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Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/29/2010 1:51:51 AM

MasterK13

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I watched a CSI epispode where the moral was that because a sub can end the relationship/session at any momment he or she wants that makes them the ones in control what do you think of this?

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RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/29/2010 2:14:52 AM

dreamerdreaming

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So can the dom.

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RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/29/2010 3:09:28 AM

sunshinemiss

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I think people are complex. In the end no one ever gives up their bottom line responsibility for themselves.

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RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/29/2010 3:23:52 AM

aldompdx

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Every person is in control of themself and ultimately responsible for themself.
Surrender is by ongoing free choice from self will.
It is not what a controller takes, but what the surrendered shares.
The controller shares self mastery, awareness, presence.

Confusion over this can arise in a narcissist who believes they are entitled to everything they want.

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RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/29/2010 3:31:52 AM

Malkinius

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Greetings....

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterK13

I watched a CSI epispode where the moral was that because a sub can end the relationship/session at any momment he or she wants that makes them the ones in control what do you think of this?

This is the nasty little secret of BDSM that almost no one wants to admit. It is true any time there is a safeword, contract or hard limits the sub can enforce on the Dom or Master. Leaving the relationship is not the same thing as forcing a stop to an activity at the whim of the submissive. That is ending the connection, not the activity. Both sides can do that equally. Enslavement comes into play when one sides puts the other into a state where they both can not and do not want to end it no matter what. Enslavement and illegal captivity are not the same nor is it the same as the Stockholm Syndrome.

Be well....

Malkinius

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RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/29/2010 4:20:01 AM

allyC

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Hello MasterK13 :) I believe that a safeword is only worth the integrity of the person entrusted with it. When a person is bound and absolutely helpless, while they may have the power to utter a word, only the person in control has the power to make it stop. The reality of it all (in my opinion) is that for every person the balance of control will be different. For some, the word red could mean "this hurts too much, stop." And for others it could mean, "Something is terribly wrong, please help." And then for others, the placement of a safeword may not even be a part of their relationship. What it all boils down to is implicit trust because once you're in a position of complete vulnerability, a simple word has no power in itself. Well wishes, Cav's ally

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RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/29/2010 4:24:46 AM

lally2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterK13

I watched a CSI epispode where the moral was that because a sub can end the relationship/session at any momment he or she wants that makes them the ones in control what do you think of this?

if a Dominant gives a sub a safe word then that is the Dominants choice, prefferance, decision - furnished with that safe word the sub is required, expected to use it should the need arise - the sub has been given a tool by her Dominant to use - i dont see that as the sub taking control, merely following orders and allowing the Dominant to enjoy the session without having to worry about going too far and damaging trust. i was in a relationship once where it was insisted that i took a safe word. i didnt want it but i was told that i was being selfish by not taking it. perversely it would have been me taking control of the situation by refusing the safe word - in the end though the whole thing was dropped anyway. but it kinda underlines what im trying to say here. if the Dominant wishes for a safe word to be used then its encumbent upon the sub to take a safe word.

anyone can leave any relationship at any time if the circumstances dictate that that is the best thing for that person to do. just because we are sub does not mean that we are going to stick around in an unhealthy situation - thats not about being in control, its about personal responsibility.

so pfft to csi frankly

< Message edited by lally2 -- 3/29/2010 4:30:19 AM >

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RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/29/2010 4:59:28 AM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterK13

I watched a CSI epispode where the moral was that because a sub can end the relationship/session at any momment he or she wants that makes them the ones in control what do you think of this?

First, I think every dynamic is different. I've witnessed relationships where the sub was clearly topping from the bottom and was clearly in charge and others where the top truly mastered dominance.

As many have pointed out here, you have to separate ending the relationship with ending a session.

Ending a relationship is about deciding that the person you are with is not for you whereas ending a session is about a moment in time, which might not be the end of a relationship.

I don't do casual play, and therefore do not use safe words. I use real words, build up slowly and communicate. I will be the one who will end play if I see that my submissive partner is for some reason (emotional, psychological, physical) not able to continue.

Lastly, it might be wise, MasterK13, not to learn about BDSM from CSI.

- LA

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RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/29/2010 5:18:59 AM

SirPumpy

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An old question put to me a few times over the years.....

My argument has always been that if the session is going well the internal struggle is with the subject, Do I or Dont I end play........ Im scared but this is so damned good so do I end this wonderful sensation because im afraid of what comes next or do i hold out using my safeword and enjoy the ride.
What will I miss out on if I utter the word?

Whereas I can end play at any time for any or no reason at all, and if my playmate is bound then there is really no question to answer.

I am in ultimate control and bear ultimate responsibility as it is my judgement in use here and if I am doing my thing correctly then the recipient isnt really in a fit state of mind to make such a decision.

Then theres the question of who is REALLY the Top, who does all the work and who just hangs there and enjoys lol

Cheers,

SP

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RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/29/2010 5:30:12 AM

Focus50

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It's utter nonsense. Are you asking because you're a dom who apparently can't "end the relationship/session at any momment"?

As for the safeword analogy, it's true that it does afford a sub a certain level of control IN THEORY.... But I've learnt a few things through experience with safewords. I like someone new to me to have one as I don't know them well enough to read their body language so well. One factor is that if a sub is even big-toe deep in sub-space, she isn't likely to safeword regardless of what's happening. And another is that the longer a relationship lasts, the safeword becomes redundant without anyone even noticing. It was covertly replaced by mutual trust....

I control my M/s relationship - she controls whether she wants to be a part of it and that's it...!

Focus.

< Message edited by Focus50 -- 3/29/2010 5:32:27 AM >

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RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/29/2010 5:30:42 AM

GraciousLady

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This is a lifestyle choice not a law. Any D/s relationship is voluntary and either party may do as they wish. Like all relationships, it only works if there is enough in common to make it work.

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RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/29/2010 5:40:43 AM

DarkSteven

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In theory, Congress can write legislation, and the President's power is limited to signing or vetoing it.

That's similar to D/s. The Dom makes the laws, and the sub can approve or reject them.

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RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/29/2010 5:54:35 AM

KnightofMists

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It takes two (or more for poly) to make a relationship work.. and only one to say no.

I am thinking the power dynamic to be not alot different!

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RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/29/2010 6:28:03 AM

catize

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I am in 100% control of myself when I follow his orders, accept his authority, submit to his will.

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RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/29/2010 7:28:35 AM

leadership527

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterK13
I watched a CSI epispode where the moral was that because a sub can end the relationship/session at any momment he or she wants that makes them the ones in control what do you think of this?

I can easily envision situations in which this statement might be true. In general, I think talking about "doms" or "subs" in the generic sense is pointless. People are not generic. From the standpoint of my own actual relationship, I can say that nobody who looked at our day-to-day interactions would think that Carol was "really in control." A part of the problem, insofar as I am concerned, is the words selected. Words like "power" and "control" are vague and imprecise. I think in terms of a"authority" where things become crystal clear.

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RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/29/2010 7:45:35 AM

Smutmonger

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I never give much of this any serious consideration as more than "role playing" as long as there is no legal framework to support it.

I know this winds up absolutists no end-but that's the simple reality of it.

No matter how big or bad a "master/mistress" thinks they are-the only power they really have is what the sub gives them.

What a blow to fragile and overblown egos!

< Message edited by Smutmonger -- 3/29/2010 7:46:04 AM >

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RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/29/2010 8:10:48 AM

favesclava

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its not over til He says its over. i will never make the mistake of thinking i can stop Him from anything. i may ask or request a break or ask Him to stop if i'm not feeling well. its still up to Him to decide if He will stop or not.

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RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/29/2010 8:15:56 AM

allthatjaz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

if a Dominant gives a sub a safe word then that is the Dominants choice, prefferance, decision - furnished with that safe word the sub is required, expected to use it should the need arise - the sub has been given a tool by her Dominant to use - i dont see that as the sub taking control.

I have to go along with this. A long time ago I had a fem sub that would do anything and everything for me. She would jump through hoops and I often wondered if she would jump off a cliff if I told her to. The trouble with this relationship is, she was in control of it and not me. The reason I was not in control is because she wouldn't ever, under any circumstances use a safeword or just call out, 'I'm not coping well with this'. She was just about impossible to monitor during an S/m session because her 'yes Im fine' so often meant 'Im not fine at all'
'Oh but a good Master/Mistress can judge their sub' I hear you say. Not always. Only if the sub allows you in can you start to judge a reaction but a reactionless twit that lies through her signals is a lot of hard work and actually very controlling.

The rest is all down to dynamics and compatibility and depth of a relationship. The dominant leads and the submissive follows (so long as she desires to)
If she was forced then we need to take it out of the BDSM playing field and chuck it onto the abuse wagon. We are all here because we want to be and not because we have to be.

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RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/29/2010 8:18:11 AM

allthatjaz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smutmonger

I never give much of this any serious consideration as more than "role playing" as long as there is no legal framework to support it.

I know this winds up absolutists no end-but that's the simple reality of it.

No matter how big or bad a "master/mistress" thinks they are-the only power they really have is what the sub gives them.

What a blow to fragile and overblown egos!

and with those words I couldn't agree more!

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RE: Who's really in control the Dom or sub? - 3/29/2010 8:37:50 AM

DesFIP

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Both are. Both can end the relationship at any time. Both can refuse to play. I don't know about the op, but for me it isn't an adversarial relationship with us trying to one up each other, we both have the same goals. We both want play to be enjoyable and satisfying and we want the relationship to be strong.And as long as we work toward that win/win neither of us has a reason to end it.

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