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RE: Dominant Accountability - 4/5/2006 6:19:38 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SylkBelieves
When a sub or slave falls short of their Dom/Master's expectations it is generally expected that the sub/slave will be held accountable by that Dom/Master by one means or another.  Dominants and Masters are humans and subject to human shortcomings.  So, how are THEY held accountable?


In my opinion, being accountable is being responsible for your actions, no matter if they are right or wrong.  For me, each person is accountable for themselves and their own behavior. 

My Lord sets the expectations for my behavior and I am responsible for meeting them.  He sets expectations for his behavior and he is responsible for meeting them.  It is our own internal motivation to improve ourselves and our relationship that drives us to meet these expectations.  He makes me aware when my behavior is falling below his expectations and if given permission, I will give my opinion when I think his behavior is falling below his expectations. 

He will listen to my opinion and make the decision, sometimes he will give an apology if he thinks he made a mistake, sometimes the behavior will just change, sometimes he will just point out where my thinking is flawed, sometimes it is not mentioned again.  Whatever happens, he made the decision to hear my opinion and he made the decision on whether his behavior met his expectations or not.  My opinion is just that and it is given with his permission.  What he does with my opinion is his choice.

What makes him master is that they are all his expectations, not mine; he makes the decision, not me.  I chose him because his expectations for behavior (mine and his) resonated with me.  They were often what I would choose for myself if I had the authority.  I chose him not because I needed someone to tell me what is best for me, but because he demonstrated that I could trust him to make the decisions for me. 

In his opinion, I would not be fulfilling my duties as a slave to him if I did not help him improve himself.  That means that I have to have the courage to share my opinion with him even when I know he is not going to like what I have to say.  The most terrifying time that I have shared my opinion with him was many months ago.  I had been struggling for days with negative thoughts and my feelings.  He was trying to fix it in his characteristic way by giving me a mental kick in the ass.  We now refer to this as him using a hammer.  For several days he did this and it only made the thoughts and emotions worse.  Finally, he was completely exasperated with me and said “I’m getting real tired of having to give you a kick in the ass, girl”.  I just looked at him and asked “How is that working for you, my Lord?”  It very clearly was not working for him at all.  Needless to say, I think that is the most pissed off that I have ever seen him. 

Come to find out later, that it was an illuminating moment for him on how his behavior was falling below his expectations of himself.  He was angry at himself and not at me.  He has not picked up that hammer again when talking with me.  It was a very definitive point in our relationship where we became even closer.  He learned that he could trust in me to point out the difficult things that he needs to hear and I learned that I could trust him to pick a different path if the current one was not working for him. 

Did this situation upset the M/s structure in our relationship?  Not at all; in fact, it enhanced it and caused our relationship to grow by leaps and bounds.  Will this work for every M/s relationship?  Nope.  It works for us.  My Lord enjoys and relies on my direct nature and my ability to ask the tough questions.  He uses it to improve and enhance himself and his house.

Knight’s kyra


_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to SylkBelieves)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Dominant Accountability - 4/5/2006 6:33:12 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		I am accountable for all my words and deeds (Including those who are following my orders or obeying my wishes)... No whimpering excuses..Perhaps an explanation as to why.... Still, MY Command>>>>THE BUCK STOPS HERE!

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Dominant Accountability - 4/5/2006 6:39:10 PM   
E110


Posts: 16
Joined: 1/28/2005
Status: offline 		isnt the question what role do we each consider ourselves in..if i am dominant over my sub.. in what way and detail.. and i dont like using the word.. fail.. does a person fail at life.. no.. how bout if one does not say.. do as was hoped /expected.. the best course of action is honest open discussio ..i imagine if a slave in some way let down her dom.. she feels far worse than him... the sub women i have met the true honest sub woemn have a level of giving that is truly astounding..

(in reply to SylkBelieves)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Dominant Accountability - 4/5/2006 9:59:43 PM   
Takethiswaltz


Posts: 199
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

With some fava beans and a nice chainti.


ahh, such a nice meal, Dr. Lecter!

_____________________________

Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in...

~Leonard Cohen~

(in reply to amayos)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Dominant Accountability - 4/5/2006 11:52:51 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

Accountability is a system in which a person is required or expected to justify his or her actions or decisions. Though I may often be kind enough to do so, it is clearly understood that I need not justify or explain my actions or decisions to my slaves. The suggestion of such an idea is absurd to me; they are not in a position to judge, and it is more than a little foolish to allow them to be. It is well enough that a Master be personally accountable to himself.


Thinking like this worries me because it creates an environment that is ripe for abuse. Everyone makes mistakes, and if your sub/slave must accept your behavior/choices/decisions without question or discussion you are not simply being dominant, you are being a dictator. Above and beyond all the trappings of  D/s a sub/slave has a responsibility to him/herself to stay safe both physically and emotionally. If that takes questioning and demanding an explanation, then it should be given. If a gross error is made then an apology is in order. I would have a very hard time respecting a person of such fragile ego that he/she could not admit to making a mistake.



my view on this is, Master makes an error, he corrects the error.  Correcting the error occurs by making new decisions to bring things back on track.  Master has my best interest and the best interest of our relationship in mind at all times.  i either trust that or i do not.  i trust he always makes the best decisions he can, based on his intentions and what he knows.  Why should he ever apologize for that?  This does not mean he does not recognize a miscalculation.  He might even discuss it with me, to allow me to understand.  But that is his choice, not his obligation.


(in reply to TNstepsout)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Dominant Accountability - 4/5/2006 11:56:12 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

my view on this is, Master makes an error, he corrects the error.  Correcting the error occurs by making new decisions to bring things back on track.  Master has my best interest and the best interest of our relationship in mind at all times.  i either trust that or i do not.  i trust he always makes the best decisions he can, based on his intentions and what he knows.  Why should he ever apologize for that?  This does not mean he does not recognize a miscalculation.  He might even discuss it with me, to allow me to understand.  But that is his choice, not his obligation.



Bulls Eye!!!!!!!! Thank you Lass



_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Dominant Accountability - 4/6/2006 2:03:30 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
my view on this is, Master makes an error, he corrects the error.  Correcting the error occurs by making new decisions to bring things back on track.  Master has my best interest and the best interest of our relationship in mind at all times.  i either trust that or i do not.  i trust he always makes the best decisions he can, based on his intentions and what he knows.  Why should he ever apologize for that?  This does not mean he does not recognize a miscalculation.  He might even discuss it with me, to allow me to understand.  But that is his choice, not his obligation.


Well said dear, whilst LA's version of D/s relationship is obviously compleatly diffrent to the way I run mine, your Master and I clearly have a fair bit in common in that regard.

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
I am accountable for all my words and deeds (Including those who are following my orders or obeying my wishes)... No whimpering excuses..Perhaps an explanation as to why.... Still, MY Command>>>>THE BUCK STOPS HERE!


I would expect no less an answer from you old friend. Maybe this is more a military thing, valid orders and grey areas are the responcibility of the person giving the command and those following the order are not at fault, A clear illegal order there is some responcibility for not following such on the part of those being commanded but even there the greater responcibility and accountability lies with the CO.


_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Dominant Accountability - 4/6/2006 2:30:58 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		I am sure old friend, that in another life we have faced hords of invaders side by side as Brothers in Arms.....

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to RavenMuse)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Dominant Accountability - 4/6/2006 5:02:08 AM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
my view on this is, Master makes an error, he corrects the error.  Correcting the error occurs by making new decisions to bring things back on track.  Master has my best interest and the best interest of our relationship in mind at all times.  i either trust that or i do not.  i trust he always makes the best decisions he can, based on his intentions and what he knows.  Why should he ever apologize for that?  This does not mean he does not recognize a miscalculation.  He might even discuss it with me, to allow me to understand.  But that is his choice, not his obligation.


I think that for the most part, everyone does the best they can in any given situation.  There are exceptions, but people generally try to do their best in any given moment.  So this train of thought would mean that no one should apologize for making mistakes or for the pain they cause. 

To me an apology does not say, "I didn't do my best", it just means that I made a mistake or I wish my choices didn't hurt you.  When I see or hear an articulate and heartfelt apology, I see wisdom, maturity, openmindness and strength at work.  I don't think that any of these traits is something that a dominant would not want to exhibit. 

Knight's kyra 

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Dominant Accountability - 4/6/2006 7:21:02 AM   
alandraofMists


Posts: 187
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline 		i posted this for kyra under my nick...
 
Just to clarify my last post, it is not intended as a disagreement to ownedgirlie’s position, but rather to broaden the scope to say that I don’t think anyone is obligated to apologize.  When someone does sincerely apologize, I believe that they are exhibiting the character strengths that I mentioned.

I do think that we all should be accountable for our actions.  But I don’t think that an apology is necessarily a demonstration of accountability.  Being accountable and apologizing are two different things.  To me being accountable means that you recognize the mistakes that you make and you take steps to try and prevent those same mistakes in the future.  This can be a completely internal process with no external input or validation.  However, we do not always know the impact our choices have on others.  It is in those times that we have to rely on the people we have affected to communicate with us.  My relationship encourages this and provides me with a protocol to do this within the M/s structure.

Knight's kyra


< Message edited by alandraofMists -- 4/6/2006 7:29:34 AM >

(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Dominant Accountability - 4/6/2006 8:17:00 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: alandraofMists

i posted this for kyra under my nick...
 
Just to clarify my last post, it is not intended as a disagreement to ownedgirlie’s position, but rather to broaden the scope to say that I don’t think anyone is obligated to apologize.  When someone does sincerely apologize, I believe that they are exhibiting the character strengths that I mentioned.

I do think that we all should be accountable for our actions.  But I don’t think that an apology is necessarily a demonstration of accountability.  Being accountable and apologizing are two different things.  To me being accountable means that you recognize the mistakes that you make and you take steps to try and prevent those same mistakes in the future.  This can be a completely internal process with no external input or validation.  However, we do not always know the impact our choices have on others.  It is in those times that we have to rely on the people we have affected to communicate with us.  My relationship encourages this and provides me with a protocol to do this within the M/s structure.

Knight's kyra



i am glad you stated that clarification, because your last post seemed to be implying my Master does not have wisdom, maturity, opennmindedness and strength.  And we would have had a problem

i did not imply my Master is not accountable for his actions.  i also did not state he never apologizes.  i only stated that i do not need his apology, because i already know, from his efforts at correcting a situation gone off course, how he feels.

In my case, he has a fairly accurate sense of predictability as to how i will be impacted by anything he does.  It is those very, very rare times when he has miscalculated.  During those times, i don't beg for an apology, i just really want him to "fix it."  And he always does. And to me, "fix it" means not only redirecting the scenario to a better place, but bringing me back to the right frame of mind.  For some, that may mean an apology.  For me, it means something different.

Funny, because my ex husband did not believe in apologies and that was really painful to me.  my dynamic with my Master is much different, however.

(in reply to alandraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Dominant Accountability - 4/6/2006 8:22:46 AM   
scratchingpost


Posts: 231
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Hold themselves accountable and have to face the consequences.


Anyone who says the dom has the easy end because they just get to make orders and hand out punishments is dealing with a dom who isn't really taking themselves seriously.


I completely agree!!

_____________________________

be safe and smile
purrrs kitty
(=^.^=)
www.misskittys-scratchingpost.com

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Dominant Accountability - 4/6/2006 8:23:44 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline 		That is how I see it....as said, where *I* see I have made an error then *I* will do my damndest to fix it.... that doesn't automaticaly mean an appology, sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.... Too many folks think the word "Sorry" is magic and makes everything automaticaly better when the important thing is that work is done to correct the situation. How it is handled is MY responcibility and my decision, whilst I am not 'accountable' to my girl I do value her happiness and my decision about what needs doing takes that into account.

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Dominant Accountability - 4/6/2006 8:26:04 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

I think that for the most part, everyone does the best they can in any given situation.  There are exceptions, but people generally try to do their best in any given moment.  So this train of thought would mean that no one should apologize for making mistakes or for the pain they cause. 

Knight's kyra 


i can see your train of thought here. mine is a bit different.  i had to think about this when i started thinking about needing apologies from my ex and not from my Master.  When someone i love treats me with careless disregard, or simply did not consider me or the effects of their actions on me -  that is when i get the most hurt, and that is when an apology goes a long way.  i know that is never the case with my Master.  i know all of his decisions about me/us are designed with me in mind, and are carefully thought through as to their effect.  Because of a long standing track record of "doing the right thing" and spot-on-accurate calculations of my responses, i do not fault him if a decision here or there has gone off course (this doesn't mean i don't get upset, however!).   Doing the best he can is different than doing the best he can while being accutely aware of how i might react (lots of people do the best they can, which is substandard when they do not consider the people around them).  He has done the work to get to know me so well he can predict me.  If once in awhile his prediction is off, i do not view that as being careless or inconsiderate.  i view it as, he was trying to do good by us, and unintentionally hit the wrong trigger button.

So, i am not saying apologies do not go a long way.  i am only saying they are not something i need in the circumstances between my Master and i.

(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Dominant Accountability - 4/6/2006 8:29:47 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

How it is handled is MY responcibility and my decision, whilst I am not 'accountable' to my girl I do value her happiness and my decision about what needs doing takes that into account.


i agree.  And from the recipient's point of view, how i see it being handled goes so much farther than the words, "I'm sorry."   i can hear the tone in his voice; i can see the look in his eyes...and sometimes i can actually hear those wheels in his head cranking into overdrive while he works to redirect the situation!  That he cares enough to drop what he's doing to "make things right," soothes me.

Raven & Ironbear, thank you for your comments.

(in reply to RavenMuse)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Dominant Accountability - 4/6/2006 8:49:09 AM   
acctonthelook


Posts: 245
Joined: 3/28/2006
Status: offline 		From what I know and believe, there should always be the communication factor in ANY relationship between two people. 
 
If that means accountability, then so be it on either end of the dynamic. Just b/c one is a master vs. a sub does not mean either person has no feelings, thoughts or needs.  It's still a relationship that needs communication. 
 
What's most important is that the master also can grow along with the sub during his final actions for change, growth or just willingness to make the communication or relationship better.  It leads to more trust for the sub when master makes decisions.  Communication is the key to having trust.
 
No one person is perfect and we all need the opportunity for growth.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Dominant Accountability - 4/6/2006 1:41:45 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Something Iomitted from my earlier post.. When I said I accept full responsibilite for my actions and those under my command. The fract that the Buck stops here also means and is implied and now defined.. I also accept the responsiobility of fixing the problem and not handing it off to others to fix..... The fixing goes with the same teritory as the commanding.....  So simple really nothing to make a song and dance about..  Appologies to slaves.. perhaps if it is waranted.. Explanations? Hell yes,said slaves need to know what went wron, why it went wrong and what has happened to fix the problem.. otherwise there may be a drop inthetrustdepartment..... never did believe in treating slaves like mushrooms << keep in the dark and feed with shit>> Does not for a slave who has implicit trust inyour prowess as the Master does it... One of the marks of a Man (we all know that Masters are Men not men), is the guts to admit a woopsie in public and fix it and let folks know the problemis fixed....... 

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to acctonthelook)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Dominant Accountability - 4/7/2006 3:35:57 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		Dominant Accountability

In discussing “Dominant Accountability” one must consider not only how one defines these terms but also the implications that the definition logically conveys and doesn’t convey.

Defined by Merrian-Webster
Accountability the quality or state of being accountable; especially : an obligation or willingness to accept responsibility or to account for one's actions <public officials lacking accountability>

It is rather clear that being accountable of ones actions is an obligation or willingness to be accept responsibility for ones actions or accounting for ones actions.


Defined by Merian-Webster
Accountable 1 : subject to giving an account : ANSWERABLE
2 : capable of being accounted for : EXPLAINABLE
 
Responsibility 1 : the quality or state of being responsible : as a : moral, legal, or mental accountability b : RELIABILITY, TRUSTWORTHINESS
2 : something for which one is responsible : BURDEN
 
Responsible 1 a : liable to be called on to answer b (1) : liable to be called to account as the primary cause, motive, or agent <a committee responsible for the job> (2) : being the cause or explanation <mechanical defects were responsible for the accident> c : liable to legal review or in case of fault to penalties
2 a : able to answer for one's conduct and obligations : TRUSTWORTHY b : able to choose for oneself between right and wrong
3 : marked by or involving responsibility or accountability <responsible financial policies> <a responsible job>
4 : politically answerable; especially : required to submit to the electorate if defeated by the legislature -- used especially of the British cabinet


In viewing the various definitions that are largely understood by our society, I came to the general thoughts that Accountability is about being able to answer and explain ones actions.  The definitions themselves do not convey that everyone is accountable or even should be accountable.  It only conveys what is accountability and that it requires either a willingness or obligation on those involved.  The implication that that there is a requirement to have a willingness or obligation for one to have accountability would suggest that there needs to be a choice to accept accountability.  In other words, a Dominant must make a choice to accept accountability. Even term the obligation is actually a choice by a person to make the commitment of obligating oneself

Defined by Merian-Webster
Obligation 1 : the action of obligating oneself to a course of action (as by a promise or vow)
2 a : something (as a formal contract, a promise, or the demands of conscience or custom) that obligates one to a course of action b : a debt security (as a mortgage or corporate bond) c : a commitment (as by a government) to pay a particular sum of money; also : an amount owed under such an obligation <unable to meet its obligations, the company went into bankruptcy>
3 a : a condition or feeling of being obligated b : a debt of gratitude
4 : something one is bound to do : DUTY, RESPONSIBILITY



In my thoughts accountability doesn’t actually reflect what the consequences of ones actions should be or that such consequences are either negative or positive.

It is my thoughts that Accountability is nothing more that a person choosing to accept responsibility for ones actions, no matter if they are positive or negative actions.  The actual consequence that a person will enjoy or suffer from being accountable is a relationship issue.  Every relationship and person will choose to accept there own consequences with regards to the relationships that they are in.

It is my opinion that it is very important for a submissive to understand how accountability applies in a relationship with the Dominant they are involved with.  It is great words for a Dominant to state that they hold themselves accountable.  But, my question would be HOW?  Words are just words and it is the actions that will show accountability.  Every situation is inherently different and no one specific action will reflect acceptance of accountability by the Dominant. 

I would also suggest that accountability also conveys that expectations are established before hand.  It is my thought that a submissive gives submission to their chosen Dominant with the expectations that the Dominant will meet the standards that motivated the submission in the first place.  If such expectations are not met or unrealistic, it will cause much stress and anxiety in the relationship.  In such a case, both parties are going to be accountable for their actions.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to SylkBelieves)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Dominant Accountability - 4/7/2006 4:01:34 PM   
scratchingpost


Posts: 231
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		I believe that a Dominant should be held accountable for their behavior and the submissive call them on it with RESPECT when they make an error that causes them harm. I feel the dominant can learn from their mistakes and grow just as much as a submissive.

_____________________________

be safe and smile
purrrs kitty
(=^.^=)
www.misskittys-scratchingpost.com

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Dominant Accountability - 4/7/2006 4:10:35 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: scratchingpost

I believe that a Dominant should be held accountable for their behavior and the submissive call them on it with RESPECT when they make an error that causes them harm. I feel the dominant can learn from their mistakes and grow just as much as a submissive.


Is it your place to determine what "SHOULD" occur for other Dominants in their relationships?  If so, where do you draw the line of when it is appropriate of what "Should" occur in a relationship that is not your own?

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to scratchingpost)
Profile   Post #: 100
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