has worked so hard and the payoff is a new life. Worth it, isn't it? .


You are NOT rambling! That is wonderful! I'm SO very happy for you! My heart is swelling for you, too. I hope that I'm as lucky. Thank you so much. Now, I really have to go, I wish I could say more, but I have to be somewhere, just had a couple more minutes before the bus. ttyl!

MUAH!



Aynne88 -> RE: Why do we get all uppity about Weight based Threads? (3/24/2010 10:57:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarlingSavage

quote:

Sorry for rambling, but it's something that is really important to me, and he has worked so hard and the payoff is a new life. Worth it, isn't it? .


You are NOT rambling! That is wonderful! I'm SO very happy for you! My heart is swelling for you, too. I hope that I'm as lucky. Thank you so much. Now, I really have to go, I wish I could say more, but I have to be somewhere, just had a couple more minutes before the bus. ttyl!

MUAH!


You are beautiful funny smart and hot, you will be just as lucky! Have fun, and thanks for the dialogue. Muah back at you!



lusciouslips19 -> RE: Why do we get all uppity about Weight based Threads? (3/24/2010 11:05:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smutmonger

All I have to do is to reduce carb intake and excercise more. I lost 30 pounds three years ago by doing this, I can do it again. And will.

Knowing this,I have little sympathy for people who CHOOSE not to follow suit.


Thats a pretty symplistic view. There are other factors that go into it. Like eating instead of smoking when one is trying to quit. OR stress factors, lack of sleep. There are also people I know that have no thyriod and gained weight because they had it removed. Or medication that leads to weight gain like steriods for infections during chemo.

Its very insulting to have that arrogant attitude. But I do consider the source.



LaTigresse -> RE: Why do we get all uppity about Weight based Threads? (3/24/2010 11:23:39 AM)

Lushy there are many reasons some, a very few, people cannot lose weight. However MOST, as in a greater percentage of people can.

I look at it this way from my own fat ass........to use the excuses MOST people use, in the faces of those that have managed to work very hard, deny themselves calories their bodies did not need, get their asses up off their sofas from in front of their favourite programmes..............is also a form of arrogance.

I can whine about a slowing metabolism, middle age spread............being thin most of my life until 10ish years ago..........all I want. The truth, the FACTS say.......I AM THE ONLY ONE RESPONSIBLE!

MOST people are the same.



lusciouslips19 -> RE: Why do we get all uppity about Weight based Threads? (3/24/2010 11:34:45 AM)

Yes, LAT, most are, but not all. I just think of how bad it makes those feel who really cant help it. To call everyone fat and lazy when some are doing their best is a bit rough.

Its still simplistic though. I gained back lost weight because I did it. I used food to calm myself, quit smoking , stay awake and deal with stress and depression. Also, bad food is cheaper when you are broke. I did it myself but i do not regret what I did to deal with my life.Getting fat can be better than another alternative.



LaTigresse -> RE: Why do we get all uppity about Weight based Threads? (3/24/2010 11:45:57 AM)

I understand what you are saying. My point is that your best, is not my best, is not someone else's best.

We can only measure by our own experience. If someone comes on here spouting about their experience, their best, their success, chances our they are not going to comprehend my lack of success as being my best. Because to them, my best would have been failure to them. If that makes sense.

Hell, 3 years ago what was my best, is failure to me now. I will see anything that resembles where I was 3 years ago, not as best, but as failure. Because to me now, it is. It is hard for me to understand the head space I was in, how I allowed myself to exist like that, make the excuses I did.



lusciouslips19 -> RE: Why do we get all uppity about Weight based Threads? (3/24/2010 12:03:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I understand what you are saying. My point is that your best, is not my best, is not someone else's best.

We can only measure by our own experience. If someone comes on here spouting about their experience, their best, their success, chances our they are not going to comprehend my lack of success as being my best. Because to them, my best would have been failure to them. If that makes sense.

Hell, 3 years ago what was my best, is failure to me now. I will see anything that resembles where I was 3 years ago, not as best, but as failure. Because to me now, it is. It is hard for me to understand the head space I was in, how I allowed myself to exist like that, make the excuses I did.



Well thats a valid point against the post I found offensive. Some spouting, "I did this and this is how you do it". Was rather grating to me. The way you put it is just the words I didnt vocalize but should have. We are all individuals.

Which is another point. People act like obese people dont have a right to feelings. Obese people are the last group that its ok to yell slurs at.



LaTigresse -> RE: Why do we get all uppity about Weight based Threads? (3/24/2010 1:38:50 PM)

I have read that it is the last acceptable predjudism.



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