RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities?

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RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Cit... - 4/12/2006 6:39:22 PM

Level

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnockerBockers

When the secret society of the scull and bones and the directors of that major arms manufacturers including the Bush Clan and the former British Prime-Minister John Major, are voted out of power so they cannot engage in warmongering,extraordinary rendition,torture and illegal detention and invade countries to steal oil and other natural resouces. Then we may have military services free of utility has the private armies of corporate America. Bush wants to invade everyone with natural resouces, Venuzuala,Iran and others. The isrealis,south africans,australians,indians,pakistanis,british and french ,russians and chinese,all have nuclear weapons. So why not iran? They have a right to defend themselves against bullies with nuclear arsenals. No nation has any right to dictae which other sovereign nation can or cannot have nuclear weapons. How they treat their own citizens is between them and their citizens.They dont interfer in internal American affairs and we should not interfer in theirs.

Who wrote this, the editors of The Nation??

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RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Cit... - 4/13/2006 12:14:50 AM

UtopianRanger

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux

Good idea in theory, bad idea in practice. In principle, I'd support some kind of national service program that allows young people of a certain age to either join the military, or the Peace Corps, or something. The problem with that idea in practice is I think the military is the best judge of what type of people it needs, and everything I've read says the Generals believe that a professional military is far superior to a military of conscripts. The US military is doing just fine right now without any kind of draft or compulsory service. So, I'm not sure what a national military obligation would do right now apart from satisfy a few people who have a political axe to grind.

Edit: sorry Iron Bear, that's not addressed to you personally. It's addressed to the question in general.

Normally I would agree this assessment, but when you factor in the IDF, you have an exception to the rule. From fighter pilots and tank battalions to Special Forces, the IDF is one of the best trained and most courageous fighting forces in the world.

And while I know there are a few exclusions, I'm fairly certain Israel requires all of its young men and women to serve two and maybe three years of mandatory military service.

- R

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

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RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Cit... - 4/13/2006 12:21:37 AM

UtopianRanger

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnockerBockers

When the secret society of the scull and bones and the directors of that major arms manufacturers including the Bush Clan and the former British Prime-Minister John Major, are voted out of power so they cannot engage in warmongering,extraordinary rendition,torture and illegal detention and invade countries to steal oil and other natural resouces. Then we may have military services free of utility has the private armies of corporate America. Bush wants to invade everyone with natural resouces, Venuzuala,Iran and others. The isrealis,south africans,australians,indians,pakistanis,british and french ,russians and chinese,all have nuclear weapons. So why not iran? They have a right to defend themselves against bullies with nuclear arsenals. No nation has any right to dictae which other sovereign nation can or cannot have nuclear weapons. How they treat their own citizens is between them and their citizens.They dont interfer in internal American affairs and we should not interfer in theirs.

Who wrote this, the editors of The Nation??

Level

Yup.... that would be my bet. Who else could come up with something like that besides Katrina Vanden Heuvel and limousine liberals!

- R

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

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RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Cit... - 4/13/2006 1:05:54 AM

ScooterTrash

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadamShy

I am a retired Veteran
but my opinion ... Not in this war... its NOT our War .. It never was .. it was made to seem Like our war because of 9/11 but it never ended up being about that after all...

lets fight for Our own country ... lets take care of our own people .

I have to actually agree, even though not opposed normally, this would NOT be a good time to start anything compulsary just for that very reason. If I had to make a choice now, like I did back then, on whether to go in voluntarily or not...I can't say for sure what that decision would be. This one stands out as the war where you can't figure out who the good guys are.

Anyway, I'm off to Washington D.C...wish I could say it was to straighten all this out, but I regret that's beyond my control. I'll be at the Smithsonian, doing bike stuff in the area and picking up our slaves personal items. Have fun on the boards (waves).

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RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Cit... - 4/13/2006 1:56:24 AM

IronBear

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnockerBockers

What SAS? The British 22nd Special Air Service Regiment or its brother counterpart the Australian Special Air service. The limies now also have the Special Reconnaissance Regiment, 148 meiktila battery RA, Spinx Battery RA, The RM Special Boat Service(battalion size),the RM Mountain and Arctic Warfare Cadre(Company size), 14 Intelligence Company(tri service unit where all ranks relinquish their rank and dont hold rank and elect their own detachment commanders during the 2 year posting).

Special Air Servive, Australian Regular Army.. I resigned the Queen's Commission to go to Nam with the US SF. Yep we still call it as the Queen's Commission and will continue to do so unless the Republicans here make Aussie a republic at which time I shall be leaving the country of my birth and taking citizenship in another.. (My first loyalty is to the British Crown and blood ties me to the House of Winsor in a devious and tenuous way)..

_____________________________

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Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

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RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Cit... - 4/13/2006 6:45:47 AM

Moloch

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

(My first loyalty is to the British Crown and blood ties me to the House of Winsor in a devious and tenuous way)..

*Glares and IronBear and grumbles something under his breath*
Sorry, I have too many Scottish and Irish friends, who alos feel very "strongly" about the "British Crown"

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RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Cit... - 4/13/2006 6:54:04 AM

caitlyn

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Two years of service would mean adding eleven million people to the payroll in addition to the military we are already paying for.

If you take out college students, unemployment rates for young people is very low.

All any of these plans would put a bunch of people on the government payroll, that are out working anyway.

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RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Cit... - 4/13/2006 7:10:01 AM

caitlyn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger
I definitely think either two years in the hot sun of Yuma or two years cleaning shower stalls with a small brush would make many young people more self-disciplined and better, more productive citizens.

It's not my generation that is largely living off the government. I find your statement inaccurate, and insulting.

If you want to help America, think up a plan to stop your generation from spending money like it's only made of paper. What would help us, is a fiscally responsible government, and a middle class that puts money in savings, rather than giving in to the temptations of 80K German cars and big screens made in Japan that are two inches larger than then the one they already have.

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RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Cit... - 4/13/2006 7:11:41 AM

FisherKing1963

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I am not so sure that compulsory service is such a good idea in a free society. For one thing, it creates a large, bloated standing Army as opposed to a more streamlined, professional force. On the other hand, conscription would provide the generations of young men with the solid opportunity to heed what Bill Clinton called 'The Summons to Citizenship'; a curious mantra for a draft dodger which Bill borrowed from Prof. Carroll Quigley, author of the monumental and seldom read 'Tragedy and Hope'.
There are other, safer avenues of initiation for aspiring men such as team sports, clubs, fraternaties which serve to steer eager youngsters away from school shooting, car jacking and ecstasy. Unfortunately, and especially in the inner cities, gangs and prison are for many, a baptism of fire into the creed of self-destruction.
In his excellent book 'Iron John': a book about men, poet Robert Bly speaks of the feminization of the Western man, and the immediate need in our society for such iniatory rites-of-passage as those which more primitave cultures had. Australian Aborigines for instance, send young men off on 'Walkabout' to face themselves and become Men.
In 3D space/time we need Men to be Men, and Women to be Women. It is indeed a thin line that divides, but plenty of gray area on both sides to move about.
The notion that evolution directs us toward the physical breakdown of the distinction between the sexes is a misguided one....The Alchemical Great Work, the Marriage of the Masculine and Feminine hemispheres of the mind which leads to that Androgynous, balanced state of grace is an inner, spiritual work that will never be affected by Women dying in combat or playing football, or by Men engaging in sensitivity training or the ridiculous and morbid self-attention of the 'Metrosexual'.
-FK63

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RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Cit... - 4/13/2006 8:13:24 AM

Turdstool

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All the anglo saxon nations have blood ties to the mother country. Australia will definately become a republic and so to will the United Kingdom eventually has it is subsumed into the European Union. Its constituant nations being broken up and becomming entirely self governing within the European Union. Stay put and do not migrate,Australia is a great country with a wonderful future,unless the chinese and the indians start to flex their emeging superpower muscles in the comming decades.

< Message edited by Turdstool -- 4/13/2006 8:14:08 AM >

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RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Cit... - 4/13/2006 8:18:03 AM

mnottertail

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[qoute]
unless the chinese and the indians start to flex their emeging superpower muscles in the comming decades.
[/quote]

They will that.

Ron

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Cit... - 4/13/2006 9:19:35 AM

cloudboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

It's not my generation that is largely living off the government. I find your statement inaccurate, and insulting.

If you want to help America, think up a plan to stop your generation from spending money like it's only made of paper. What would help us, is a fiscally responsible government, and a middle class that puts money in savings, rather than giving in to the temptations of 80K German cars and big screens made in Japan that are two inches larger than then the one they already have.

If we had to identify the most worthless generation of alltime, I would quickly vote for the BABY BOOMERS. As a lot, they've been selfish to the core. I've never quite grasped the transition they made from the 60s into first the me-generation of the 70s, than Reaganites of the 80s, and a clear policy of forever pushing gov't spending burdens onto Gen-X and other more recent generations.

As a caveat, some of my most beloved friends are Boomers who somehow remained true to the values of the 60s: self exploration, tolerance, experimentation, boundless curiosity, and a continuing antipathy / distrust for authority. They are, however, a minority in the larger group.

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RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Cit... - 4/13/2006 9:24:03 AM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

..... the IDF is one of the best trained and most courageous fighting forces in the world.

And while I know there are a few exclusions, I'm fairly certain Israel requires all of its young men and women to serve two and maybe three years of mandatory military service.

- R

difficult sell in the UK at the moment. A member of the IDF shot dead a british journalist for having the temerity to want to make a film about Palestinian children's experience ( he has already planned the follow up film, about an Israeli kids view). That same IDF investigated the shooting, by the expedience of having the unit commander investiagte his own troops. Oddly enough he found no foul play, although the dead body of the journalist, shot through the head, was a bit of an embarrasment.
Conscript soldiers tend to act in a way that reflects their cultures baser instincts. At least a soldier who joins up makes an honourabler decision, they tend to understand that having a gun does not give them the right to use it.

Another poster here said something along the lines that the military enable the rest of the population to carry on their lives.........surely that's putting the cart before the horse. We dont make civilisations so we can have and use armies, surely civilisation is more about finding ways not to use the military.

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RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Cit... - 4/13/2006 9:45:18 AM

IronBear

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moloch

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

(My first loyalty is to the British Crown and blood ties me to the House of Winsor in a devious and tenuous way)..

*Glares and IronBear and grumbles something under his breath*
Sorry, I have too many Scottish and Irish friends, who alos feel very "strongly" about the "British Crown"

I too can understand that my friend. I'me quater Scottish and quater Irish. Whilst both fought the Briotishon nukmerous occasions there still is blood ties to be considered

My comments about having those leaving schoopl and having nowhere to go was bassed on much of our youth who have no or little self esteme, pride or disclipline (self or otherwise) even if they never made it into a further education or trade apprenticeship I know from experience with others the difference which can be made when they have suceeded in even the most routine things lige a 20km route march with full battle gear and other physiocal challanges. The pride of being accepted and being valued for themselves... Ok so ir wont work for some but for those it will work for it is value for money.. At least for two years they are paid a good wage, clothed and fed.

In discussions such as this in other forums, how many of the ex military look down on mercinary troops who are often thrown in to do jobs which Governments don't want to own up to being involved in.... The only real difference between a good merc team and a Governmet military team is that one fights for money (Usually) and not because they have no choice.. I've been able to choose my fights and opps as a merc. Even when I didn't always agree with the Government/s I did agree with the cause.. At least we were under no illusion that the Military (Official) or anyone else was prommising to get us back.. If we couldn't do it ourselves, we didn't get back.....

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Cit... - 4/13/2006 11:11:06 AM

MrRodgers

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Compulsory military service is a draft. A draft was instituted during our civil war and in Needler vs Lane the Pa. Supreme Court ruled in 1863 that this compulsory service was in violation of the Pa. Consitution, they having amended the state consitution before the country amended the US Constitution. The court reasoned, as one might, that to force compulsory military service was involuntary servitude just exactly what the civil war was about anyway. There were other constituional issues that would have applied to every war since, but only those declared by congress. One is that we are not to have a peace-time standing national army for more than two years. We had or were to have only...state militias who after a declaration of war would fight as the US Army. Not surprisingly, our politicains have no problem today with both a draft and sending these draftees to wars...undeclared as in everywar since WWII. It makes no difference constitutionally whether or not we were or are a part of a coaltion...since 1950, they have ALL been unconstitutional wars and any concurrent draft or compulsory service is involuntary servitude and is inherently unconstitutional. Now we don't need a draft because we have enough otherwise poor men to fill the ranks of the great 'unwashed.' (Grunts & Deck apes) I make no issue at all with career or reserve military electees, since that is of course, entirely voluntary.

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RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Cit... - 4/13/2006 2:24:54 PM

kisshou

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I think a year of compulsorary service would be a good thing.

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RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Cit... - 4/13/2006 2:41:09 PM

Saratov

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Yep! 2-3 years of Gov't service, either in the military or serving in some other role. Other countries do it, both male and female, and have for many years.... seems to work for them.

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RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Cit... - 4/13/2006 3:26:20 PM

GADomCpl

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Given the fact that I am going on 7 years in the Army, and only have another 13 to go, I think I have no problem speaking about this. Should military service be manditory? Absolutely not. The military is not for everyone. I have seen this first hand many times. Plus like others have pointed out, I definately don't want someone to be covering my back because he has to (chances are thats the first guy I'm gonna shot cause if you can't trust your battle buddy, hes no good to you at all). I do however think that manditory federal service for both sexes is a great idea. Be it military, peace corps, park ranger, boys and girls club, ect. I think everyone should play a small part in making our country what it is today.

Troy

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RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Cit... - 4/13/2006 3:44:35 PM

FisherKing1963

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::I do however think that manditory federal service for both sexes is a great idea. Be it military, peace corps, park ranger, boys and girls club, ect. I think everyone should play a small part in making our country what it is today. ::

Spoke like a good little facist...keep it up troop...I see a comfortable slot in the beauracracy in your future.
Mandatory Federal Service for males and females?...got socialism? a federal boys and girls club? like a hitler youth kind of thing?
You think everyone should play a small part in making our country what it is today?...and what is that?...a vast slave labor camp devoid of basic individual rights?
Listen to yourself.

-FK63

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RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Cit... - 4/13/2006 8:01:08 PM

FelinePersuasion

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Nope service shouldn't be mandatory. I myself have zero interest into going to war or fighting or any service military army stuff, and personally I don't qualify to even if I wanted to I'd at best only be good for a desk job.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnockerBockers

It has been a while since the draft. We have always lived in a violent society but it has become far more so since the draft ended. Should all able bodied men and women be made to serve 3 years in the service and 3 years in the reserve,as a part of the right of Citizenship? Defending one's nation should be a noblis oblige and a right of passage. Who agrees/disagrees?

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