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The girl is allowing someone else to endanger her life.

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ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I know that is probably not exactly the outcome that some folks want at this point but I just wanted to let everyone know that it IS being worked on.

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ORIGINAL: porcelaine

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The situation is different, btw, for the individuals I've worked with who are "situationally anorexic" or "situationally bulimic" -- these are usually related to stress... either a traumatic situation in their lives or ongoing stressors that take their control away -- and the one thing they -can- control is their food intake.

Two emotions come to mind in the group mentioned -- fear and anger. And it shifts. Fear of losing control and abject fury when threatened. So where do those desiring emaciation fall in?

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To be honest, the individuals in this camp tend to be the ones who have the most health risks, and who often engage in other unhealthy behaviors as well. The individuals in this group also tend to choose attention-seeking means of managing their weight, rather than the quietly obsessive means used by the long-term pro-ana/pro-mia grouping.

What methods have you encountered thus far?

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Once I realized how xhe saw the world, I completely understood why xhe was obsessed with re-creating hir body in that image.

There are arguments regarding the presence of BDD. But my understanding of the disorder wouldn't allow me to make that assessment across the board for all ana/mia sufferers. I think there's a striking difference on how the body is seen. But I believe there's a scale involved. Grotesque to one is beautiful to another as you have eloquently expressed.

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ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Actually those are the standards that are used.

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As I mentioned earlier, BDSM within the context of the law is progressing. The cases that are typically tried occur when someone decides they no longer wish to participate, and that desire is ignored, or when a death occurs from some type of play gone wrong. These cases rightfully need to be examined by the courts. Why? Because that is what is allowing progress for changing times.

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Anorexia however is life threatening.

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To say that anorexia is outside my comfort zone would be incorrect. The girl is allowing someone else to endanger her life. Unlike breath play, gang rape roleplay, etc., there aren't "safety measures" that can be taken. There is no question that a 5'7" woman weighing 67 pounds is life threatening.

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As for ranja's comment about the smoking, the big problem with that is whether or people like or approve of smoking, it is legal.

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I have been told how it is so easy to speak on morals but more difficult to act on them. For me that isn't the case. I also tend to believe that many people who continue to talk about her "right" to make this decision, if face to face with this young woman who is withering away day by day would also take a different position.

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ORIGINAL: leadership527

Yeah, I gotta go with Peon on this one... dogmatic crap. I may be unwilling to legislate on this topic, but I'd sure as hell be willing to be a personal butt-insky.

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ORIGINAL: Elisabella

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ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Actually those are the standards that are used.

Right but my point is that those standards are also used against things that are seen as acceptable on these boards, so either those standards are applied uniformly or they're able to be questioned.

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I agree with this, and I also believe the law needs to progress to accept consensual self-destructive behaviors.

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Anorexia however is life threatening.

And that makes it inherently wrong?

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Not to get too rhetorical here but what if someone prefers to live a shorter life, fulfilling their desires, rather than a long life suppressing them?

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Do you not believe that people should be able to consent to dangerous behavior?

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So far the only thing I'm hearing that says she's not competent to consent to this is the fact that she wants to consent to this. And that's unacceptable to me.

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Exactly. And I think that anorexia should be legal too. If legislators agreed with me, would you?

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No, I wouldn't take a different position. I'd go against my morals for what I believed to be a greater good. There's a difference.

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ORIGINAL: Elisabella

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ORIGINAL: leadership527

Yeah, I gotta go with Peon on this one... dogmatic crap. I may be unwilling to legislate on this topic, but I'd sure as hell be willing to be a personal butt-insky.

I completely agree.

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ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Yep, the standards get applied uniformly. You seem to think that there are anti-BDSM police around every corner just waiting to bust people. Reality shows us this isn't true though, doesn't it? There are dungeons all around and they LEGALLY exist, and the local authorities know what occurs there.

Someone mentioned recently in another post about the people who like to be suspended by hooks. Certainly not something everyone wants to do, but no is busting down the doors where this occurs to make a bust are they?

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You fail to be able to examine the concept of why someone consents to "self-destructive" behaviors. All are not equal and can't be looked at as though they are. Take it out of "kink" for a minute. Skydiving could be viewed as self destructive, picking up strangers in bars, are two examples of what could be deemed "consensual self destructive behavior." They are not the same as some guy who wants a woman to cut off his penis, roast it and feed it to him. Those 3 behaviors have 3 different levels of reasoning, not all equal.

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Yes, that makes it inherently wrong. And before you jump on the smoking issue, like it or not, not every single person who smokes is going to get cancer and die, but every person who continues actively participating in an anorexic lifestyle is.

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If it is a rhetorical question, you aren't looking for an answer, so you seem to think the answer would be a resounding "yes." Do you say the same for the bi-polor person? The schizophrenic who prefers to live off their meds? The idea of never drawing the line is, as Peon said, a bunch of dogmatic crap.

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Once again, you seem to think that all "dangerous" behavior should be looked at the same, which simply is ignorant.

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Luckily for me, legislators will never agree with you, so I don't need to worry about it.

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But apparently you like to blow smoke out of your ass because you can't say you would "for the greater good" go against your morals, and then admit you would butt in. You state you think it should be legal, but agree you would be unwilling to legislate on it and would butt in.

You can't have it both ways. Either you act on what you believe is the "greater good" and ignore this girl believing she has the right to do it, or you would butt in and attempt to save her from her self.

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I am glad I don't live with that kind of indecisiveness or inability to stand by what I say.

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ORIGINAL: Elisabella

I'm envious that you've never been forced to choose between your emotions and your logic.

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ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
I'm lucky enough to be able to assess the emotional and the logical of a situation at the same time, also within seconds. I'm sure that sounds totally absurd to you, but then again, I'm not surprised. Morals and logic are not diametrically opposed in my world. I couldn't imagine living in your world where they seem to be.

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ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Even you stating that you would "butt in" for the "greater good" contradicts what you say. You can't think that she should have the right to choose and then claim for the greater good you would try to stop her. It's hypocritical.

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ORIGINAL: ranja

Smoking is (still) legal, but so is starving yourself. 
and with either strange behaviour the consensus seems to be that when a person gets too ill because of their silly carrying on, the state will force treatment on the patient to keep them alive as best as they can.

Anorexia is not necessarily lethal either... people do recover from it i have heard.
i do not know what the percentages are, but it seems to me that more people die of smoking related deceases than of starvation in our rich western society.

There was a woman in the UK recently who starved her 7 year old daughter to death. There was plenty of food in the kitchen but the girl was kept out with a stick. Somehow nobody picked up on this problem... i do not understand why no one missed this child at school even...
I am not entirely sure, but i think the woman has been put in a nut house...

And there are many parents who are supposed to be sane smoking the house out while their children are suffering asthma (an attack can be lethal)

If innocent children can perish like this, it is awfully clear that an adult who has chosen this life for themselves might just die too.

LafayetteLady: maybe mistoferin could ask the girl if she would talk to you, so you can try to make a difference...

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ORIGINAL: ranja

snarky? moi?

i suppose you assume she is gonna be alright then...

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ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

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ORIGINAL: porcelaine

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The situation is different, btw, for the individuals I've worked with who are "situationally anorexic" or "situationally bulimic" -- these are usually related to stress... either a traumatic situation in their lives or ongoing stressors that take their control away -- and the one thing they -can- control is their food intake.

Two emotions come to mind in the group mentioned -- fear and anger. And it shifts. Fear of losing control and abject fury when threatened. So where do those desiring emaciation fall in?

It depends, from what I've seen, on -why- they're seeking emaciation. I've met some folks for whom it's an aesthetic issue -- beauty comes from the starkness of the emaciated form. For others, it's a philosophical/spiritual/religious expression -- separation from "the flesh", and maintenance of the body in its barest, most minimalistic form. People who are pro-ana/pro-mia who have outlooks like these two examples, when they go pro-ana/pro-mia, are the more life-long, very dedicated practitioners. They also tend to know how to keep their bodies right at that edge between sparsity and destruction. Most pro-ana/pro-mia individuals won't seek out treatment, but they also don't tend to push themselves so far that they destroy themselves, either (though it can happen).

The situational group are the ones who seek out emaciation as a way to "vanish" from some trauma they're experiencing or have experienced. They are, quite literally, looking to 'disappear' -- to slip into the shadows where they won't be a fully-invested presence in this world. The individuals in this example tend to waste away -really- quickly, and these are the ones who tend to restrict themselves to 4 celery sticks, water, and a couple of cups of lettuce a day.

The hardest groups are the "mixed" groups. Pro-ana/pro-mia individuals who have been practitioners for a while, then go through some trauma and shift mind-sets from the structure and control of the long-term pro-ana/pro-mia to the instability and compulsive denial of the situational ana/mia. For these folks, they've been on the edge for a long time -- and the extra push from the trauma can kick them over into severe depressions (which, btw, come with deepening anorexia for many) and eventual shattering of their carefully planned regimens -- and, for many, hospitalization and even death.

Pro-ana and pro-ana/pro-mia individuals tend to be the ones who do the long-term minimalist body thing. Most solely pro-mia folks never get the whole "emaciation" thing going. Their focus is more on control issues. At the same time, most people who are strictly pro-mia tend to fit more into the situational group than the long-term participants group.

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To be honest, the individuals in this camp tend to be the ones who have the most health risks, and who often engage in other unhealthy behaviors as well. The individuals in this group also tend to choose attention-seeking means of managing their weight, rather than the quietly obsessive means used by the long-term pro-ana/pro-mia grouping.

What methods have you encountered thus far?

Everything from "public pukers" -- the folks who tell everyone that they're binge-ers, stuff themselves silly on everything in the table or house, then make a big deal about how much they ate and making sure everyone knows that they're going to go throw up -- to the two-lettuce-leaf crew... the individuals who go out with groups of friends and make it a point to let everyone know that they're on a "diet", and then proceed to pick out two lettuce leaves and nibble them for 3 hours, while everyone else in the social circle sits, uncomfortable, watching them pick over their "meal" (the "I'm only getting water because I'm on a diet" folks fit into this same category).  For many of these folks, giving them attention when they're NOT doing the strange food behaviors thing can gradually shift them into healthier behaviors -- especially for trauma/stress sufferers... the strange food behaviors in the most verbal of the group are, in a way, like the "suicide advertisers" who are looking for people to confirm their right to exist, and let them know that they are cherished and people are worried about them. I see a LOT of this category as a ministerial counselor, and most of them stay with me after seeing the psychiatrist that I refer to for an evaluation -- because they don't really need "treatment"... they need someone to listen, and to remind them that whatever happened doesn't take away their value, and that someone cares whether they live or die.

Just for comparison, a long-term pro-ana-mia will usually politely refuse invitations to "go out to eat" -- in general, they don't eat in public, since they know that their eating habits bother the people around them. The long-term pro-ana-mia also tends to choose methods like laxatives that are more 'invisible' than vomiting as a way to manage the 'mia' aspects of their body issues. Most of them supplement with liquid vitamins/minerals (since they lose so many nutrients in the quest to minimize calories), but they do so discretely. They tend to only shop with people who already be accepting, and avoid situations where their food consumption will be analyzed by bystanders. OTOH, most of the pro-ana-mia folks I've known, including my relative, are -very- social... they'll go shoe shopping, dancing/clubbing, RP-ing, etc., have a wide circle of friends that they do things with, hold down jobs/careers, and will be functional and often lots of fun... but they won't eat or discuss food around people whom they either don't know or don't trust to accept their choices, since they believe this will invariably lead to a ruined evening (and, to be honest, it often does, since the discussion usually leads to judgments and arguments.)

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Once I realized how xhe saw the world, I completely understood why xhe was obsessed with re-creating hir body in that image.

There are arguments regarding the presence of BDD. But my understanding of the disorder wouldn't allow me to make that assessment across the board for all ana/mia sufferers. I think there's a striking difference on how the body is seen. But I believe there's a scale involved. Grotesque to one is beautiful to another as you have eloquently expressed.

For me, at least for my relative, it's not a matter of body dysmorphic disorder... xhe doesn't have a distorted image of how hir body appears. Xhe genuinely just finds emaciated bodies to be attractive. I guess everyone has to like something -- for hir, it's that 'skin over bones' look.  Only about 25% of the people I've worked with over the years tended to fit into that "BDD" diagnosis, where they saw themselves as grossly obese when they were, in fact, severely underweight. The rest know -exactly- what they look like... they just have their own reasons for wanting their bodies to -be- that way.

+++I have to stress that I don't consider any of the above groupings to hold the group of individuals who fit in the category of "I'm starving myself because my coach/teacher/boss/designer/photographer/agent/keeper/parent/name-your-authority-figure-of-choice says I'm way too fat and if I don't get skinny I won't get X/I'll lose my job/my *** won't love me any more". This is a completely different issue having to do with damaged self-authority and often, insufficient experience or information to realize just how badly the person is damaging hirself (a failure of information often reinforced by the authority-figure in order to retain control of the individual in question and/or the outcomes of that individual's potential career/social life, etc.)

Calla