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RE: Truth!?! Truth!?! - 4/9/2006 7:08:08 PM   
SusanofO


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I have something to add here that might seem like I am "going off on a tangent", but it is related. Re: "The truth" -

I take for granted there are some things people probably really need to find out about eachother up front that might otherwise make the chasm between them "too wide to bridge" if they weren't (I appreciated slavejali's comment. Things like: Do you have-want kids, are you married (if it's monogamy or poly one is seeking, etc.)

**But -  After some kind of relationship has been forged, is a sub-slave allowed to voice her(or his) "version" of what constitutes "the truth"?

I am really eventually hoping for a relationship w/someone where each person appreciates a good stimulating conversation. I like discussing things, and am not sure exactly just what my views are on certain things, and others I think I have definite views about. 

I really do see myself as primarily a slave (not a sub) in terms of "inclinations". I want to be (eventually) in a situation where I can focus almost solely on the needs and desires of the other person before my own. I want to give them what they want.

I am also hoping I can still have stimulating conversations w/the other person - even if we don't see things the same way as far as our views on different topics all the time. I guess I am hoping I will still have a voice - a chance- to have thoughts about things. I don't want to have to completely "disappear" and fade into nothingness...is this totally incongruous with the idea of being a slave - or does it just depend, maybe, on the people involved? 

It would never be a "threat" to me if I  was with someone who felt differently about some topics than I do - of course it's nice when two people have a "lot in common" I spose - but I also think that people's differences can make them pretty darned interesting. I guess I am maybe feeling scared I won't be able to think about things anymore at all. Thinking about things is one of my secret joys in life. I really don't want to have to give it up. I am referring to garden variety conversation topics - not "deal breaker" differences between people that maybe should prevent a relationship to begin with.

Do people have to see "eye-to-eye" every minute of every day on every topic to "prove" they care about the other person? I think that it might be just how they relate their "differences" to eachother that is going to either make or break a relationship. I am a big fan of diplomacy in inter-personal relationships - and want someone whose opinions I find interesting and fascinating and whom I can respect - but if we aren't cookie-cutter replicas of eachother all the time, every minute of the day in terms of what we think about or even how we think gueess I am hoping that wouldn't be an earth-shattering thing to the other person.

I guess I'd want someone (eventually) I have a whole lot in common with - but if they aren't at least a little bit different than I am what will there be even left for me to learn? What could they ever teach me?

And since Doms and Masters, I am hoping, can also learn things from subs and slaves (on occasion), I am hoping voicing an opinion is okay with them too. I think maybe I am being "vague" here - but I've been on this planet for 46 years now and have concluded (so far) that there isn't anyone who has a be-all, end-all handle on "the truth" - about much of anything. It doesn't mean I've lost faith in humanity - but I think "the truth" is pretty relative much of the time. And I am also desperately hoping that this statement is Not mis-interpeted as me being a potential "brat" because I am truly as far from that kind of person I'd think it is possible to be (I realize that presumption is all in the "eye of the beholder" but I still think that it's true). I absolutely hate "fighting."

Seeing something from another's point of view is what I think can sometimes make life interesting. If two people have different viewpoints to begin with, in order to do that I guess they'd have to be interested in seeing things from the other person's veiwpoint. Maybe what I am saying here is that I am hoping all respect for another person as a thinking human being doesn't get flushed down the toilet just because one has decided they are a slave (or even a sub). I just hate it when people fight - I just absolutely hate it. But I don't want to completely 100% 'disappear' altogether. 

I guess (once again), this may just mean people really have to try to get to know eachother and any relationship is a risk, etc. - Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/9/2006 7:53:46 PM >


_____________________________

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That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Truth!?! Truth!?! - 4/9/2006 7:20:14 PM   
truesub4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel

quote:

That is the basic premise of life itself, why do you think things should be more honest because we are in the "life"? Because we share this "secret"?


I don't know that it has anything to do with this "secret". But yes, I do believe that people in this lifestyle do need to be more open and honest in their relationships. Why? When you consider a vanilla relationship, lets use a couple that has been married for ten years. The wife gave up trying to "teach" her husband what she enjoys in bed (that's saying she even tried to teach him) and now she just fakes it once or twice a month... she's ok with it, so is he, why not? Right?

Now you take people involved in this lifestyle... He says "Oh yes, I love the single tail!! I have lots of experience with it!"... when in reality he has looked at them on ebay... that makes for lasting scars.

Ok... too extreme maybe... but it's just food for thought. I'm a firm believer that you have to be totally honest with yourself before you can be totally honest with a potential partner, particularly in this lifestyle.. otherwise you are just asking to get hurt.


Maybe too extreme...... but oh so right.


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RE: Truth!?! Truth!?! - 4/9/2006 7:50:37 PM   
IronBear


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Lets imagine I got lucky and found girl in my area who wanted to ultimately wear My Collar after being in a House Collar.. Our final pre-face to face conversation (via email) would go thus:

  There are certain things I want and need you to do before we meet:

 
  • I require you be totally and brutally honest with yourself about your expectations, needs and wants in a relationships with me.
  • I want and require you to be  completely honest with me in these expectations, needs and wants in a relationships, with me.
  • I want you to tell me as much as you feel comfortable with regarding your past.
  • However, I do need to know about things which may impact on our future relationship. This is so I can deal with them if they happen and if necessary, to protect you. If there are things which you are unable to tell me, I expect you to let me know. Especially private confidences. These I respect and do not expect you to breach agreements or promises. It is important to have a clear slate.
  • Baggage I can deal with if I know what it is. In time you will tell me all except those kept secret by promise. Why? Not because I will command you to or such, but because in time as trust, loyalty and love grows,  and you learn that nothing you say from your past will harm your collar or my feelings, you will both want and need to tell me.


< Message edited by IronBear -- 4/9/2006 7:51:24 PM >


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Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

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RE: Truth!?! Truth!?! - 4/9/2006 10:28:10 PM   
dorsaisgirl1


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very nice iron bear.

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RE: Truth!?! Truth!?! - 4/10/2006 12:06:01 AM   
SusanofO


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Yes I really liked that too, Iron Bear. - Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Truth!?! Truth!?! - 4/10/2006 2:55:39 AM   
IronBear


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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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Awwwwww fanks you two  (wanna see an ancienr grizzly blushing??)  It is accurate and true though not just something "nice" It is the way I think, opperate and live.. It is just lil old me..

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: Truth!?! Truth!?! - 4/10/2006 6:57:35 AM   
LadyJulieAnn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: METOO

quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

I never had trouble quickly picking out the wannabes


I suspect the "wannabes" are more often the case then those that are real. Seems the "wannabes" want the play or play at their conveinience, rather then the commitment that the life demands


I think it's possible to be "real" without wanting a commitment.  As long as the people involved are aware of this from the start, participating in casual play does not make the person less real, in my opinion.
 
Be well,
Julie

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RE: Truth!?! Truth!?! - 4/10/2006 7:29:02 AM   
METOO


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyJulieAnn

quote:

ORIGINAL: METOO

quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

I never had trouble quickly picking out the wannabes


I suspect the "wannabes" are more often the case then those that are real. Seems the "wannabes" want the play or play at their conveinience, rather then the commitment that the life demands


I think it's possible to be "real" without wanting a commitment.  As long as the people involved are aware of this from the start, participating in casual play does not make the person less real, in my opinion.
 
Be well,
Julie


"As long as the people involved are aware of this from the start"
 
Therein lies the problem. People meaning all partipants. The one way street that often arises is that which is a result of either the total lie or the lack of disclosure.In a two fold relationship, if one is being totally honest and the other is not, ultimately there is gonna be a hurt

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RE: Truth!?! Truth!?! - 4/10/2006 8:26:49 AM   
plantlady64


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: METOO

Assuming truth is “The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth” (to use a rather trite statement), when exactly does one tell the truth?

Lifestyle/BDSM lifestyle has an original premise of honesty and, correspondingly, the trustworthiness that is it’s resultant. To profess to such a lifestyle one must swear by this premise.

The question, therefore, is when does it begin when either initiating or relating to communication? Does it begin with the first Email/IM? The second? The third? Does it begin with the first phone call? The second? The Third? Does it begin with the first meeting? The second? The Third? When is the “other”, if there is one, given the truth? Is the truth twofold for both the new acquaintance as well as the “old” one?
I think you see where I’m going with this. Discussion?


There is no such thing as truth, truth a matter of perception. If you want someone to tell you the truth according to what truth is to you, you need to make sure that person has the same perception of reality as you. An impossibility because they are not you.

As for honesty and trustworthiness in the lifestyle, I have to admit I have yet to notice it or at least notice it is more prevelent in the lifestyle than anywhere else.

Hello All,

Perception as to what the truth is being the mutual between both parties is critical as to weather or not you fully disclose the truth the way the other expects you to.

For example how many times has a Dom told you he does not want you to be fake in his presence only to turn around and say if I give you an order and you don't like it I want you to do it with a smile anyway.
Where is the truth in don't be fake/be fake statements like that? To me it's in the perception of the Dom and the sub to decide what that means in the gray left in between so it can work the way he wants.

I say finding any person in this world who thinks it's important to be a person of their word is hard. It seems to me very few live their life concerned with the integrity more than the surface now a days. Finding truthful folks in the world is becoming a rare find indeed.
Sincerely,
Suzanne

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RE: Truth!?! Truth!?! - 4/10/2006 8:37:17 AM   
plantlady64


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Evanesce


In my life, there is no room for lies and deception.  I am exactly the same person in the real world that people see online.  That's my real face in that photograph, and I really am 47 years old and overweight.  I see no constructive purpose in trying to hide anything about who and what I am, and I expect nothing less from those who wish to correspond or get acquainted with me.  I am, by nature, highly suspicious and distrustful of strangers and, if I learn someone has lied to me, it's going to be damned near impossible for that person to ever gain, or regain, my trust.
 
Be true to yourself; be straight with me; and we'll get along just fine.

Hello Evanesce,
I agree with your statement with my whole heart. I could not have said it better myself.
Suzanne

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RE: Truth!?! Truth!?! - 4/10/2006 9:26:12 AM   
Moloch


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Lies is when you tell her that the jeans have shrunk, truth is when you tell her that her butt got big.

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RE: Truth!?! Truth!?! - 4/10/2006 12:24:19 PM   
tasha_tart


Posts: 385
Joined: 2/20/2004
From: Ontario, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: METOO

Assuming truth is “The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth” (to use a rather trite statement), when exactly does one tell the truth?

Lifestyle/BDSM lifestyle has an original premise of honesty and, correspondingly, the trustworthiness that is it’s resultant. To profess to such a lifestyle one must swear by this premise.

The question, therefore, is when does it begin when either initiating or relating to communication? Does it begin with the first Email/IM? The second? The third? Does it begin with the first phone call? The second? The Third? Does it begin with the first meeting? The second? The Third? When is the “other”, if there is one, given the truth? Is the truth twofold for both the new acquaintance as well as the “old” one?
I think you see where I’m going with this. Discussion?

 
IMO, one should be telling the truth right from the start.  I don't believe this includes giving every little detail in your first communication, but lying or deliberately omitting material facts is going to doom things from the start.
 
I know the second part of that is harder judge than the first.  Everyone knows (or should) when they're telling an outright lie, but one person's minor detail may be another's deal breaker.  I suppose one way of dealing with that would be to ask yourself  "Is this something I would need to know about her/him?"  If the answer is yes, then you probably shouldn't be keeping that information to yourself.
 
As an example from my experience, not telling my fiancee of my femme side was not actively lying to her (the topic never arose) it certainly was lying by omission.  This was something she needed to know about me to be able to make an informed decision.  Like any relationship based on lies, it fell apart in time. 
 
Would I keep that bit of information (among others) to myself in future? No, definitely not.
 
Having said that, is it something I would immediately tell someone I'd just met in "real" life?  No, not likely, but if there seemed to be a relationship developing, as difficult as it might be, I would have to.

Tasha
 
 

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"Sex without love is an empty experience. But as empty experiences go, it's one of the better ones."...Woody Allen

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RE: Truth!?! Truth!?! - 4/10/2006 3:40:54 PM   
scratchingpost


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quote:

ORIGINAL: METOO

The question, therefore, is when does it begin when either initiating or relating to communication? Does it begin with the first Email/IM? The second? The third? Does it begin with the first phone call? The second? The Third? Does it begin with the first meeting? The second? The Third? When is the “other”, if there is one, given the truth? Is the truth twofold for both the new acquaintance as well as the “old” one?
I think you see where I’m going with this. Discussion?

Why not always be truthful and if asked a question that you do not wish to give an answer to simply say that "I do not feel comfortable speaking of this topic right now with all due respect. Perhaps at a later date we can revisit this subject. " it is one of many honest truthful answers that might work. Letting someone know that you are still not comfortable opening up completely also helps estabilish trust as well. If they are patient and give you time to grow in a relationship that might be a sign of how they will treat you with respect and consideration in the future. (of course once ownership takes place the rules drastically change but I do not see why a polite lets talk about it when I am ready will do harm unless one is keeping a secret such as a hidden marriage or disease (or something of significant nature) that might affect the relationship they are entering into)

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be safe and smile
purrrs kitty
(=^.^=)
www.misskittys-scratchingpost.com

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RE: Truth!?! Truth!?! - 4/10/2006 4:16:18 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Truth is a slippery thing, sometimes, isn't it?  

For the philosophical out there, yes, "truth" is subjective in the final analysis, but objective operationally in the everyday world.  So I'll dispense with any philosophical debate about "truth".

Operationally, and especially as related to this environment, truth is more correctly compared to "honesty" (another slippery word at times).  I think that is why the conversation has turned to "truth" in relationships, and especially at the begining of a relationship, because that is often the time that people are the most cautious (rightly so), and have their antennas out a quivering at their most sensitive settings (or that is when they should be the most sensitive).

And I think Evanesce's comment is the key to the entire "mystery" ... that the inablity to be honest with yourself - for whatever reason - automatically means that you are less than honest with anyone and everyone else you come into contact with.

Now, that doesn't mean that you have to go around and be brutually "honest" to everyone about exactly what you think.  Or more accurately, you don't have to run your mouth giving your opinions with no sense of couth or manners to every person you meet.  Tact plays a big part of being a social being.  But ... sometimes, you may be or look dishonest to others. Or you may slide over into dishonesty when you think you are just "being tactful".

Which is why occasional introspection and self-analysis is useful, and good for the soul of even the most confident dominant.  It's a mid-course correction, and why I'm always suspicious of "dom's" who can't, or won't admit to mistakes in judgements, on occasion.  Being confident doesn't mean that you never doubt yourself, to me it means you have a clear idea about why and how you act and treat others, but you also know that sometimes you can be wrong and make mistakes - but that crying over split milk is useless.  Changing your behavior and outlook based on any mistakes is healthy - and honest.

And to SusanofO's point about wanting to still be an individual, to have and enjoy individuality even if she might self-identify as a slave in a relationship -  I see this as one of the areas of understanding in the  lifestyle that is poorly defined, or at least rarely talked about in a coherent way.

You see it all the time with submissives.  Some just want to be used as a piece of meat, with every decision made for them from how and when to use the restroom, to how to hold their tongue when they chew their food.

Others, it's hard to tell any difference between how they define being a submissive to how a Christian covenant marriage union is seen, with the husband as HoH (head of household).

And there are dominants and "Doms" who want the mirror image of the same things.

I think there is a lot of room for some new concepts in the lifestyle to define the different levels more accurately.

Personally, I see a sub or slave as more than a "piece of meat".  Sure, she has a body - but she has a mind, and a soul, and a heart.  Why, if she were your slave, would you not wish to take advantage (in a positive sense) of all of her? Such a waste! If as a dominant, you don't think you could learn from anyone else, even a sub or a slave - then I would be curious as to the basis of both your honesty with yourself, and your dominance.

FHky

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RE: Truth!?! Truth!?! - 4/10/2006 4:48:59 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: METOO

quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

quote:

Essentially, I will tell you as much as I want to tell you. No more no less.. If you can’t live with that and want to know everything, it is time for us to part, regrettable as it may be..

 
IronBear makes a very very good point---if I tell you as much as I want you to know--is that not being truthful? In a person of honor, there is no reason to pursue---but the problem is when it is not a person of honor and it becomes "the sin of omission".
 


If I IM/Email a Sub or a dom on this sight and begin a cyber relationship with them and don't tell them about my other, is that and omission or just out and out dishonesty?


it really depends on the obligations that exist in all the relationships.  In this question there is not understanding or expression of what the obligations or even expectations are.  It could very well be that there is no obligations on anyone's part.... or only in one of the relationships. 


_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: Truth!?! Truth!?! - 4/10/2006 6:37:50 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO


**But -  After some kind of relationship has been forged, is a sub-slave allowed to voice her(or his) "version" of what constitutes "the truth"?

I am really eventually hoping for a relationship w/someone where each person appreciates a good stimulating conversation. I like discussing things, and am not sure exactly just what my views are on certain things, and others I think I have definite views about. 

I really do see myself as primarily a slave (not a sub) in terms of "inclinations". I want to be (eventually) in a situation where I can focus almost solely on the needs and desires of the other person before my own. I want to give them what they want.

I am also hoping I can still have stimulating conversations w/the other person - even if we don't see things the same way as far as our views on different topics all the time. I guess I am hoping I will still have a voice - a chance- to have thoughts about things.  Susan


I give you my word that there are ones such as yourself in servitude to others that place a premium on the ability to think and speak well.
 
Level

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RE: Truth!?! Truth!?! - 4/10/2006 9:48:46 PM   
SusanofO


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I started thinking about this when I got home just now. I really need to refine my profile. Tonight before I go to sleep I am changing one little thing: How I define my (current) "role" to: "Submissive aspiring to eventual slavery".

I read last week in a few different places on these boards (and I knew this already but it took this thread (and other threads here today on the boards, but especially this one - to make me stop and do something about it).

I remember reading that the basic difference between a "slave" and "sub" is that a "slave" has given over total and complete "control" to her Master - which - bottom line - means (to me) - her limits are her Master's limits.

And while I am willing to re-visit a "soft" limit and perhaps (who knows?) even a "hard" limit (w/the right person) - I do have a couple of them. Which to me means I am a submissive and not a slave (for now). I can't "turn control over" to anyone right now as far as my limits- I don't know what anyone else's "limits" are - and am still "fuzzy" as far as a few of my own.

I am "okay" with that definition of the difference between the two roles - it's the clearest one I've seen - so I'm going with it (plus - it leaves the least amount of room - the way I see things right now - to potentially "screw w/someone's head" - which I would Not want to do).

I was driving around tonight (thinking)  and out-right asked myself:
Just What Am I doing?!re: That profile of mine?

Side-note: I  appreciate these boards a lot -and I gave this thread a quick "read through" this morning - but - I sometimes re-read whole threads more than once (I like to read and  also sometimes a second glance causes me to re-think how something someone has said applies to me - other times they can be just interesting I think.

I sometimes really ponder what other people write (and am sure others do the same) - some of these folks I am slightly acqauinted with perhaps - others not at all - but that doesn't matter to me - I scan the boards and there is a Lot of "food for thought" sometimes I am so glad is available. 

I am sure some don't realize other people - they'll probably never, ever know many of them, or realize maybe how many there could be - who might sometimes read things they've written over and think them through for themselves (one more time).

Doing that proved valuable to me today because I re-read - before I left my house this morning - what I wrote in my comment in this thread - and I balked.

I was thinking: Whaaat?! - exactly - just is it I am saying here?
Hmmm. Better "crystallize" that profile (have fun writing it) but do "hone it" - or you might be sorry later. Re-think it - (I said to myself). It's important (sometimes it may be less important, or not at all - but for me this time - it's important) .
It's not work for me - it's (mostly) fun (and for my own benefit, too).

Anyway - I know I see some people really "nail it" sometimes when they answer someone else's question or just make a comment in a thread (probably no surprise to anyone else on these boards - but that twas a valuable 'revelation' for me today - as it regards needing to rewrite my profile.

Thanks, people -  people simply just answering and posting their own comments today really made me think. (I tend to be pretty much a self-motivated type - but not without an 'impetus', which I got).  

I suppose my  profile might be contsrued as (perhaps) "appealing" - But that's not the entire and only goal in writing it for me- and that really for some reason hit home for me when I was riding around tonight in my car.
A thought occurred to me. Re: Writing my profile. In general, it was:

"Don't do anything that will ultimately be stupid - this is your chance to be yourself - for heaven's sake don't blow it for yourself by trying too much to be "everything" (I know I can be good at that when I want to be - and I truly can envision really wanting to be "everything" for someone - and having that be the reason - I'd certainly try my best to do it -but - Realisitcally speaking... now (vs. later, if one must choose now or later, and I think it might pay to make a choice in this regard) Is probably an important time to note a few "needs" of my own.

I could also give more "specific" information that may better hone in on "who I am" vs. just "who I want to be for - whoever - maybe someday; in any case - it could use some work. It really gives not much an idea to anyone that I might have a few "expectations" - even listing things I most appreciate seeing  in other people. I am not being "self-critical" except in a realisitc way for my own benefit here, btw.
It will be fun (I like to write). In the next few days (starting tommorrow) I am re-writing it. May not be "drastic" changes - but it will definitely be changed. Thanks. 

-Susan 



< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/10/2006 10:56:13 PM >


_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Truth!?! Truth!?! - 4/10/2006 11:32:20 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline
This thread has been incredibly valuable - and at just the right time, too. - Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/10/2006 11:34:38 PM >


_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to plantlady64)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Truth!?! Truth!?! - 4/10/2006 11:46:25 PM   
slave4Darby3d


Posts: 106
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
The truth starts within one's self.  If you are not true to yourself, there is no possibility of being truthful to another.

That being said...Truth is there - but the TRUST must be earned to get to the Truth of who I am.  Otherwise, I keep myself to myself.  Is there anything wrong with this?  Nope.  Not even the "sin of omission".

I've seen nothing that indicates that just because I express myself in this way that it has to be worn on my exterior, painted on my walls for all to see, poised on my lips for all to hear.  In fact, I OBJECT to people wearing their private business out in public.  I get nuts when a gay person or couple shoves their private business in my face and expects me to recognize them for it.  I chose to be much more private.  And, as such, I let trust bring out my secret truth.

Your results may vary...

(in reply to METOO)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Truth!?! Truth!?! - 4/11/2006 12:09:38 AM   
CERCKL


Posts: 1039
Joined: 3/4/2006
Status: offline
quote:

I live in Timbuktoo



Hey, we're neighbors...

C

_____________________________

AND I AM TOO AN ASSHOLE, I HAVE REFERENCES!!!

"Please, please, please believe me, I really am an asshole. All that Enlightenment and Higher Learning shit was all a ruse."

(in reply to slavejali)
Profile   Post #: 60
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