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RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/20/2010 12:10:59 PM

ranja

Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
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i do not think most people really think they should be permitted to do this as such, i think most people realise that you can not safe the people who do not want to be saved, and that to force your 'help' onto unwilling victims means endangering our freedoms in general.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

Post #: 141

RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/20/2010 4:31:23 PM

Elisabella

Posts: 3939
Status: offline

quote:

The reality is that someone who could consent to this would not be considered mentally competent by either medical or legal standards. Obviously this girl needs serious help, and sadly she hooked up with one of the worst kinds of predators.

Sorry but you really can't use medical or legal standards as a defense here.

As far as legal standards go - BDSM breaks those standards. There is no such thing as the right to consent to being assaulted. In fact, "BDSM contracts" have been used to prove that the slave partner was brainwashed and incompetent, even writing out explicitly "I consent to this" is proof that you...well...didn't consent.

As far as medical standards - those evolve more quickly. Right now they say anorexia is a disorder. 50 years ago they said homosexuality was a disorder.

Did gay people somehow become mentally competent when the DSM changed? I'm guessing that you think it was right to arrest people for sodomy back when both the DSM and the law said sodomy was wrong?

As far as the girl needing serious help, I agree, believe me I do, I think she's making all the wrong choices here. But there are a lot of people here whose families think they need serious help. Anorexia is outside your comfort zone...lots of people have vanilla mums who would call the cops on their daughter's partner if they found out she was into being beaten or gang rape roleplay.

You say "what sort of sane person starves themselves" other people would say what sort of sane person does half the things listed as "interests" on the profiles side of the site.

Either adults are able to do really fucked up and stupid things to themselves, that other people consider a sign of mental disorder, or they aren't.

< Message edited by Elisabella -- 6/20/2010 4:32:19 PM >

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

Post #: 142

RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/20/2010 5:47:06 PM

PeonForHer

Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline

Mistoferin,

In the UK, I'd consider myself in a worrying legal situation in your position. I'd be concerned that I could face criminal action in the courts for standing by, while in possession of the facts, and allowing a manslaughter or murder to take place. Re legal action, I'm also just a tiny bit worried that I could be in trouble for reading about your friend here, at CM and on this thread, and not warning you to do something about it.

So, assuming that all makes sense, you'll understand why I'm now saying: Please do something to help save your friend, assuming she really is in the kind of trouble she seems to be in.

I should also add, I've taught moral philosophy at postgraduate level. However, I do know when to get out of the classroom seminar and do something. This, for me, is very much one of those occasions.

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 143

RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/20/2010 5:47:39 PM

Ialdabaoth

Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
Either adults are able to do really fucked up and stupid things to themselves, that other people consider a sign of mental disorder, or they aren't.

Or, more realistically, each of us lets people do the things *we* personally want them to do, and tries to stop them from doing the things we don't, and we don't really put too much thought into it beyond that.

Because it's all about what *I* want, right? :)

(in reply to Elisabella)

Post #: 144

RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/20/2010 6:04:26 PM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
Because it's all about what *I* want, right? :)

Well actually no. Didn't you get the memo? It's all about what *I* want.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)

Post #: 145

RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/20/2010 6:42:54 PM

marie2

Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Mistoferin,

In the UK, I'd consider myself in a worrying legal situation in your position. I'd be concerned that I could face criminal action in the courts for standing by, while in possession of the facts, and allowing a manslaughter or murder to take place.

But then couldn't any of us be in a 'worrying legal situation' having knowledge of all the people around here who openly speak about getting whipped and caned and cut? We are then in "possession of the facts, and allowing" assault to take place.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 146

RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/20/2010 7:17:22 PM

PeonForHer

Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2
But then couldn't any of us be in a 'worrying legal situation' having knowledge of all the people around here who openly speak about getting whipped and caned and cut? We are then in "possession of the facts, and allowing" assault to take place.

Yep, quite possibly!

Another spectre that arises is that of some newspaper column that goes 'The kinkster community was told about the imminent danger to this woman's life, but instead of pressing the point to the concerned thread-starter that she should act, immediately, to help her friend, they decided to gas at length about the fundamentals of kink-philosophy'.

Jeez.

Another thing that gets me is that so often I see the precisely the opposite sort of phenomenon here. Someone will turn up on these forums to talk about his or her weird, but fairly innocuous-sounding activity. There'll be a little discussion along the lines of 'yeah, fun!' or 'no, yuck' . . . . and then someone will dutifully warn of the possible dangers of said activity. But, then, right after, there's this weird snowball effect and the end result is pretty much everyone, shouting in alarm, 'Don't do it! You could DIE, I say!'.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 6/20/2010 7:18:23 PM >

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com

(in reply to marie2)

Post #: 147

RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/20/2010 7:43:44 PM

marie2

Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2
But then couldn't any of us be in a 'worrying legal situation' having knowledge of all the people around here who openly speak about getting whipped and caned and cut? We are then in "possession of the facts, and allowing" assault to take place.

Yep, quite possibly!

Another spectre that arises is that of some newspaper column that goes 'The kinkster community was told about the imminent danger to this woman's life, but instead of pressing the point to the concerned thread-starter that she should act, immediately, to help her friend, they decided to gas at length about the fundamentals of kink-philosophy'.

Jeez.

Another thing that gets me is that so often I see the precisely the opposite sort of phenomenon here. Someone will turn up on these forums to talk about his or her weird, but fairly innocuous-sounding activity. There'll be a little discussion along the lines of 'yeah, fun!' or 'no, yuck' . . . . and then someone will dutifully warn of the possible dangers of said activity. But, then, right after, there's this weird snowball effect and the end result is pretty much everyone, shouting in alarm, 'Don't do it! You could DIE, I say!'.

Yeah, that's what runs through my mind when people want to do breath play and any number of things that I consider crazy. But once again, it's a personal choice with regards to how much risk a person is comfortable with. Not how much risk "I'm" comfortable with.

You could even take this case out of the kink context and say it's not a kink. But then you still have the issue of it's still a choice. Whether we call it a kink or call it a girl's will to obey a moron, it's still her choice, no matter how uncomfortable it may cause some of us to feel.

On the legal stuff. I don't concern myself with it. We're having a hypothetical conversation on a chat forum, that we have no real evidence of as "fact". This is not to say that I'm doubting what Erin has stated him. It's to say that we're not ear witnesses or eyewitnesses to a crime taking place. If this really is going on, I'm sure her family has more pull and "culpability" than strangers on a message board who can't even identify who this girl is.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 148

RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/20/2010 8:11:04 PM

PeonForHer

Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2You could even take this case out of the kink context and say it's not a kink. But then you still have the issue of it's still a choice. Whether we call it a kink or call it a girl's will to obey a moron, it's still her choice, no matter how uncomfortable it may cause some of us to feel.

Me, I'd interfere, and try to stop this thing happening (if indeed it is), then deal with that discomfort. I can then engage in discussions about freedom of choice, rationality or otherwise, diminished responsbility - etc, etc. Same as I would if I knew someone had put a knife to her own throat. As I said: for me, this wouldn't be the time for such arguments.

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com

(in reply to marie2)

Post #: 149

RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/20/2010 8:19:08 PM

DarlingSavage

Posts: 2808
Joined: 9/18/2009
Status: offline

I know what pro ana is, but what's pro mia? Pro missing in action?

_____________________________

<-- Easily amused.
<-- Easily impressed.

Strangers have the BEST candy!

Puppy dogs are my favorite people!

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 150

RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/20/2010 11:04:26 PM

Elisabella

Posts: 3939
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarlingSavage

I know what pro ana is, but what's pro mia? Pro missing in action?

Bulimia

(in reply to DarlingSavage)

Post #: 151

RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/21/2010 1:14:46 AM

crazyml

Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

quote:

The reality is that someone who could consent to this would not be considered mentally competent by either medical or legal standards. Obviously this girl needs serious help, and sadly she hooked up with one of the worst kinds of predators.

Sorry but you really can't use medical or legal standards as a defense here.

As far as legal standards go - BDSM breaks those standards. There is no such thing as the right to consent to being assaulted. In fact, "BDSM contracts" have been used to prove that the slave partner was brainwashed and incompetent, even writing out explicitly "I consent to this" is proof that you...well...didn't consent.

As far as medical standards - those evolve more quickly. Right now they say anorexia is a disorder. 50 years ago they said homosexuality was a disorder.

Did gay people somehow become mentally competent when the DSM changed? I'm guessing that you think it was right to arrest people for sodomy back when both the DSM and the law said sodomy was wrong?

As far as the girl needing serious help, I agree, believe me I do, I think she's making all the wrong choices here. But there are a lot of people here whose families think they need serious help. Anorexia is outside your comfort zone...lots of people have vanilla mums who would call the cops on their daughter's partner if they found out she was into being beaten or gang rape roleplay.

You say "what sort of sane person starves themselves" other people would say what sort of sane person does half the things listed as "interests" on the profiles side of the site.

Either adults are able to do really fucked up and stupid things to themselves, that other people consider a sign of mental disorder, or they aren't.

I do (I think) see the point you're trying to make but I disagree over the question of consent and its importance as a decence, I think that the question of consent, and a person's mental competence to consent, is still really really important.

I agree completely that "consent" isn't a defence against assault in most places I'm aware of, but it would be very likely to have a bearing on sentence etc etc.

You make a great point about the evolution of standards, and the homosexuality example is a good one, but I think it's a little moot. If you're tried for something that's illegal, the court uses whatever standards are current at that time. Back in the day, when someone was being tried for buggery, saying "Oh for goodness, sake, in a generation's time this'll be perfectly legal" is likely to cut it as a defence.

The ability to consent is defined by current law, and current medical/psych thinking. I would say that person "A" is much much more likely to be prosecuted for spanking someone who is incapable of consent (for reason of age, intoxication, mental health) than someone who spanks a clearly adult, functional person. More importantly, the issue of consent has a bearing on whether it's just assault or whether it's a sexual assault, which typically carries dramatically different penalties.

[Edited to fix wording]

< Message edited by crazyml -- 6/21/2010 1:16:47 AM >

(in reply to Elisabella)

Post #: 152

RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/21/2010 1:19:14 AM

ranja

Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
Status: offline

A while back there was a thread from a woman about positive reinforcement and she used the example of being rewarded for her good behaviour with her preferred brand of cigarettes rather than having to smoke her masters brand of cigarettes.
When i commented rather uppity that i thought that was a very stupid thing imo, many posters came down on me like a ton of bricks (luckily i like a good bash) and told me that was not the point... it was about reinforcement and how people went about that reinforcement was their personal business (my point being that letting your partner smoke themselves lungcancer not being so positive)
Unlike the cigarette thing which in my opinion is just so very stupid, i can actually see very easily how one wants to play a power game with food... i think the game is far more powerful than a thing with cigarettes would ever be and potentially a lot healthier as well, there is the snag though... how to prevent sickos from being sickos?

(in reply to Elisabella)

Post #: 153

RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/21/2010 4:17:34 AM

LafayetteLady

Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Sorry but you really can't use medical or legal standards as a defense here.

Actually those are the standards that are used.

quote:

As far as legal standards go - BDSM breaks those standards. There is no such thing as the right to consent to being assaulted. In fact, "BDSM contracts" have been used to prove that the slave partner was brainwashed and incompetent, even writing out explicitly "I consent to this" is proof that you...well...didn't consent.

As I mentioned earlier, BDSM within the context of the law is progressing. The cases that are typically tried occur when someone decides they no longer wish to participate, and that desire is ignored, or when a death occurs from some type of play gone wrong. These cases rightfully need to be examined by the courts. Why? Because that is what is allowing progress for changing times.

quote:

As far as medical standards - those evolve more quickly. Right now they say anorexia is a disorder. 50 years ago they said homosexuality was a disorder.

Did gay people somehow become mentally competent when the DSM changed? I'm guessing that you think it was right to arrest people for sodomy back when both the DSM and the law said sodomy was wrong?

This is really an "apples/oranges" kind of comparison, and I would expect more from you Elisabella. The fact of the matter is that homosexuality being "wrong" has always been based on a religious type of perspective, not health reasons.

Anorexia however is life threatening.

quote:

As far as the girl needing serious help, I agree, believe me I do, I think she's making all the wrong choices here. But there are a lot of people here whose families think they need serious help. Anorexia is outside your comfort zone...lots of people have vanilla mums who would call the cops on their daughter's partner if they found out she was into being beaten or gang rape roleplay.

To say that anorexia is outside my comfort zone would be incorrect. The girl is allowing someone else to endanger her life. Unlike breath play, gang rape roleplay, etc., there aren't "safety measures" that can be taken. There is no question that a 5'7" woman weighing 67 pounds is life threatening.

As for ranja's comment about the smoking, the big problem with that is whether or people like or approve of smoking, it is legal.

Sadly, only the OP seems to have been in touch with this person, the rest of us do not know her, live near her or are involved in her community. I think it is safe to assume that they are not active in their local BDSM community because I believe if they were, someone who knows them would not stand by and allow this to happen.

I have been told how it is so easy to speak on morals but more difficult to act on them. For me that isn't the case. I also tend to believe that many people who continue to talk about her "right" to make this decision, if face to face with this young woman who is withering away day by day would also take a different position.

The bottom line is that some things are, like it or not, simply wrong. As I mentioned before this "couple" could have "played" with this concept quite safely without endangering her life.

Peon is quite right that even bystanders can be held accountable for standing by watching it happen. Not the people on this site, because we have no idea who these people actually are which prevents us from taking action. But it is sad that her parents seem to be aware and worried and are not doing anything.

You say "what sort of sane person starves themselves" other people would say what sort of sane person does half the things listed as "interests" on the profiles side of the site.

Either adults are able to do really fucked up and stupid things to themselves, that other people consider a sign of mental disorder, or they aren't.

(in reply to Elisabella)

Post #: 154

RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/21/2010 5:52:32 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

I would like to take a moment to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread so far...and also take a moment to give a bit of an update. I have learned a great deal from reading the comments here and I have used much of it in conversations with her over the last few days. I'd really like to thank everyone for sharing your opinions here, they have certainly given me a lot of great information to take to her.

As for the update...I have been speaking with her and as I said, I have shared much of the information that you great folks have provided here. I have also been speaking with her about her views on slavery and M/s relationships and providing her with other, sometimes opposing, examples of how others view the topic. I figured that at her age (not meant to be a criticism) that it is likely that her experience with the many different ways people engage in these relationships is probably limited. In that I was right, as her only real understanding of it all is the example that has been laid out by her "Master". I believe that her views on that are changing, at least to the extent that she is beginning to question a few things. She has also allowed me to speak with her brother who is working hard to get her to consent to treatment...and he believes that she is pretty close to doing exactly that. I should also say that, while he is trying to allow her to come to that decision on her own for the sake of not causing further injury to their own relationship....he has stated to me that he does have a limit to how long he will wait before interceding and forcing the issue. He was involved with her prior hospitalization and he is concerned that he lost a lot of her trust over it...but he is willing to go back down that same road again.

I know that is probably not exactly the outcome that some folks want at this point but I just wanted to let everyone know that it IS being worked on.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

Post #: 155

RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/21/2010 8:26:36 AM

LafayetteLady

Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline

Well, of course it would be nice if the outcome were immediate, lol. But that isn't how life works, is it?

She is lucky to have you in her life to talk to, although I'm sure her moron would disagree. Hopefully she will live long enough to realize how much her brother loves her that he would risk their relationship to save her life.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 156

RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/21/2010 8:37:38 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

Well, of course it would be nice if the outcome were immediate, lol. But that isn't how life works, is it?

No, unfortunately it's not. I have to say that I wish it were though. I saw her on her webcam the other day, she was showing me a new kitten that her "Master" brought her. Wow, 67 lbs really is unbelievably thin, especially when you see it in motion. So yes, every passing minute is scary. It would be easy to just close the book on this and not look back...but I was blessed with this damn conscience thing...and being a mom myself I just keep thinking "but what if it were MY 20 yr old daughter?". So yes, lots of folks probably think I am sticking my nose where it doesn't belong...but I don't think I can live with the alternative. Yes, she consented....but I don't know that I am convinced she understands exactly what that means. When I was 20 I pretty much thought I understood EVERYTHING. Looking backwards though I realize just how much I had no understanding of....the value of life being one of them.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

Post #: 157

RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/21/2010 10:03:36 AM

PeonForHer

Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

So yes, lots of folks probably think I am sticking my nose where it doesn't belong.

Screw them. The idea that 'freedom of individual choice' self-evidently trumps all other moral arguments is dogmatic crap. Go ahead and do what you can to help your friend stay alive - and the best of luck to you in circumstances that no-one would envy.

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 158

RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/21/2010 10:07:58 AM

crazyml

Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
Wow, 67 lbs really is unbelievably thin,

Fucking hell! I believe you are so doing the right thing.

Good luck!

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 159

RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/21/2010 10:27:10 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
So yes, lots of folks probably think I am sticking my nose where it doesn't belong...

Yeah, I gotta go with Peon on this one... dogmatic crap. I may be unwilling to legislate on this topic, but I'd sure as hell be willing to be a personal butt-insky.

Not everyone has drunk the "consenting adult" kool-aid.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 160

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